Vegetarians vs. meat-eaters: Standoff is over

reply to post by Annee


Never saw that old twilight episode but yes I can well imagine pretty spooky and thought provoking for sure.
True it is what I relate to ie Big brown eyes
I do respect and plant my own seedlings and tend them with care and get pleasure from seeing them flourish.
I guess I have a soft spot for animals that's why they are not on my menu

Originally posted by artistpoet

I guess I have a soft spot for animals that's why they are not on my menu

That's fine.

Its only a problem when people start judging others and criticizing their choices.

Originally posted by babybunnies
If eating meat is animal abuse, using your argument, why don't you consider eating vegetables to be vegetable abuse?

Well, if eating animals is not an abuse, why is eating humans one? New Zealand Maoris used to eat human flesh before their society was invaded by Europeans and their morality. I wonder if there was any Maori who rebelled and refused to eat his long-pig, and if he or she did, did they get any pudding?

Vegetables are usually at the end of their life when they are picked or pulled and if they weren't harvested they would begin to decay. Animals on the other hand are usually eaten at the beginning of their lives because their flesh is much more tender. Lamb is not lamb, it is a baby sheep. Animals have a much greater developed nervous system than a plant, so logically they would feel much more pain when experiencing their slaughter.

Then there are the fruits which a non-meat eater would eat. When you eat an apple, you do not kill the tree, when you pick a tomato you do not kill the vine. The science behind vegetarianism is not to say: "I am superior, because I don't kill anything!" That would be inviting the children of Dawkins to an impotent debate to which they would come running champing at the bit.

I myself would not call myself a vegetarian, but an omnivore. I decide day to day to day and moment to moment what I will eat. But I decide not to eat meat if there is an alternative. This process began experimentally. Someone earlier said something along the lines of: "I refuse to be a robot and follow the crowd!" Actually when the first food that is pureed and fed to you as a baby is meat, then you are already conditioned and following the crowd.

The crowd is the majority and what is the nature of the crowd from the earliest times until now? An aggressive predator born from the instincts of a terrestrial killer ape. Meat eating or the nutrition in meat did not make man intelligent - the act of increasingly becoming a topmost predator developed cunning to a high degree.

What is the difference between cunning and intelligence? When lions stalk their prey, hunting as a hierarchical cooperative team, are they employing cunning or intelligence?

But if you want to be a success in the human society as it stands today you must eat meat. Because meat is the sacrament of the religion of the predator and it is a predatory society. You can camouflage that fact in many ways as it is done, but underneath all that, the fact remains. This is where hypocrisy enters our world. Just like on the TV reality series 'Survivor' - the contestants are told they must cooperate as a team at the same time cunningly undermining each other so that in the end there can be only one winner.

In Eastern thought in the past, the lotus became symbolic because although it's roots were spread in the mud at the bottom of the lake it grew towards the light at the surface and blossomed a thousand petals of non mud-like beauty. Mankind arose from a barbaric predatory background and has grown to be a predatory barbarian. What changed? Only the technology, not the nature.

And so many people here on ATS are afraid of the break down of law and order on this planet and a descent into chaos for a very good reason.

reply to post by hawkiye

The same could be said about vegetables though. All the pesticides + genetic manufacturing is probably just as dangerous, not to mention some of these vegetarians drank milk and ate cheese, pumped full of hormones and preservatives. I agree as vast as the sample is, there are too many variables to call it.

Originally posted by el1jah
reply to post by hawkiye

 

The same could be said about vegetables though. All the pesticides + genetic manufacturing is probably just as dangerous, not to mention some of these vegetarians drank milk and ate cheese, pumped full of hormones and preservatives. I agree as vast as the sample is, there are too many variables to call it.

Good point - Organic and naturally reared/grown animals vegetables must be healthier then those which are full of chemicals and hormones. So yes the report is flawed in that it does not cover all angles

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by Chadwickus

 

I do not drink wine.. It does not agree with me. I am not preaching I am far from perfect. I am sitting here wearing a leather belt for example...

I eat red meat and I am wearing a cotton D-ring belt. Oh, the irony.

reply to post by purplemer


I read a separate article on this the other day. I believe this data was taken from people who ate RED meat on a DAILY BASIS. Did I misread the article? That is some pretty extreme meat eating in my opinion.

I always wondered how vegetarians would have fared the ice age.... I am willing to bet that a lot more mammoth hunters survived than berry gatherers

reply to post by purplemer


I would like a link to where these graphs are located. There are several inaccuracies that I would like to point out to the creator of this garbage.

If you choose to not eat meat then that is fine, it is your choice to make. Don't however try to make the ridicules argument that human are herbivores who have been tricked into eating meat for thousands upon thousands of years. It just lends credence to those who say that meat eaters are smarter.

reply to post by reficul
My grandmother lived to be 102 and she ate red meat, fish, vegetables, etc as often as possible. My uncle also lived to be 98 years old and he ate red meat and smoked cigarettes.

I understand the danger of eating processed food and how to avoid chemicals in our meat, etc but if we eat in moderation and avoid processed food as much as possible, we stand a great chance of living a long and healthy life.

reply to post by ZiggyStardust


Just speaking for myself I would never get angry or defensive over the fact that another person chooses to live off of a vegetarian diet. What does make me angry though is when vegetarians act smug, and superior because of their choice of diet.

For a conspiracy site people here are pretty close-minded on this issue. Don't you think the medical community, pharma, and the meat producing corporations want you fat, sick, and dulling your minds by eating slow fat animals? Of course getting off meat is one of the best things humans can do. But the advertising, the seasonings perfected to make your meat addict you, and the hard fact that giving up childhood habits which are hard-wired is very difficult stop even intelligent people from making this common sense step. Giving it up isn't easy, and the absolute hardest thing in the process is just to give it up. From then on, whew, health and amazing food (once your taste buds heal every meal is a feast) and the pure joy of eating naturally for the body that you have. Only the strong take this step, not the other way around. Sorry meateaters, but the vege "wimps" are the ones who did the only hard step in the whole process - deciding to give up meat and sticking to it.

reply to post by FOXMULDER147


Or their perpetual suffering.

reply to post by OMsk3ptic


Jains are actually at least consistent on this. They won't even eat food that has been left on a counter over night because it would kill the bacteria in the food, and they won't eat anything they have to kill even if it's a vegetable.

Their diet is the one that enlightened beings would follow.

reply to post by purplemer

It's not the quantity of life, it's the quality. If you think you can better enjoy life eating tofu and beans in lieu of a fat, juicy steak, I'd say you are probably insane, but that's fine. More meat for me. Nothing better than a juicy dead animal, especially one you killed yourself.
Who would want to live in world of old, dull, whiny, smug vegans anyway?

reply to post by yamammasamonkey


You hit the nail on the head there ...

Everyday is, in fact, too much red meat ... 3 times a week, with some fish and fowl thrown in the mix is more than adequate for your dietary needs ... of course, as much vegies and grains as you can handle in there as well

But it all comes down to sustainability ... Our world can't sustain us eating so much red meat ... it is an absolutely inefficient way of feeding the world in terms of time and energy not to mention the amount of land it takes up.

If we all had to grow our own food, including meat, we would all be looking at our diet differently.

reply to post by purplemer


The main issue here is suffering. I like eating meat, I want to continue eating meat, but I don't want the animals I eat to have suffered a great deal before being killed. The way its done in slaughterhouses now is inhumane. It's more the industry's fault than the consumer's fault. Human beings naturally eat meat, we've been doing it for thousands and thousands of years, it isn't going to stop, the best you can do is reform the industry to make the deaths of the animals as painless as possible and make their lives as comfy as possible before their killed.

Even chimpanzees and dolphins, two animals who are fairly similar to us in intelligence and empathy, eat their share of meat/animals.

Which diet is more beneficial, that's debatable, but really it doesn't matter, I don't know anyone who eats food based on how healthy it is. Even people who eat healthy also find healthy food that tastes good to them. You could manufacture the healthiest food in the world but if it taste absolutely horrible no one would switch to a diet that consisted only of that. Both vegetables and meat taste good, so people are going to continue eating both no matter what.

reply to post by Horza


Its a nice spin you've added about sustainability, the effects of the mass production of meat seem too much for the planet to handle.

One way meat eating can become sustainable is by eating bugs, I dont advocate killing anything of course, but its food for thought.
Do bugs have nutritious value?

most bugs (including locusts) have 9x more protein pound for pound than ground beef.

Insects absolutely have nutritious value such as protein. In addition, they also contain iron and loads of calcium and phosphorus -- not to mention vitamins such as that which is found in your daily multivitamin. Eating bugs is actually very common; there is an endless amount of bugs that it is perfectly okay to eat. In many countries, people continue to eat them to this day. Some examples are grasshoppers, field crickets, grubs and cicadas. Many people do not realize that they eat a small amount of bugs each day. There are bugs that very easily get into bread and, in fact, bugs continually get into the flour that is milled in granaries. The black specks in your bread could actually be bugs in the grain

reply to post by Horza

Everyday is, in fact, too much red meat ... 3 times a week, with some fish and fowl thrown in the mix is more than adequate for your dietary needs ... of course, as much vegies and grains as you can handle in there as well

The problem is one size does not fit all. Different people have different body types. Some body types require more protein and all bodies need complete proteins to some degree as mostly found in meats. The problem is more the mass production corporate model that uses hormones antibiotics and chemical because they do not raise the animals on their natural foods like grasses but on GMO grains and in unsanitary conditions that causes disease so they need more antibiotics and chemicals etc.

A balance of organic meats fruits and vegetables depending on body type is the best diet for humans IMO. Sprouted grains are a complete protein and much easier on the digestion and do not cause the obesity we see today in our bread oriented culture. Sprouted grain breads are low glycemic and do not turn to sugar in the body but act more like veggies.

reply to post by el1jah


Its not spin ... it's reality ...

The amount of water needed to produce one ton of beef is more than Poultry, Eggs, Rice, Soybeans, Wheat, Maize, Milk, Potatoes combined.

source

I am not saying that we have to stop eating meat, I eat meat myself! I am saying we need to eat less

Our obsession with beef is destructive and there is no reason for it to be like that.

Sure, we can eat bugs ... I have eaten grasshoppers, Bogon moths, Witchetty grubs ... and we could farm them and harvest them ... they would make great burger patties for Maccas

But we don't need to ... we would have more than enough food production to feed us all if we distribute it fairly and efficiently, if used sustainable farming practises and put mega research and mega bucks into terraforming