Destiny versus Causality

Destiny is a really interesting thing, as well as causality. As there is many states of mentality, physicality, sociality, and spirituality. If you are a believer in astrology, the higher stars determine your being. If you are a believer of science, the lower cells and chromosomes determine your being.

Macrocosm and Microcosm; Causality and Destiny; Higher and lower;

Your thoughts of appearing unattractive inside, will lead to your external appearance leading to that outside.

The thing Above will have the same equal affect as the thing Below. With Causality comes destiny;with Destiny comes Causality.

Double post

reply to post by akushla99


The mind 'thinks' it knows. When the mind is strong it will prevent one from looking deeper. Alan Watts explains that there is no separate self to beable to 'choose' in the video yet you believe in freewill, so i asked you 'who' can make a choice?
The mind 'thinks' it 'knows', but the mind does not 'know', the mind is 'known'.
Life happens and humans 'think' they are doing it.
And no one chose this destiny. There is no one that can choose because there is no one separate to the happening.

I personally believe that everything is causality. You reap what you sow, so to speak. I think predetermined destiny is a nice idea for people who want to let go of personal responsibility or just make sense out of the world without just accepting that your choices lead you to where you end up. But its impossible to prove there is no such thing as destiny because people rationalize around it to keep believing in it. For example, Jane believes that her destiny is to be a doctor. She feels it so strongly within herself that she goes so to med school. She fails out of med school. After failing out of med school, she enters a public health program and finds her niche in doing medical research. Jane now believes that this was her destiny all along. She was never meant to become a doctor that's why she failed. Because if she had not failed she would have never thought about doing medical research and would have never found her true purpose. That example is something I have heard variations of and it allows anyone to rationalize around the fact that the idea destiny is probably just a made up,.

Originally posted by acmpnsfal
I personally believe that everything is causality. You reap what you sow, so to speak. I think predetermined destiny is a nice idea for people who want to let go of personal responsibility or just make sense out of the world without just accepting that your choices lead you to where you end up. But its impossible to prove there is no such thing as destiny because people rationalize around it to keep believing in it. For example, Jane believes that her destiny is to be a doctor. She feels it so strongly within herself that she goes so to med school. She fails out of med school. After failing out of med school, she enters a public health program and finds her niche in doing medical research. Jane now believes that this was her destiny all along. She was never meant to become a doctor that's why she failed. Because if she had not failed she would have never thought about doing medical research and would have never found her true purpose. That example is something I have heard variations of and it allows anyone to rationalize around the fact that the idea destiny is probably just a made up,.

edit on 20-3-2012 by acmpnsfal because: (no reason given)

I see this sort of compensation mechanism being employed all the time. Hell, I've even tried to make myself feel better by working with it. People want to feel special, and they want to believe that there's something or someone that has been chosen specifically for them. It's natural to want to feel destined, even if no one wants to feel fated. Thing is that they're both the same notion, only one is positive and the other is negative. One is destined to succeed, even as another's fate is to be succeeded by the one whose destiny it is to succeed them. People invent what they need to get through life.

Destiny: no matter where you go or what you do, you will end up at a predesignated fate.

Causality: every exact situation, reproduced down to the last variable, will produce the same results. Your fate is determined by your actions, and every reaction to your action is a completely natural consequence. No higher being is actively involved in controlling your life's direction.

Depends on if your viewing it from the soul evolving or the whole who is controling it. Lets asume god is everything in the universe and that all souls are meant to evolve and become devine but they are on different phases of their evolution. All souls have the same value but cannot fit in everywhere because they have not learned and become what the need to fit in. What if god have a perfect plan that is over billions of years where he/she lets us evolve thru countless lives and have a specific longterm plan on how to evolve us that is the fastest possible way for us to reach devinity. Just because we do not understand Hitler or other egocorrupted people do not mean they are not meant to exist for this to be a specific story with very specific information. I know it is hard to accept a bad history with alot of pain but that history and pain can teach us things on how we should evolve and avoid unwise directions. Sometime you have to experiance bad (ego) to be good (devine).

I will not be the first to evolve to the finish line and there is a very little chance that I will be the last but maybe I will. That would have been nice since then I will have a whole universe (if it is not a projection) helping me evolve as quickly as I can.

Some people think the universe is only a projection and nobody can't be sure that things are not just real where we humans and animals are. Just because we think we live in a physical planet do not make it so but you need to act as if you do (if you want to). It is the same with free will. It might be an illusion but since I only am allowed hints of the future by god/higher self then I cannot be sure how much control he/she has. But if he/she do not have much control or use as much control then he/she is manipulating me to belive he/she uses more control than he/she normaly do. Maybe is is that I have surrendered my free will in a way that makes he/she show the guiding. The amount of synchronization I see in the clock showing multiples of 11 is increadable.

However much control is used I am not sure off. But if I need to know how it works then I will find out (as if it is me myself that is finding the answer and I am not lead to it ). I get what I need and sometimes it is even what I want .

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by akushla99

 

The mind 'thinks' it knows. When the mind is strong it will prevent one from looking deeper. Alan Watts explains that there is no separate self to beable to 'choose' in the video yet you believe in freewill, so i asked you 'who' can make a choice?
The mind 'thinks' it 'knows', but the mind does not 'know', the mind is 'known'.
Life happens and humans 'think' they are doing it.
And no one chose this destiny. There is no one that can choose because there is no one separate to the happening.

edit on 20-3-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Bottom line...do my experiment!
See what sort of babble You are spouting from someone else's mouth...what this 'strong mind' thinks...a thought You are adopting...

Do the experiment...get a friend to tell me how you went...

Akushla

reply to post by akushla99


I asked the question first.
'Who' do you 'think' chooses?
I speak from experience yet you insist that i spout babble from someone elses mouth. Show me someone who agrees with what you are saying. What are you saying though? Do the experiment, do the experiment, do the experiment. You are not saying much.

reply to post by NorEaster


the problem is what noone wants to accept that what exist is only what is true, so everyone could keep meaning to benefit from the concept of creations being justified as existence source, so they could always b through the focus on positive wills and freedom constancy as superior subjective mean

so to the issue here in truth, destiny is to destination concept as causality is to source

destination by definition is free superior futur while source by definition is existing absolute fact same

truth is that perfect relation between zero and plus

what is plus is symbolically more the truth in concept of it
while zero is its fact objective value but through its conception of plus existence being free

truth is the principle as a fact of constancy being an absolute positive value to superior existence becoming objective fact

that truth is freedom which becomes absolutely existing object, positive superiority fact existence always

so constancy as truth value revealed being freedom element equation truth, that is why freedom rights are only to what is inherently true, not to relative sense
freedom is the object truth so it cant b else

that is why there is so many different words to identify relative free senses in attachment to their causes
awareness, conscious, present constant, will, need, reaction etc...

when the plus is the truth then any is true as relative value in zero freedom fact since only plus is truth

while that relative value of being objectively true can reach to be an absolute right of being free plus when it reachd to realize objective plus independant to objective reality while in total absolute objective respect to objective truth value of zero absolute freedom fact existence constant plus same

the issue is what noone recognize the value of plus being to truth only
while everyone run to assert that truth is to zero value in order to possess plus values for subjective freedom justification

it is bc truth is plus that zero is perfect reality always

when plus is always objective bc truth is the exclusive present fact so keep plusing plus, then what never moved or did any and never would or want to find itself surprisingly positive real

but also it is another idea that i value in mind to that truth

the value of opening mind roof to truth freedom plus always as a fact, is the reason of positive stable right constant state

the problem is what a lot intelligent kind of honesty see that point in reverse while it is real only like i said

they believe that positive state is from what objective cant b but true then there is never negative so the state is always energized from zero value and plus value in truth as positive fact
that is why they believe that knowledge free everyone in positive truth which is wrong and false and a lie
especially when they claim clearly that evil is of ignorance

individuals free senses are always relative to truth but then truth has nothing to deal with

it is to the individual sense when it means to b true to open up its mind in admitting truth superiority always that is the reason of becoming an effect of that as never negative sense so relatively always true, so wether nothing free or plus objective reality constant source

the problem of all evil is due to individual relative freedom abuse

in truth from my perspective, relative free sense is meant to b fully objective since truth superiority exist
then absolute superiority of relative free senses could be identified, where true superior relative will stand above as the right plus and the rest is wether nothing freedom or nothing at all
while by definition the right plus free is totally plus out of all and everything so there would always b others plus then really done in truth objective terms of rights

others would say that,

The present does not come from the past.
youtu.be...

reply to post by Starchild23


My view: Both are true. For me, Destiny is the grid and Causality is human freewill actions within the Destiny grid. I use the word grid to describe Destiny as there are certainties and universal laws that apply to human beings, such as death; bodies are destined to die.

This is one of the few universal laws of Destiny that I understand. The only other one I know: I am alive.

I primarily understand and interact with Causality in my daily life. For me Causality works as a variable and Destiny works as a constant. I can affect my Causality, but not my Destiny, as it is constant and most universal laws and truths are beyond the knowledge of humans.

We create this experience through Causality. Our Destiny is the life we are living right this moment. To ponder shortcomings, doubt, regret or live in the past or future is a gross misunderstanding of Destiny, which I struggle with daily.

But while I am on this Destiny grid, I strive to Cause positive affect in all situations. I cannot change my Destiny grid, but I can make it a positive place through my freewill choices and knowledge of how my Causality effects everything within the grid.

Peace and Love.

I go with causality, destiny is like faith, you just believe in it, but believing in it does not mean its going to happen

Causality: I study for the Exam, and i pass the exam.

Destiny: I'm destined to pass the exam, so i will wont pay much attention..

-----

Destiny is like god, you can't disprove it.

You suppose to kill someone, but you didn't, therefore you changed the destiny, but someone would argue that you weren't suppose to kill in the first place, and that's your destiny and you haven't changed anything..

Originally posted by luciddream
I go with causality, destiny is like faith, you just believe in it, but believing in it does not mean its going to happen

Causality: I study for the Exam, and i pass the exam.

Destiny: I'm destined to pass the exam, so i will wont pay much attention..

-----

Destiny is like god, you can't disprove it.

You suppose to kill someone, but you didn't, therefore you changed the destiny, but someone would argue that you weren't suppose to kill in the first place, and that's your destiny and you haven't changed anything..

You can study for an exam and fail too. You don't study for an exam and pass too.

reply to post by ChiForce


right, like he fails in defining destiny, if u know that u r gonna pass then u r what do smthg else, and not disworry

Originally posted by Starchild23
This is an ongoing argument between my friend and I. I was interested in what ATS has to say about it. I'll let him know your thoughts.

Destiny: no matter where you go or what you do, you will end up at a predesignated fate.

Causality: every exact situation, reproduced down to the last variable, will produce the same results. Your fate is determined by your actions, and every reaction to your action is a completely natural consequence. No higher being is actively involved in controlling your life's direction.


What do you think? Are we all bound by destiny, or are our lives riddled by natural causality? Is there a higher power determining ahead of time exactly where we go and do, and we can't avoid it?

Or can we change our future whenever we want? Is our path determined by what we do second by second?

I believe in causality, because destiny removes free will, something we've been promised no matter what book you've read.

My friend is a fan of destiny, because you can't really prove destiny does not exist. He says that there is no way to know if your actions and direction are not predetermined, and coincidence happens a lot.

What about you?

edit on CSaturdaypm585855f55America/Chicago17 by Starchild23 because: (no reason given)

combination of both.

it would be arrogant to think we could conclude on such a vast concept ... given the current amount of data we've gathered about reality during our short time here on earth.

but i'm gonna conclude k.. .KNOWING that i DONT know... (heh)

i mean .. hell... these shows like "Fringe" or the "Correction Beaurau" .. where there's complete "free will" .. but ET 'angel' 'men in black' type time travelers come in and intercede under the will of a higher power to 'set things right' ....could be a probability within our reality....

same thing in that show "the 4400"

if there's major decisions that need to be made by individuals who have a huge impact on history... and they choose one way that unfolds in a dramatically less pleasant future scenario than what they could have chosen... and someone has the ability to go back and coerce or force that person to change their mind about the decision... (even unknowingly) ...

then i think that action would be taken...

so i think it's a combination of complete free will... plus some "time cops" .... because if space and time is infinite then there exists intelligence that's explored and learned about reality and physics and time BILLIONS of years ahead of us... and hence have discovered time travel and do 'adjusting' in order to fulfill certain 'destinies' ...

but even those 'destinies' they're fulfilling are based off causality... meaning .. they're doing the action of the 'correction' as the cause.. and the desired outcome is the effect.

Originally posted by Starchild23
This is an ongoing argument between my friend and I. I was interested in what ATS has to say about it. I'll let him know your thoughts.

Destiny: no matter where you go or what you do, you will end up at a predesignated fate.

Causality: every exact situation, reproduced down to the last variable, will produce the same results. Your fate is determined by your actions, and every reaction to your action is a completely natural consequence. No higher being is actively involved in controlling your life's direction.


What do you think? Are we all bound by destiny, or are our lives riddled by natural causality? Is there a higher power determining ahead of time exactly where we go and do, and we can't avoid it?

Or can we change our future whenever we want? Is our path determined by what we do second by second?

I believe in causality, because destiny removes free will, something we've been promised no matter what book you've read.

My friend is a fan of destiny, because you can't really prove destiny does not exist. He says that there is no way to know if your actions and direction are not predetermined, and coincidence happens a lot.

What about you?

edit on CSaturdaypm585855f55America/Chicago17 by Starchild23 because: (no reason given)

combination of both.

it would be arrogant to think we could conclude on such a vast concept ... given the current amount of data we've gathered about reality during our short time here on earth.

but i'm gonna conclude k.. .KNOWING that i DONT know... (heh)

i mean .. hell... these shows like "Fringe" or the "Correction Beaurau" .. where there's complete "free will" .. but ET 'angel' 'men in black' type time travelers come in and intercede under the will of a higher power to 'set things right' ....could be a probability within our reality....

same thing in that show "the 4400"

if there's major decisions that need to be made by individuals who have a huge impact on history... and they choose one way that unfolds in a dramatically less pleasant future scenario than what they could have chosen... and someone has the ability to go back and coerce or force that person to change their mind about the decision... (even unknowingly) ...

then i think that action would be taken...

so i think it's a combination of complete free will... plus some "time cops" .... because if space and time is infinite then there exists intelligence that's explored and learned about reality and physics and time BILLIONS of years ahead of us... and hence have discovered time travel and do 'adjusting' in order to fulfill certain 'destinies' ...

but even those 'destinies' they're fulfilling are based off causality... meaning .. they're doing the action of the 'correction' as the cause.. and the desired outcome is the effect.

reply to post by prevenge


There is a reason even the most legitimate psychics say, "The future isn't set in stone." Every decision you make, every second of your day, every day of your life, results in tiny changes in your future. Even if something in your future happens 30 seconds sooner or later, or in a slightly different place...it's because of something you did.

No matter whether you are acting or reacting, creating your own stimulus or responding to another stimulus, it is your actions that create everything you see, hear, and do in your life. Sure, there are many things you cannot foresee, and cannot changing your reaction to. But the fact is, it was still your action/reaction. Your cause. Your effect.

The future is not set in stone. The best you have is possibilities. Why do you think Plan A never works out? We assume it is destiny because the average human is incapable of grasping, in its precise dimensions, the infinite number of variables involved in what I call the "Causality Sequence", an infinite web of variables influenced by, as well as affecting, every single player in this world, past and present.

Every consequence is a natural consequence, whether you are causing it or someone else is. There are no supernatural influences consistently plucking strings in every individual life, such as gods or fates: we simply don't understand the nature of reality yet.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by prevenge

 

There are no supernatural influences consistently plucking strings in every individual life, such as gods or fates: we simply don't understand the nature of reality yet.

and HOW you know that they do not and have never existed in this infinite universe(s) .. ?

given enough time to develop technologically.. any intelligent race could develop time travel... and augment the past in order to secure a specific timeline.. or create new time lines or outcomes or multiverses

Originally posted by prevenge

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by prevenge

 

There are no supernatural influences consistently plucking strings in every individual life, such as gods or fates: we simply don't understand the nature of reality yet.

and HOW you know that they do not and have never existed in this infinite universe(s) .. ?

given enough time to develop technologically.. any intelligent race could develop time travel... and augment the past in order to secure a specific timeline.. or create new time lines or outcomes or multiverses

Because of the "Causality Sequence". No human is capable of ever going back and adjusting the one variable needed to change history without ****ing up all of history. It's just impossible. And not only that...it's a lethal effort, one that could cost as many as thousands of lives.

Why change history that has already happened? Who on earth has the right to play God like that? Who thinks they are so smart that not only do they know exactly what the world is supposed to be and how to make the correct adjustments, but that they have the right to do so as well? Source is the only entity who knows exactly what to do for what effect. To change that plan is to insult the reason your world exists.

Arrogance. Sheer arrogance. If I knew anyone who did that...I would commit unspeakable acts.

Originally posted by Starchild23

Originally posted by prevenge

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by prevenge

 

There are no supernatural influences consistently plucking strings in every individual life, such as gods or fates: we simply don't understand the nature of reality yet.

and HOW you know that they do not and have never existed in this infinite universe(s) .. ?

given enough time to develop technologically.. any intelligent race could develop time travel... and augment the past in order to secure a specific timeline.. or create new time lines or outcomes or multiverses

Because of the "Causality Sequence". No human is capable of ever going back and adjusting the one variable needed to change history without ****ing up all of history. It's just impossible. And not only that...it's a lethal effort, one that could cost as many as thousands of lives.

Well, from the perspective you adhere to, one with a finite number of timelines and realities (multiverses).. actually, from what I'm feeling you only 'believe' in the existence of ONE timeline and ONE universe.. even though current string-theory and quanum physicists are on the large lending towards a "multiverse model" where infinite possibilities are expressed at any given moment, but what's most LIKELY to manifest in these infinite versions of reality are the most probable ones based on causality and choice....

lending toward YOUR limited view (IMO) of ONE timeline and ONE universe existing... if someone went back and did something that prevented a number of beings in that timeline to be "conceived" (in the biblical carnal sense) ..
then in no way were those lives "lost"... "no "cost" of thousands of lives.. .. ie: they simple NEVER were conceived in the first place.. YET who's to say by that very same 'timeline adjustment" that caused those people to NOT be conceived... a much larger amount of people WERE conceived... IE.. someone kills Hitler... all the people killed by him actually conceived children and exponentially .. TODAY.. Europe has twice if not triple the amount of people in it.. making the scenario that's occurring now with the collapse of the Euro.. all that much more uncontrollable and poverty stricken....

sidenot: No Hitler... No Israel... (something to think about) ...

Why change history that has already happened? Who on earth has the right to play God like that? Who thinks they are so smart that not only do they know exactly what the world is supposed to be and how to make the correct adjustments, but that they have the right to do so as well?

Well I'd hope that any specific individual that has "instructions" from a collective board of scientists.. to go and do such a thing.. woul have it on RELATIVELY GOOD INFO.. that what he-she is doing messing with the past.. would 'adjust' their current reality into something more beneficial for the collective human existence as a whole...
Hell there's so many loopholes and issues you could pick at forever...

If you're stuck to the ONE UNIVERSE - ONE TIMELINE concept... .. .because if you're limited to ONE timeline.. then sure.. you can't exist to kill your grandfather... end of story so stop thinking about it. and never re-examine the concept..

BUT if you consider an INFINITE TIMELINES model (or whatever amount of timelines would be most probable).. meaning infinite potentiality.. yet adhering to a finite amount that considers causality as it's base and human choice with time travel potential in mind... ..then you have to relinquish the time-travel paradox of killing your grandfather.. and consider that NEW timelines are CREATED via these "adjustment" points...

Source is the only entity who knows exactly what to do for what effect. To change that plan is to insult the reason your world exists.

you seem to be religiously attached to the concept you've formed.. and i think that's romantic and all.. but can be quite dangerous in the sense that you've ceased questioning anything further than what the walls of your current belief system convey. Don't take what i'm saying so personally...

Arrogance. Sheer arrogance. If I knew anyone who did that...I would commit unspeakable acts.

see.. that's the kind of nutty stuff we hear fanatic radical islamists and christians say... but yours is of a different flavor...

I appreciate the talk here.. and discussion about all that is.. but if you're threatening violence against something you know verrrrry little about as far as the reasons for specific incursions of actions (ie: the tremendous effort of timeline - multiverse re-adjustment) .. then i think you might want to sit back .. breathe a little and consider a broader reality..

the one I've just relayed..

have fun!