Destiny versus Causality

This is an ongoing argument between my friend and I. I was interested in what ATS has to say about it. I'll let him know your thoughts.

Destiny: no matter where you go or what you do, you will end up at a predesignated fate.

Causality: every exact situation, reproduced down to the last variable, will produce the same results. Your fate is determined by your actions, and every reaction to your action is a completely natural consequence. No higher being is actively involved in controlling your life's direction.


What do you think? Are we all bound by destiny, or are our lives riddled by natural causality? Is there a higher power determining ahead of time exactly where we go and do, and we can't avoid it?

Or can we change our future whenever we want? Is our path determined by what we do second by second?

I believe in causality, because destiny removes free will, something we've been promised no matter what book you've read.

My friend is a fan of destiny, because you can't really prove destiny does not exist. He says that there is no way to know if your actions and direction are not predetermined, and coincidence happens a lot.

What about you?

reply to post by Starchild23


We can never really know which one is prevalent. I can offer my own experience that makes me lean more towards destiny but i still really have no clue. When i was 13 years old I lived with my step mother and father and they fought like cats and dogs. My step mother at the time didn't know why her and my father were still together because they really didn't enjoy being around each other so much. She told me that when she was doing dishes one day she asked out loud "Why are me and Jim(my father)still together?", and she heard a voice plain as day say that they were together for Jimmy (which is me). This has always stuck with me and helped me through tough times and made me believe that i actually have a bigger reason for being here.

I guess you can look at it this way: destiny is just the perceived end result of causality.


He murdered someone and went to jail, he was destined to be in jail and that other person's destiny was to die.

He refused to murder someone when he had the chance, it was his destiny to spare the other person and other person's destiny was to live.


The young boy believed he was destined for greatness and achieved it later in life.

The young boy believed he was destined for greatness but did not achieve it ever.


In other words, destiny is man's way to deal with what happens and why it happens. But to delve deeper into it, you can see it as someone's reason for being here: some of us (if not all of us) have things to accomplish on this world, but I believe that was our choice, so even destiny can be chosen.

reply to post by Starchild23


I've thought about this subject a lot myself, and having read some Sufi teachings can tell you that destiny, does not negate free will.

Think of it this way, humans are given free will yes, but this will has limits. It cannot for example, move mountains simply by willing. It can only work as a mechanism of choice in personal actions yes?

So those of us who believe in God also believe that our free will, is surrounded by that of a greater free will than itself. Sort of like a circle within a circle. Our free will exists inside Gods greater Will. Generally they do not blend, but if it wasn't for Gods greater Will power, we would be able to perform whatever we wish and please by simply willing it. And experience teaches us that this is not the case.

So which is it you ask? I see destiny as two parts: 1. Full Destiny, which are things that are out of our reach of will power that affect us, example: things like natural disasters, some accidents, life and death, because these things are not completely under human control.

2. And causal Destiny, which is what you would chose over and over again, if you had lived the same life over and over again. Some people explain it like this: God knows your future simply because He knows what and who you are. He knows you would chose a particular choice over and over again because He created you and knows the inner workings of your mind. So knowing so much about you makes it easy to know exactly what you're going to chose. Sort of like an inventor, who knows which way his invention will move because he knows the inner workings of its structure. So this is your destiny, a combination of everything that makes you YOU. It may look like someone chose these things for you before hand, but on the contrary, you chose these things based on your nature. And everyones nature is unique is it not?

the more choices you make the more likely you are to be following destinty, by limiting things. So the question is do you have control of choices you make, and at some point everybody will give the power of choice up to something else or to someone else. If you can take responsiblity for your choices and not put that on someone else then you have free will. It doesn't matter which is right for this question unless you can prove it. You might be able to prove one way or the other to yourself but that means nothing to me. Would you rather give in to destiny or live your life?

reply to post by Starchild23


They are both and not mutually exclusive. Here is why. Anything that happens and will happen has a cause. Some of these occurrences may be beyond our conventional human understanding. So, A can cause B. A can also cause C. In both situations, we are dealing with our perception of what is causality. Destiny? The end path and the end point? Which is what? The end of life? The end of your life's path? Even this end has a set of causality which may or may not be understood. To exclude either one, you are beginning to fall into a trap of neglecting the path taken to reach your destiny. I believe that people who have done you wrong in the past should be held accountable and responsible of their actions....at least within the law of Karma.

For an example. It is your destiny to become Good. However, the path in which you have experienced to arrive at this point was consisting of many negative life experiences from others. Does this mean that these negative experiences do not matter?

FYI, even the choice you can make is always part of destiny. Normally, your life choices are pretty limited given your social background and wealth.

reply to post by Starchild23


That is one of those hard to answer riddles like the chicken and the egg. If we knew the answer we would know it all. Although we cannot say if our lives are determined by destiny or casualty we can say if they are comedy or tragedy. Life is filled with irony and coincidence - unless there is no such thing. I certainly think you can affect reality and many possibilities exist simultaneously.

I suppose I do not really believe in Causality because there is no such thing as the "same exact moment". It's just impossible.

Originally posted by Starchild23
A. Destiny: no matter where you go or what you do, you will end up at a predesignated fate.

B. Causality: every exact situation, reproduced down to the last variable, will produce the same results. Your fate is determined by your actions, and every reaction to your action is a completely natural consequence. No higher being is actively involved in controlling your life's direction.

C. What do you think? Are we all bound by destiny, or are our lives riddled by natural causality? Is there a higher power determining ahead of time exactly where we go and do, and we can't avoid it?

D. Or can we change our future whenever we want? Is our path determined by what we do second by second?

E. I believe in causality, because destiny removes free will, something we've been promised no matter what book you've read.

F. My friend is a fan of destiny, because you can't really prove destiny does not exist. He says that there is no way to know if your actions and direction are not predetermined, and coincidence happens a lot.

What about you?

edit on CSaturdaypm585855f55America/Chicago17 by Starchild23 because: (no reason given)

A. Does this include rolling a dice from the day you are born? Can rolling a dice produce a decision which forms 'destiny'?

B. "...every last detail..." ...except 'time'...
The second part of this section is much closer to what happens...

C. A 'higher power' has generated the parameters within which, the 'units' operating within the 'locum' of these parameters, have total control of thier 'destiny'...a function within this locum which produces 'cause & effect', according to the parameters installed...We can 'avoid' most anything, if aware of the influence of our individual decisions...

D. Correct...

E. Faulty logic. Define destiny. Refer to your answer to A.

F. Coincidence.
Co = together
Incidence = occurence/incident

Things which happen at the same time.
What doesn't?

Synchronicity
Syn = together
Chronicity = from chronos (time)

Things that happen together in time.
What doesn't?

Akushla

reply to post by AdamsMurmur


My friend agrees with you on most of your points. However, I would like to add that destiny is not synonymous with choice. Choice itself is destiny, should destiny exist.

He expected an entirely different argument, but he likes yours.

reply to post by akushla99


I shall very politely take issue with your post.

E. Faulty logic. Define destiny. Refer to your answer to A.

E. I believe in causality, because destiny removes free will, something we've been promised no matter what book you've read.

A. Destiny: no matter where you go or what you do, you will end up at a predesignated fate.

When every choice you make leads you to one, precise, predesignated conclusion in life, that removes all semblance of free will. Why? Because your consequences are not your own. Your actions were decided by someone else, and your rewards were decided by someone else. This is the meaning of destiny.

F. Coincidence.
Co = together
Incidence = occurence/incident

Things which happen at the same time.
What doesn't?

Synchronicity
Syn = together
Chronicity = from chronos (time)

Things that happen together in time.
What doesn't?

Are you deliberately misrepresenting the issue?

My friend wishes to tell you that you have obviously never taken apart a watch and reassembled it (he is a man of many trades) if you think either coincidence or synchronicity are so simple. Watching a flower bloom, watching a baby born...the synchronicity of these things, while coincidental to some, is a horse of an entirely different color.

I believe in causality, because destiny removes free will, something we've been promised no matter what book you've read.

You may be believing, what you want to believe…
Some books lie, and some books lie more than others. Given the usually MANY contradictory differences, between humanities, major religious books, it seems 100% self-evident that these books are pretty hot on "the lies scale". Something every follower should believe, since every book promises: It alone, is the truth!

I believe in both…
1. Before you do something you have free will
2. After you’ve done it, it was always destiny (a chain reaction since the Big Bang) that you would do it.

reply to post by Starchild23




I think reality falls somewhere in between destiny and causality. Our lives are definitely the culmination of our past choices but at the same time many religious texts suggests some people are chosen over others. Not to mention that most of us are products of our environment. And with that said, forces more powerful than ourselves can change the course of our lives quite easily. For example, many people think they are free but in reality all are slaves to their emotions which are manipulated daily by marketing professionals, politicians, and various other groups of people. Even a person who thinks they are "awake" is still stuck in this system unless they find true knowledge that will let them break free.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by akushla99

 

I shall very politely take issue with your post.

E. Faulty logic. Define destiny. Refer to your answer to A.

E. I believe in causality, because destiny removes free will, something we've been promised no matter what book you've read.

A. Destiny: no matter where you go or what you do, you will end up at a predesignated fate.

When every choice you make leads you to one, precise, predesignated conclusion in life, that removes all semblance of free will. Why? Because your consequences are not your own. Your actions were decided by someone else, and your rewards were decided by someone else. This is the meaning of destiny.

F. Coincidence.
Co = together
Incidence = occurence/incident

Things which happen at the same time.
What doesn't?

Synchronicity
Syn = together
Chronicity = from chronos (time)

Things that happen together in time.
What doesn't?

Are you deliberately misrepresenting the issue?

My friend wishes to tell you that you have obviously never taken apart a watch and reassembled it (he is a man of many trades) if you think either coincidence or synchronicity are so simple. Watching a flower bloom, watching a baby born...the synchronicity of these things, while coincidental to some, is a horse of an entirely different color.

edit on CSundayam050524f24America/Chicago18 by Starchild23 because: (no reason given)

I understand what You are saying, but, which 'other' destiny are You comparing it against to determine that it is not Your FREE WILL which is leading You to both? If it is Your decision, this is a choice You have made, according to Your will. If it wasn't, why make a choice...since, according to what I understand You are saying, it makes no difference whether You have choice or not, because You will get to the same 'destiny'. And indeed You will! This is how FREE WILL works - whether You lay in a recliner watching infomercials, eating nachos...and complaining that You never meet anyone (any inkling why?), or whether you jog marathons...both end results are 'destinies' of these choices...or is there a 'template' of this 'set-in-stone' thing, You call destiny?

A watch is a mechanical device, propelled by a variety of power sources (You could call these sources the 'will' to move the machinery) You surely aren't equating a watch with a human?! 'cos of You are, I will have to agree with you...the human machine is powered by some 'other' power source which provides this 'will' to move the machinery...

The elucidation of the words, coincidence and synchronicity, were an illustration of how language is a virus (thanx to W.Burroughs), it basically illustrates that the nomenclature fits perfectly with what happens all the time - nothing is a coincidence, but everything is a coincidence! Synchronicity is a subjectively based phenomena, depending on individual correspondences (just read any ATS conspiracy thread!)...this doesn't mean that I think they are not mysterious and wonderful, like a flower blooming or a baby being born, but different witnesses will have different reactions to the same events, and whether they are significant or not...

Cheers
Akushla

reply to post by akushla99


The problem is 'who' is it that makes a choice?
youtu.be...

Originally posted by Starchild23
This is an ongoing argument between my friend and I. I was interested in what ATS has to say about it. I'll let him know your thoughts.

Destiny: no matter where you go or what you do, you will end up at a predesignated fate.

Causality: every exact situation, reproduced down to the last variable, will produce the same results. Your fate is determined by your actions, and every reaction to your action is a completely natural consequence. No higher being is actively involved in controlling your life's direction.


What do you think? Are we all bound by destiny, or are our lives riddled by natural causality? Is there a higher power determining ahead of time exactly where we go and do, and we can't avoid it?

Or can we change our future whenever we want? Is our path determined by what we do second by second?

Destiny is what we blame another person's success on and fate is what we blame our own failure on. No one likes to admit that someone else outdid them, so we invented this destiny/fate concept so that we could bemoan our own fate and resent the destiny of those who achieved what we couldn't achieve.

It's based on the intense levels of competition that the Homo Sapien version of the human being is afflicted with. Some people have elevated it to the status of a divine issuance. Like a lot of other compensation devices.

reply to post by Starchild23


lets drag the concept of " destiny " kicking and screaming to is absurd conclusion

how do you explain the principle of " desitiny " without requiring the total & constant micromanagement of the entire universe ?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by akushla99

 

The problem is 'who' is it that makes a choice?
youtu.be...

Here's a little experiment you can try on yourself...sit on a chair in your kitchen, lights out, doors locked...(hypothetically you have no relatives)...begin the experiment at the point at which you sit on the chair...from this moment, make a decision to not make a choice...

Now...who is, not, choosing what?

Akushla

reply to post by akushla99


Maybe you should watch the video and not be so quick to assume.
You believe you are separate to the universe and you believe you can do something independent from the universe.
It is all happening as one movement, one process.
Please listen to what Alan Watts has to say in the video and you might question your beliefs. Or if you are strong minded - don't watch it and don't hear it, believe the conditioned mind instead.
Try this experiment - look beyond the mind.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by akushla99

 

Maybe you should watch the video and not be so quick to assume.
You believe you are separate to the universe and you believe you can do something independent from the universe.
It is all happening as one movement, one process.
Please listen to what Alan Watts has to say in the video and you might question your beliefs. Or if you are strong minded - don't watch it and don't hear it, believe the conditioned mind instead.
Try this experiment - look beyond the mind.

edit on 19-3-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Maybe you should try my little experiment and stick to the OP.

...and next time you want to make a half-way smart comment, come up with something of your own which is relevant.
Alan Watts is not my Guru...although much of what he says is sourced from the places I have sourced my own posit.

You are welcome to point me anywhere you like, but, telling me to 'look beyond the mind' is laughable...
What do my comments say about whether I am strong minded or weak minded any more than yours are?

If you have achieved ananda, your comprehension of what I write would not be suspicious and judgemental...he he...this goes for many Gurus round here...

Teach me something I don't already know...

Oh yeah...what would happen in my little experiment?...and how long would it take?...who 'chose' this destiny?

Akushla