Attachment Disorder: Research Issues, Sources, Relationship Impacts, Implications: My View

Originally posted by paleorchid13
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

What a wonderfully detailed and informative response . Thank you .

THANKS for your kind reply. I'm humbled and honored.

When you had mentioned about the brain not developing normally , I suppose the question of brain plasticity/neurogenesis came to mind ; That perhaps although one may not receive that love and affection early in life , if a person receives adequate love and attention later on ( for example: parent isn't available at first , than at age 8 or 9 or even later , the parent turns their life around and provides that love and comfort), if it can offset that underdevelopment.

CERTAINLY quality love at any age helps tons toward filling in the holes.

There are lots of factors, however. . . . off the top of my head . . .

To what degree, or not has the individual:

1. come to a place of forgiveness
2. come to a place of letting go emotionally and in their thought life the horrid history

3. come to a place of turning their back on negativity and focusing on being optimistic as a way of being in the world. It doesn't matter what the realities & circumstances are. Optimistic people are healthier in a list of ways.

4. come to a place of taking responsibility for their own happiness and
5. choosing to see themselves as LARGELY in HEALTHY CONTROL of their own lives--again--regardless of circumstances. Jewish psychiatrist, death camp survivor Viktor Frankl's MAN'S SEARCH FOR MEANING is relevant.

6. come to a place where they cultivate and maintain close, emotionally bonded relationships with healthy, optimistic AND VERY LOVING AND AFFIRMING PEOPLE. . . . and maybe minimize their contact minutes with whiners, pessimists etc.

7. I think for men, it is particularly difficult. Men do not have permission to be emotionally close and bonded to other men unless they don't care about being thought of as homosexual or unless they are in a gang-pseudo family. And even there it's fraught with tricky macho sparing for top dog positions.

8. For men to find a loving mentor or brother figure is extremely difficult. There just aren't that many to go around. Most men are plagued with their own significant degrees of attachment disorder and sense of inadequacy etc. It often comes out in arrogance and bravado but it's there.

9. Some church and other Christian groups have begun to facilitate groups of men meeting to hold one another accountable as well as affirm one another as brothers. Their marriages are usually greatly strengthened in the process. I'm now part of a WILD AT HEART group. We are going to Colo in May for a retreat/bonding experience with zip lines and obstacle courses where partners MUST help one another to make it through. Great stuff.

10. Where ideal men or quasi ideal men can't be found, I suggest that men find someone more or less as healthy as they are and maybe a counselor or pastor overseer type and begin to meet regularly to help each other grow into the kind of loving affirming brothers, mentors they both need. THEY WOULD NEED VERY SERIOUS COMMITMENTS to one another--not easy in our society. Men are not taught commitment any more. The globalist oligarchy has seen to that.

11. If their level of healthiness is not that great, then find someone 25-50% better and ask them if they'll take you on in a mentoring sort of way. Learn all you can from them and strengthen them by affirming them and growing from what they share with you.

12. I think it's also useful to write down the significant incidents in one's first 0-8 years . . . particularly the undermining, disconfirming, harsh, abusive, brutal, etc. stuff. Get it out on paper at literally arm's length where a better perspective can be had of it. Ponder it or pray about it . . . discuss the major items with a trusted confident or counselor or pastor.

13. Maybe have a ceremony where you pronounce and declare over all such incidents that they no longer have destructive power over you and that you are going to OVERCOME all such regardless of how long it takes or how much hard work. Maybe pray over each incident. Forgive all the other persons, abusers or whatever for all their evil destructive stuff. Forgive FOR YOU. Let them go to God or the universe for discipline. Resign as detective, prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner.


outta characters.
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reply to post by BO XIAN


As a female, it took me quite a long time to see fallacy with males until I became a victim of some. Other females however, I always perceived as vicious control-freak creatures. But I must say, that it has made my selection process easy when it comes to friendships..I know incredibly kind , good spirited women because I am sensitive to cues. With men however, I tend to remain a bit more naive.

Originally posted by paleorchid13
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

As a female, it took me quite a long time to see fallacy with males until I became a victim of some. Other females however, I always perceived as vicious control-freak creatures. But I must say, that it has made my selection process easy when it comes to friendships..I know incredibly kind , good spirited women because I am sensitive to cues. With men however, I tend to remain a bit more naive.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me . . . given all the givens in your life. Thanks for letting me know you're a female. LOL.

I need to get back to your last post and respond to the rest of it . . . lots on my plate. Not sure how much I'll get finished tonight. Only had 4 hours sleep last night--planned to get back to bed and never made it. LOL.

Thanks for the honor of your dialogue.

Please be free to ask for clarification or additional info about whatever I blather back to you with. I'm not easily offended or bothered.
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reply to post by BO XIAN

No problem . Someone with your experience and expertise , I feel pleasantly obliged to pick your brain Look forward to your response .

I wanted to add , that my husband agrees with you very much about your last post though. He has always found it difficult to find male friends and doesn't have many. So what you said I hope shines a light for other men for whom that information could help very much

Originally posted by paleorchid13
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

What struck as me interesting, (if I'm understanding correctly), is that although the mother may provide adequate love and affection, the fathers absence still strongly correlates with RAD. Have their been any studies done that reveals an equally strong correlation with the parental roles reversed? (mother absent, father provides love) Or is simply stating that both parents must be involved and that simply in these case studies the fathers happened to more absent than mothers.

CERTAINLY WHEN THERE IS DAILY QUALITY LOVE communicated effectively over an effective number of minutes/hours--it makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE--EVEN WITH SINGLE MOTHERS.

However, MOST single mothers are exhausted . . . taxed to the max in terms of time and energy; stress etc. and it's a kind of SUPERWOMAN achievement to survive, much less parent fully adequately. Amazingly some single mothers manage it shockingly well in spite of great odds against it.

I do believe, however, there is likely to be SOME detectable degree of ATTACHMENT DISORDER except in very rare cases.

WHETHER that detectable amount is going to significantly degrade the quality of the adult child's relationships over the span of their life is a complex question involving lots of factors. For some, probably not. For others, maybe. For others, most likely.

I should note on this thread what I usually do . . .

THE FOLLOWING USUALLY TO ALWAYS CAUSE SERIOUS DEGREES OF ATTACHMENT DISORDER: . . . for either or both parents and particularly for father.

--alcoholism, gambling, rage-aholic, sex addict, porn addict; workaholic
--cold, distant, absent, harsh, father (or mother)
--physically, verbally, emotionally or sexually abusive parent
--violence against child or other parent
--chronic negativity, criticism, disconfirmation

What is a single parents best course of action if Thier support isn't enough ?

That's a big challenge.

CERTAINLY I'D LEAVE NO STONE UNTURNED to dig up HEALTHY big brothers; father figures; grandparent figures . . . even if I had to go to a church or an old folks home or trade doing laundry or ironing or whatever to get the kid some 1:1 time with a healthy male figure. Trouble is, even being very resourceful doesn't manufacture the wonderful people needed. They can be very hard to find. One has to be relentlessly tenacious to find them in most communities.

Personally, i like the idea of old folks homes. There's old people--some of whom are reasonably healthy and very bright with a wealth of experience and caring to share and maybe no family to share it with. And on the other end is a kid desperately in need of older caring loving wisdom. What a perfect match!

Though it could still be quite a challenge to find a GOOD MATCH for the older person and the child personality wise and interest-wise.

. . . your post hit home to me because my adoptive mother( who was bonkers ) tried to accuse me of having Attachment disorder for the reason why the two of us did not bond.

LET ME AT HER. LOL.

Blaming the victim is really A LOW BLOW imho. Sigh. GRRR.

As an observation to then suggest--or ask--what can WE do to help correct MY [mommy dearest's] contributions to your attachment disorder in your childhood? . . . that's oen thing.

To use Attachment Disorder to try and coerce or manipulate some sort of unfitting care-giving to mommy now . . . Rain on her. She can see a therapist.

I'm all for working things out. I'm just NOT interested in manipulative coercive games by people still desperately crazy and manipulative. No thanks.

My father was never present since birth. My mother was unstable and I wound in foster care at the age 4 and was adopted at age 5, only to have a brutal and abusive relationship with my adoptive mother and because of it, wound in homes and foster care until emancipation at 17. Had terrible relationships with most foster mothers , but all the males in my life were always fine. Life seemed to reinforce my perceptions.

HOW HORRID! ZOWIEEEE! SIGH.

Congrats! What a rare fortunate experience to find so many constructive males in your single life! I consider that a miracle! What country are you in? LOL. Seriously, that's amazing. What a gift.

So, they evidently helped you feel like a worthwhile person and woman to some significant degree?

I think I'm running out of gas along with running out of characters yet again.

So, more tomorrow.

Though I have to take a friend to the bigger airport some distance away and am not sure when I'll be back home or avaialbe to get back online . . . will when I can.

Thanks for the honor of your posts, comments and questions.

Blessings,
Bo

reply to post by paleorchid13


Quick response.

Thanks tons to your hubby for his comment. Would be humbled and honored if he cares to enter the fray at any point, in any way.

Which part of my comments about men most resonated with him?

Thanks to you both. Happy sleep or whatever is next on your schedule wherever you are!

later,

LET ME AT HER. LOL. Blaming the victim is really A LOW BLOW imho. Sigh. GRRR.

Congrats! What a rare fortunate experience to find so many constructive males in your single life! I consider that a miracle! What country are you in? LOL. Seriously, that's amazing. What a gift.

reply to post by BO XIAN


A psychiatrist that hasn't made me question my own sanity .... and ohh how that is rare. I'm used to those in my youth , that would love to pump me full of meds and diagnose me.

I saw my adoptive father as a victim..although he was complicit in what happened to me , I didn't see that as a child . As my adoptive mother was going nutty , and "he" didn't see the big deal ..he wound up dealing the brunt of viscous verbal and physical attacks. He never talked back , never raised his voice , never argued with her ...he actually resorted to parroting her. I remember being 10-11 saying they should get a divorce , because I didn't like the way she treated him. Oh she laughed at me .

I live in USA ..I know . my experience may be rare .....all the guys seemed to be going with the flow , while the women ran the show . At least , that's how I saw it.

As far as my hubbie? wow , we have had quite a conversation ..and he said "the only brotherhood that is out there is in the military and even then , ..given the chance they will screw you over in a heartbeat"

You had mentioned a "god" principle ..a moral construct ...and that's where it get's weird for me ....and I believe that's where we part ways ....

Originally posted by paleorchid13

A psychiatrist that hasn't made me question my own sanity .... and ohh how that is rare. I'm used to those in my youth , that would love to pump me full of meds and diagnose me.

Will answer this post as it's shorter . . . before I go back to finishing answering your earlier great post. My PhD is in Clinical Psychology. I'm not an MD. I occasionally met a psychiatrist I respected. The UCSD Medical School taught our psychoactive drugs class. He said that he gave us 30+ hours of instruction on psychoactive drugs and he only gave psychiatrists in training--THEIR WHOLE TRAINING--only 2-3 hours of instruction on psychoactive drugs. That flabbergasted us.

Everyone in my class hated the whole custom of psychiatrists seeing patients occasionally for 10 minutes, charing high fees and keeping people in chemical straight-jackets that zoned them out in a walking dead sort of pseudo-"life."

I saw my adoptive father as a victim..although he was complicit in what happened to me , I didn't see that as a child .

That's usually the way it is. Matched sets tend to find each other. Whether it's psycho-dynamic finding a match or spiritual finding a match or a combination--it sure happens with incredible frequency.

As my adoptive mother was going nutty , and "he" didn't see the big deal ..he wound up dealing the brunt of viscous verbal and physical attacks. He never talked back , never raised his voice , never argued with her ...he actually resorted to parroting her. I remember being 10-11 saying they should get a divorce , because I didn't like the way she treated him. Oh she laughed at me .

My step-dad was quite similar with my more than a little crazy mother. They really loved each other dearly . . . right up to her death with Alzhiemers. That was one of their main redeeming things--that they really loved each other.

I live in USA ..I know . my experience may be rare .....all the guys seemed to be going with the flow , while the women ran the show . At least , that's how I saw it.

YES! That is sooooooooooo true. I'm NOT into macho squelching of or abuse of women. Not at all. I love to see women empowered to be all they can be.

HOWEVER. The Marxist globalists ADMIT to instigating Feminism in order to help destroy the American family and culture.

twoday.net...

www.crossroad.to...

And, from anthropology, we KNOW that ANY CULTURE STUDIED which confused the roles between men and women for longer than--I think it was 50 years--CEASED TO EXIST. The culture disintegrated. It was no more. Kaput. Could no longer be found.

Women don't want tyrants.

And, millions of women with serious degrees of ATTACHMENT DISORDER respond as many men do--with fierce degrees of intense DESPERATE NEEDS TO !!!!CONTROL!!!! all the relationships around them--particularly their spouses/partners.

The trouble is . . . human perverseness is such that . . . when we find something that does NOT work, we do it MORE, HARDER, MORE FREQUENTLY. Sigh.

!!!CONTROL!!! habits in relationships DO NOT WORK. They give the illusion of working because they often coerce what is demanded, expected. HOWEVER, THAT ERODES TO OUT-RIGHT DESTROYS the RELATIONSHIP. The negative fallout is far from what's desired, really.

As far as my hubbie? wow , we have had quite a conversation ..and he said "the only brotherhood that is out there is in the military and even then , ..given the chance they will screw you over in a heartbeat"

Toooooo true.

There are SOME brotherhoods out there that are healthy. They are few and far between. We'll see how far we get with the budding ones at church.

You had mentioned a "god" principle ..a moral construct ...and that's where it get's weird for me ....and I believe that's where we part ways ....

I'm NOT trying to create clones! LOL.

I only want to share what's useful to folks to better their lives. They are responsible for what they do or don't do with what I offer.

I care for even my enemies. Seriously.

My PhD Mormon chairman was getting stuff out of his trunk one day and I noticed the Book of Mormon. I asked him how he handled the contradictions and revisions of the purportedly unrevised book. He said "Life is sooo complex, just about any cock-a-may-mee explanation will do.

I disagree theologically. But he somewhat has a point.

Cheers.

Originally posted by paleorchid13
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

I wanted to add , that my husband agrees with you very much about your last post though. He has always found it difficult to find male friends and doesn't have many. So what you said I hope shines a light for other men for whom that information could help very much

Thanks again for your kind words . . . perhaps I can blather on a bit about this issue for any men courageous enough to consider working on such.

1. TRUST is a serious ATTACHMENT DISORDER ISSUE.

2. Humans are flawed. NO ONE [but Jesus] is 100% trustworthy. We are just too flawed a creature.

3. Folks with ATTACHMENT DISORDER are particularly flawed, handicapped, brain-damaged about relationship formation, maintenance, repair, health etc.

4. NEVERTHELESS, WE CAN GET BETTER--LOTS BETTER--WITH DOGGED EFFORT, PERSISTENT GROWTH, KEEPING OUR EYES ON THE GOAL, bite-sized progress day by day etc.

5. I encourage men to identify 1-4 men they'd like to get closer to. And to approach the men with a reasonable invitation to a deeper friendship of mutual understanding and support of whatever stated parameters and expectations . . . see if the other man is willing to step up to the plate.

6. Men are loathe to risk such invites because REJECTION for a man is sooooooooooo keenly devastatingly felt--SOMEWHAT akin to emotional, existential castration--particularly for ATTACHMENT DISORDERED men. It's virtually like Daddy saying all over again--"YOU'RE A WORTHLESS STUPID PIECE OF STINKY #@&!"

7. 'Get over it.' Easier said than done. Nevertheless, . . . feel the fear and do it anyway. If it falls flat . . . get up and do it again. What's to lose? THE STATUS QUO IS THE PITS . . . and in the near future . . . the status quo may be survival deadly. WE WILL NEED TRUSTWORTHY MALE RELATIONSHIPS AS NEVER BEFORE IN OUR ERA.

8. About the only way to cowboy up IS TO . . . drum roll . . . COWBOY UP AND DO THE DEED--as many times as necessary until it becomes easier and more genuine.

9. Again--what's to lose. Isolation is deadly. Seriously. Physcially deadly--just from an immune system, health perspective . . . not to mention situational survival perspective.

10. Imagine a set of bull's eye circles . . . The outer ring is the LEAST EMOTIONALLY CONNECTED, BONDED, HORRORS--INTIMATE! The center of the bull's eye is the MOST emotionally connected, intimate. The following list of converstational topics/ levels goes from outter ring to the center:

1. Talking about things, objects over there, back then or in the future..
2. Talking about OTHER relatively disconnected from us people over there or back then or in the future.
2.1 Talking about other more connected to us people over there or back then or in the future.
2.2 Talking about other disconnected people here and now--in line at Walmart; another table across the room in a restaurant.
2.3 Talking about other more connected people here and now--relatives at the other end of the Christimas table.
3. Talking about you or me over there, back then, or in the future.
4. Talking about you AND me HERE, NOW.
5. Talking about our feelings about over there or back then or in the future but talking about such here and now.
6. Talking about our feelings for one another here and now.

[color=66CCFF]ANYONE
[color=66CCFF]who wants to move
[color=66CCFF]from less connectedness
[color=66CCFF] to more connectedness
[color=66CCFF]can CHOOSE
[color=66CCFF]to deliberately move down that list
[color=66CCFF]toward greater connecteness
[color=66CCFF]in a specific conversation.

7. Men doing so will likely find it a bit awkward and more than a little scary due to fears of REJECTION and fears of being thought homosexual for even wanting such increased closeness.

8. PERSIST anyway. It's worth it.

9. Men do much better at conversation if working on a HANDS ON TASK together or on a long drive together or sitting fishing or hunting together.

10. Sitting at right angles to one another is better than face to face, which can be confrontational. Sitting side by side fishing is OK to good depending on the men.

Outta characters.

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Originally posted by paleorchid13
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

. . . Had terrible relationships with most foster mothers , but all the males in my life were always fine. Life seemed to reinforce my perceptions.

Further blather . . .

I'm a bit curious . . . Have you TENDED to be overly accepting of males because there was such a 'FATHER DEFICIT' . . . male affirmation deficit?

How discrimminating have you become? Better?

What criteria do you use to distinguish between safe males vs not so safe males?

Is your hubby encouraged by you to stand up for himself, take leadership as fitting etc?

Can you be candid with males in general and hubby in particular?

Can you ask for what you need/want from them assertively?

Can you give them candid but non-bitchy, non groveling feedback?

Can you affirm them in ways that are energizing, enlivening without diminishing yourself?

Just curious about such things given all you've said.

I had an awful time with women and the female sex in general for the longest time, and I still always gear towards favoring the men's side of things . I always fit in with the boys and sought my sense of identity and esteem from hanging with "the guys" and male relationships.

Perfectly reasonable, given all the givens in your life.

I bet it has been an "E-ticket ride," however. True?

I found some wonderful role models , and friendships that helped me, and at the same time , landed me in some pretty unhealthy relationships.

NO DOUBT! How much healing has been achieved on all that? Are you still moving forward with it or is too much of it still too buried and glossed over?

Now I'm simply more apathetic towards everyone,

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the consequence or result. Sigh.

Small wonder.

My wife and I once had a peer aged gal live with us. And Noel used to incredulously ask me--she had been part of a family I'd worked with due to a sister who was extremely addictive and dysfunctional etc.--so Noel had seen me work first hand for more than a year well before her rooming with my wife and I.

Anyway--Noel used to incredulously ask me--HOW ON EARTH I could take so much rejection, criticism, misunderstanding, flack and get back up and wade into risking yet again in relationships sacrificially, vulnerably, servant-heartedly.

Even back then 30+ years ago . . . it was worth it. Isolation was always worse.

And, my relationship with Jesus was worth it. He had paid such a huge price for me . . . and asked me to love others, wasn't it the least I could do? I deeply wanted to live my relationship with Him out rather than just mouth words.

But it was never very easy. Being a bird of rare plumage and an intense one at that . . . always entailed some level of rejection and misunderstanding sooner or later.

Since then, my wife left me for her co-worker after 9 years of marriage. [left him 9 years later, too! LOL--yeah, she had father issues--an emotionally incestuous relationship with him as he took 10 years to die of cancer--wheee]

And, I've had tons of other horrific rejection from some very closest relationships.

Maybe there's an Energizer Bunny buried inside somewhere.

I just know that it does not make sense to me to live any other way.

RELATIONSHIPS are the only thing worth bothering with.

For me, that begins and is overridden by my relationship with God.

But from that, RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE are what matter next most.

Nothing else is worth a gnat's fart.

So I persist. I get wounded. Sometimes it seems like I bleed near to death. And by God's grace, I get back up and plod along. I don't know how else to live. I don't want to know how to live any other way.

Everything else is bleakness, meaninglessness and horrific worthlessness and pain and suffering beyond measure.

IF LOVING RELATIONSHIPS ARE NOT IMPORTANT . . . what is?

very selective about who I let in my personal life, and around women, I'm very careful what I talk about. However, I see that as a wonderful thing. Life has been so much easier.

Yeah. WISDOM IS WISDOM. There's no substitute for wisdom. Wisdom is best.

Sometimes risking is best--WISE risking.

Ooooops 93 characers left--72

What a thread!

I have had to "self help" for many years and I guess I say had to because for me... I know myself better than anyone. I know what I have been through, plus when I have gone to counsel it was kind of "cheesy" not really helpful.

You seem to really KNOW your "stuff". lol

My friends come to me when they have issues and I seem to call on one or two loved ones but sometimes it is nice to talk with someone who is educated in helping but in a distant way. (like YOU)

I definitely have RAD!!!!

My birthday was on Wednesday and I turned 39. I received a card from my "real" dad and step mom and it made me angry and hurt for several days.

It seems to be one of a few things that I cannot release for some reason. I have tried and tried to forgive not only my step mom, dad, but my brother as well. I could find it easier to forgive IF they were not still hurting me. The only way I can prevent them from NOT hurting me is to just rid them of my life and I find that hard to do as well.

So.....if you want another one to help...here I am.

Thanks again for the thread and If you don't have time to talk with me...I understand. Life can be hectic.

Jenn

Originally posted by paleorchid13
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

Would you say that a person with RAD can exhibit behaviors towards only a specific group of people like sex , age , race, religion ..or would it only be a diagnoses to explain a general set of behaviors that cripple ones ability to build all healthy relationships; . . ..

Great question.

imho, RAD GENERALLY

TENDS TO BE

BOTH

A) GENERALIZED TO ALL RELATIONSHIPS

B) PARTICULARLY problematic WITH CERTAIN FAMILIAR TRIGGERING SORTS OF RELATIONSHIPS, CONTEXTS, PERSONALITIES.

PTSD is certainly applicable as a label per the RAD generating early life experiences. So, there's a lot of overlap. I'd have to ponder good and long as to where the overlap would not exist. Mostly, there's a ton of overlap.

The RAD generating early experiences TEND to HARDWIRE in certain RELATIONSHIP REFLEXES--

REFLEXES that TEND to be quite dysfunctional to even very self-destructive and certainly very relationship destructive--which circles back around to be self-destructive.

That's where the RAD generating experiences result in literal BRAIN DAMAGE.

The brain is hardwired to go down dysfunctional routes and to avoid healthy, functional, healing, energizing, enlivening, affirming relationship sorts of stuff because such APPROACHES in the past have resulted in extreme pain, rejection, abuse, discomfort, shock, fear, disconfirmation, feelings of worthlessness etc.

And many times . . . the line between can appear and even be somewhat thin.

THE SAME behaviors can be effected with a heart-felt smile and open hearted generosity with the same words.

OR

The SAME behaviors can be effected with a cynical, sterile, punitive, harsh, teeth gritted pseudo-smile and the same words.

THAT CAN BE very CRAZY MAKING for a young child.

So, the child learns to just turn off all emotions to anything close to such confusing stimuli.

Maybe I should list the types of ATTACHMENT DISORDER . . . a little late in the thread but anyway . . .

This link gives as good a description as and better than many:

www.radkid.org...

Please KEEP IN MIND that the DEGREE of such themes, habits, traits, syndromes is an important, crucial, serious factor.

[color=99CCFF]SECURE (healthy) ATTACHMENT

Competent, appropriately self-reliant
Self-confident, good self-esteem
Resilient
Cheerful much of the time
Able to recognize and anticipate needs of others
Able to empathize with others
Humorous, playful
Appropriately distrustful of strangers
Able to use emotional, mental, and physical resources
Able to make appropriate commitments
Interacts with others

[color=99CCFF]RESISTANT ATTACHMENT

Clingy, but sometimes rejecting
Stressed, tense
Impulsive
Passive, defeatist
Volatile temper tantrums, rages
Difficulty making commitments or following through
Difficulty in school
Irritable
Reactive
Engages in high risk activities
Co-dependent, and not fully self-reliant

[color=99CCFF]AVOIDANT ATTACHMENT

Actively hostile
Bullying
Whiny
Needy, yet distant
Compulsively self-reliant
Unable to make or keep commitments
Isolated
Blames others for mistakes
Unable to show affection
Easily angered
Tends to be vengeful
Likely to abuse alcohol or drugs
Engages in high risk activities

[color=99CCFF]DISORGANIZED ATTACHMENT (can be most severe)

Often crosses other three types
Depressed
Inhibited
Not easily comforted
Anxious
Clingy, to anyone
Vulnerable to stranger abuse
Unachieving, unmotivated

One can see in the above that BOTH RAD and PTSD would certainly both result in, exhibit a lot of those traits and behaviors.

Actually, we can say . . . one cannot have RAD WITHOUT also having PTSD, imho.

The AVOIDANT and DISORGANIZED can be very challenging to treat.

Here's a couple of articles that I believe are among the best on the topic of RAD and treatment of kids with RAD:

NOTE: Scroll down. Looks like it hasn't loaded the article at the top because of lots of white space

ATTACHMENT: THE FIRST CORE STRENGTH: Dr Bruce Duncan Perry, M.D. PhD

teacher.scholastic.com...

I keep getting a connection error on the other Dr Perry articles. Here's a substitute:

Attachment & Reactive Attachment Disorders
Warning Signs, Symptoms, Treatment & Hope for Children with Insecure Attachment

www.helpguide.org...

Helpful guidelines are near the bottom.

If you have specific questions about the above, please feel free.

I'm likely to go back to bed . . .

only 15 characters left anyway! LOL

Originally posted by MamaJ
What a thread!

Am very humbled and blessed by your kind words. My heart goes out to you. I can sure understand about counesling hassles. Sigh. Sorry on behalf of my profession.

There seems to be little accounting for

--taste
--jerks
--dorks

in all walks of life.

And, a lot of counselors really do go into it trying to find help for themselves. They can make wonderful counselors--research indicates some of the best--IF they get their stuff worked through.

I have had to "self help" for many years and I guess I say had to because for me... I know myself better than anyone. I know what I have been through, plus when I have gone to counsel it was kind of "cheesy" not really helpful.

CONGRATS ON YOUR RESILIENCE AND RESOURCEFULNESS.

I had to do the same thing for similar reasons. Many times pastors or counselors were worse than unhelpful. LOL. Sigh.

You seem to really KNOW your "stuff". lol

Thanks tons for saying so. The TUITION in the school of hard knocks and long dark nights of the soul has been more costly than I even want to remember.

My friends come to me when they have issues and I seem to call on one or two loved ones but sometimes it is nice to talk with someone who is educated in helping but in a distant way. (like YOU)

No sweat. I well understand what you are saying.

I definitely have RAD!!!!

I know very few people who don't, actually.

My birthday was on Wednesday and I turned 39. I received a card from my "real" dad and step mom and it made me angry and hurt for several days.

Would you be willing to list 5-7 specific things about the card incident that were painful, please?

It seems to be one of a few things that I cannot release for some reason.

You can continue to use the word "cannot," if you wish. DOING SO will decrease your ability to let poison go and flush it down the drain. It would be MORE FUNCTIONAL for you to say:

I have not YET LEARNED HOW TO let it go.

Words matter--a lot. They are like scripts . . . even inner orders to ourselves.

I have tried and tried to forgive not only my step mom, dad, but my brother as well. I could find it easier to forgive IF they were not still hurting me. The only way I can prevent them from NOT hurting me is to just rid them of my life and I find that hard to do as well.

VERY UNDERSTANDABLE AND TYPICAL.

IF I'm going to be of help . . . I will need a sizeable chunk of cooperation and earnest effort. FULLY YOUR CHOICE IN EVERY DETAIL AND STEP. I will note that walking this out in public like this may help thousands of other people.

[color=99CCFF]1. FORGIVENESS, LIKE LOVE, AND MOST OF LIFE

[color=99CCFF]IS A CHOICE.

1. Let's deal with FEELINGS a bit.

2. FEELINGS are 'merely' information. They can be useful information or utterly destructive information. They can warn you of desperately needed action like getting out of a burning building from the sense of foreboding before even smellling the smoke. Or, they can be triggers for suicidally destroying one's self.

3. FEELINGS make

[color=99CCFF]TOLERABLE SERVANTS

and

[color=FF0000]HORRIBLE SLAVE MASTERS.

4. FEELINGS are NOT

--air, water, food, housing, clothing, shelter, transportation, hobbies, or even sex--though they can help make sex more fun.

[color=99CCFF]5. DECIDE that you are going to MANAGE YOUR FEELINGS instead of

[color=99CCFF]ALLOWING your FEELINGS TO !!!!CONTROL!!!! YOU.

[color=99CCFF]AND THE MAXIMUM ABSURDITY

is to allow other JERKS and dysfunctional people

to

[color=99CCFF]!!!!CONTROL!!!! YOUR FEELINGS! !DOH! !DUMB!
but common and 'normal.'

Whenever you realize that some other dysfunctional person has TAKEN CHARGE OF YOUR FEELINGS

by 'causing' you to feel anger, hostility, depression, vengeful, etc. . . .

DISCONNECT the puppet wire from them to your feelings. Say "STOP! ENOUGH! OUTTA DA POOL! I'M TAKING CHARGE OF MY OWN FEELINGS !NOW!"

Then decide what the most functional feeling to have would be and EARNESTLY, in personal good faith in yourself to be able to do it--step out acting as though you fully felt it until you do.

Thanks again for the thread and If you don't have time to talk with me...I understand. Life can be hectic.

Jenn

[color=99CCFF]YOU ARE WORTH IT.

Running out of characters.

I may have to wait for the rest of this until after a nap or even after I get back from taking my friend to the airport.

Blessings,
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reply to post by BO XIAN


TO ALL:

Heading for the airport in an hour or so . . .

NOTE: I'm 65 years old . . . essentially retired living with my step-dad and a housemate.

I get $361/mo Soc Sec as I was overseas in Asia for 15 years as a self-supporting missionary teaching and giving away most of my expendable income to students in books, meals, tea times. I've always tended to give away most of what I had to others. I take literally the bit about treasures in Heaven.

I can only offer more or less generic educational information somewhat tailored to your presentations on the net of your experiences.

I can't, per se, function as anyone's ongoing, long term therapist etc. Most need face to face regular meetings for that.

NEVERTHELESS, I'm happy and honored to offer whatever information and experiences I have to anyone presenting situations on ATS from their experiences and lives that they'd like informed & well trained input on.

Y'all would/will just have to take it FWIW--free--and do with it as you see fit and at y'all's own risk. The distances, complexities and uncertainties are too great for anything more formal than that. Besides, I haven't had any formal counseling relationships or setups in the USA for 30 years or more.

IF that's clear and acceptable, then, by all means, feel free to ask me questions and consider my input.

Blessings,

reply to post by MamaJ




[color=99CCFF]FORGIVENESS

IS a huge issue.

UNFORGIVENESS can keep an individual imprisoned in a merciless torture chamber their whole lives. While the perpetrator goes merrily on without a thought to your hurting.

And, in my experiences and observations, there's something about God or the universe that causes the perpetrators to FACE THEIR EVILS

MUCH MORE AND MUCH MORE QUICKLY

AFTER

they are forgiven. It is almost as though the unforgiving person is IN THE WAY of the victims having to face themselves fully until they are forgiven.

It is a whole different issue as to whether to or how much to allow poisonous people in one's life.

I had to limit my mother to calls and what she said on calls for several years in order to survive. And when they visited overseas . . . I made clear that she had to be on her best behavior or they would be on their own. Miraculously, she was--for 3 weeks! Amazing.

So, your expectations CAN have effect.

You could consider writing a letter spelling out what kind of relationship and what kinds of times together you'd be interested in having. Be specific about what are acceptable topics and statements and what's unacceptable.

Make sure you meet in a neutral place like a restaurant. If they violate the standards, get up immediately and walk out. Refuse all contact for 2-4 weeks.

If they are trainable, you should be able to slowly train them to have a civil meeting with you. If they are not trainable, what have you lost, really?

In terms of the forgiveness and feeling forgiving.

Those are two different issues.

The major task is the DECISION TO FORGIVE.

That is life to you. It decreases the cortisol in your blood that corrodes your arteries etc.

Every time the memory or thought or feeling comes up--DECLARE TO YOURSELF and the universe that you choose to forgive them and you are forgiving them.

Persist in declaring forgiveness until the high octane inner ping goes away. It may take hours or days or weeks or months. Persist.

Initially, declare who you are forgiving and for what, specifically. Write it all out if you see fit. You can even write it all out and send it to them.

If there are things you need to confess and forgive yourself for, that's worth doing, imho, too.

If there are things you need to apologize/repent to them for and ask their forgiveness for--that's very worthwhile doing.

IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE, you will be miserable until you do. You will carry baggage around that will poison your joy as well as your physical health. It will also poison all your relationships--particularly your closer relationships.

There's simply no healthy choice but to forgive.

Besides, the FREEDOM that comes and the lighter weight of daily life are sooooo worth it.

Without forgiveness, it is like giving your worst enemy a spiked ball and chain to flail you with fairly constantly.

Take the ball and chain away from your enemy and forgive, by forgiving.

UNFORGIVENESS casts you in the role of

SUPREMELY ALL KNOWING DETECTIVE, PROSECUTOR, JUDGE, JURY AND EXECUTIONER.

Do you really know THAT much about all the inner thoughts and feelings of your jerky relatives on the other end? Have you walked in their dysfunctional, addicted-to-meanness-and-bitterness psyche's and souls year in and year out--or at all?

They are in a worse prison than yours. They can't even see their own compulsive stabbing all they hold dear.

Regardless, if you want peace, wholeness, joy, serenity--you MUST forgive. There's no other choice.

I need to leave for the airport.

reply to post by BO XIAN


LOL.

Didn't mean to scare anyone away.

Just meant to signal folks who might be lurkers . . .

to avoid depending overmuch on net help--even mine--

IF IF IF IF

THEY REALLY NEED

LONG TERM FACE TO FACE THERAPY.

Face to face consultation has a LOT more content in terms of key nonverbal communication that net text based communication necessarily lacks. Sometimes those nuances mean an enormous amount to the process. Avoid missing out on that when that's what's needed.

For those who need a verbal caring kick in the rear to persist in working out their own health . . . and who can understand and make wise judgments about net type inputs . . . more power to you. There's a lot that a diversity of perspectives on the net can offer.

Just avoid accepting a bandaid as sufficient if an amputation is crucial for life--so to speak.

reply to post by dbates



Above, I posted a description of the DIFFERENT TYPES OF

ATTACHMENT DISORDER . . . they listed the various features of each.

www.radkid.org...

Y'ALL CAN DO YOUR OWN SELF ASSESSMENT 'TEST' USING THAT LISTING.

Write down a number 1-10 or whatever for each of the features for each of the TYPES of ATTACHMENT DISORDER.

So you'd have:


[color=3399CC]ANXIOUS or RESISTANT ATTACHMENT

www.radkid.org...

1. Clingy, but sometimes rejecting
2. Stressed, tense
3. Impulsive
4. Passive, defeatist
5. Volatile temper tantrums, rages
6. Difficulty making commitments or following through
7. Difficulty in school
8. Irritable
9. Reactive
10. Engages in high risk activities
11. Co-dependent, and not fully self-reliant

[color=3399CC]AVOIDANT ATTACHMENT

www.radkid.org...

1. Actively hostile
2. Bullying
3. Whiny
4. Needy, yet distant
5. Compulsively self-reliant
6. Unable to make or keep commitments
7. Isolated
8. Blames others for mistakes
9. Unable to show affection
10. Easily angered
11. Tends to be vengeful
12. Likely to abuse alcohol or drugs
13. Engages in high risk activities

[color=3399CC]FEARFUL or DISORGANIZED ATTACHMENT
[color=3399CC]Can be the most severe in terms of difficulty treating
[color=3399CC]and in terms of dysfunctional complications in life

www.radkid.org...

1. Often crosses other three types
2. Depressed
3. Inhibited
4. Not easily comforted
5. Anxious
6. Clingy, to anyone
7. Vulnerable to stranger abuse
8. Unachieving, unmotivated

[color=3399CC]SECURE ATTACHMENT

1. Competent, appropriately self-reliant
2. Self-confident, good self-esteem
3. Resilient
4. Cheerful much of the time
5. Able to recognize and anticipate needs of others
6. Able to empathize with others
7. Humorous, playful
8. Appropriately distrustful of strangers
9. Able to use emotional, mental, and physical resources
10. Able to make appropriate commitments
11. Interacts with others

NOTE: I want to also use the items listed for the FEARFUL type of ATTACHMENT DISORDER from the book:

GOD ATTACHMENT by Dr Tim Clinton and Joshua Straub

They go through the 4 ATTACHMENT types and list personality/relationship tendencies for each one. They assert that if you say YES, that describes your style, tendencies for each item--and you have 3 or more for that TYPE of ATTACHMENT, then that type of ATTACHMENT is a major component in your life.

They note that most of us have some of all the ATTACHMENT types in our lives but tend to way more emphasize primarily ONE ATTACHMENT type over the rest of them.

IF with the ATTACHMENT types listed above--or with the relationship traits listed in their book, you come up with 3 or more per type--then you know what TYPE of ATTACHMENT you tend to emphasize and better how to tackle correcting such dynamics and issues in your life.

I'm using the items listed in their book for the FEARFUL ATTACHMENT type because they are more robust in their listing. And, I think, thereby, more useful and more accurate.

1. My feelings are very confusing to me, so I try not to feel them
2. My feelings are very intense and overwhelming.
3. I feel torn between wanting to be close to others and wanting to pull away.
4. My partner complains that sometimes I'm really needy and clingy and other times I'm distant and aloof.
5. I have a difficult time letting others get close to me, but once I let them in, I worry about being abandoned or rejected.
6. I feel very vulnerable in close relationships.
7. Sometimes I feel very disconnected form myself and my feelings.
8. I can't decide whether or not I want to be in close relationships.
9. Other people can reallyhurt you if you let them get too close.
10. Close relationships are difficult to come by because people tend to be unpredictable in their actions and behaviors.

IF ANY OF YOU WANT TO DO SUCH A TALLY on yourselves . . . and would like to know therefore what might you do to overcome such an ATTACHMENT TYPE, you can let me know and I'll see what I can come up with for you.

[color=3399CC]All can play . . . for free. LOL. The only thing you have to lose, is staying the same.

Running out of characters . . .

dbates . . . maybe I fixed it. Will see shortly

.
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reply to post by BO XIAN

I have long contended--primarily because of my experiences as a psychology professor but also due to my experiences as a clinical psychologist that ATTACHMENT DISORDER was PRIMARILY the responsibility of poor fathering.

No doubt there may be some physiological components that affect RAD, but humans are the sum of their experiences in life. The brain is a complex organ, neural pathways to this day still are not completely understood. I believe that socialization may have an impact on the attachment factor. I minored in sociology and one of the things i picked up was that a person's upbringing can have a significant impact on their outlook on life and how their relationships develop (or even if they can develope).

In families that are dysfunctional you can see a clear and marked increase in social deviants, like children who commit crimes and who grow up to be adults who commit crimes. A person who is not properly socialized during the childhood phase can have a predisposition to become a social deviant and a criminal in is adulthood. During my stint as a correctional officer, one of the most popular story given by inmates was that their upbringing caused them to be predisposed to crinimal activity. Sometimes it's just a cop-out but it does happen, especially in families where the children are ignored, or physically/mentally/sexually or emotionally abused.

Looking at America today we see an increase in gun crime commited by children at school where they murder classmates who pick on them, shoot them or stab them because when they get stressed they have no way to let off steam, usually because they do not believe their parents care or understand them or maybe their parents really just do not care and it leaves them with no outlet, and without a person they can talk to. This factor can also be impacted on by the government and it's insistance on meddling in affairs within the homes of its citizens by limiting a parents authority at home;. Nowadays children and teens have become the parent and the parent has become the child. The roles have totally been reversed. if a parent threatens to spank a child because they do not clean their rooms or they backtalk and are disobedient and rebellious, the child threatens to call social services on their parent.

When considering RAD, i would look for the physiological components first and then begin looking at the persons upbringing and socialization. Psychology and sociology kinda go hand in hand, as both can and usually do have an effect on the other.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

No doubt there may be some physiological components that affect RAD, but humans are the sum of their experiences in life. The brain is a complex organ, neural pathways to this day still are not completely understood. I believe that socialization may have an impact on the attachment factor. I minored in sociology and one of the things i picked up was that a person's upbringing can have a significant impact on their outlook on life and how their relationships develop (or even if they can develope).

In families that are dysfunctional you can see a clear and marked increase in social deviants, like children who commit crimes and who grow up to be adults who commit crimes. A person who is not properly socialized during the childhood phase can have a predisposition to become a social deviant and a criminal in is adulthood. During my stint as a correctional officer, one of the most popular story given by inmates was that their upbringing caused them to be predisposed to crinimal activity. Sometimes it's just a cop-out but it does happen, especially in families where the children are ignored, or physically/mentally/sexually or emotionally abused.

. . . This factor can also be impacted on by the government and it's insistance on meddling in affairs within the homes of its citizens by limiting a parents authority at home;. Nowadays children and teens have become the parent and the parent has become the child. The roles have totally been reversed. if a parent threatens to spank a child because they do not clean their rooms or they backtalk and are disobedient and rebellious, the child threatens to call social services on their parent.

When considering RAD, i would look for the physiological components first and then begin looking at the persons upbringing and socialization. Psychology and sociology kinda go hand in hand, as both can and usually do have an effect on the other.

INDEED.

However, it's all a kind of reciprocal relationship.

Poor parenting--particularly poor fathering produces BOTH the brain damage associated with

and the

dysfunctional parenting

and the

dysfunctional socialization that results from and really is the dysfunctional parenting.

We 'could' trace dysfunction back to at least Noah and then to Adam.

Children ask 2 questions from their earliest age:

1. Am I worthy of love--am I loveable?

2. Are others accessible, available, trustworthy to love me?

[color=3399CC]IF
[color=3399CC]THE ANSWERS TO THOSE TWO QUESTIONS IS
[color=3399CC]YES,
[color=3399CC]THEN
[color=3399CC]THE CHILD WILL BE BRAIN-HEALTHY
[color=3399CC]AND WELL SOCIALIZED
[color=3399CC]AND A PRODUCTIVE, HEALTHY LOVING ADULT.

[color=996666]IF
[color=996666]THE ANSWER TO ONE OR BOTH THOSE QUESTIONS IS
[color=996666]NO,
[color=996666]THEN
[color=996666]THE CHILD WILL BE BRAIN-DAMAGED
[color=996666]AND POORLY SOCIALIZED
[color=CC9999]AND A DYSFUNCTIONAL ADULT DESTRUCTIVE TO THEMSELVES & OTHERS.

[color=CC6666]IIRC 95% of U.S. prisoners have serious degrees of ATTACHMENT DISORDER.

It's a vicious circle.

And it doesn't end unless ATTACHMENT DISORDERED individuals get healed and learn to do the opposite to what was done to them.
.
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reply to post by BO XIAN

And it doesn't end unless ATTACHMENT DISORDERED individuals get healed and learn to do the opposite to what was done to them.

Thats what happened to me. I had been physically, mentally and emotionally abused by my bi-polar dad from the age of 3 to the age of 17 when i ran away. The whole part of me running away was i was ready to kill him in his sleep, went to far as to put a knife to his throat but somehow i knew i was at a crossroad. It was like i could hear this...force, call it a demon or what but i could almost hear something tell me "do it, and you will have all the power in the world, do it and you will no longer be afraid". At that point i began to feel a wave a nausea and revulsion and i had an epiphany, that killing him wasn't worth it, that i would pay too heavy a price.

I tried going to the church pastor first and telling him about the abuse, he told me that i was lying and that my dad was a man of God and he couldn't do such things and that he refused to believe it. After feeling dejected i went to the youth pastor who believed me because he spent more time with me and was seeing the signs of abuse. It caused a giant rift in the church and it tore that church apart, that pastor never did apologize to me and he retired from pastorship about a year later.

This was the starting point of where i spiraled down into a dark pit of hatred, anger and despair and when i started turning agnostic. Anytime i saw a christian or people going to church i saw nothing but hypocrits and i refused to have anything to do with christianity or the church for 14 years. I fell into darkness and was being consumed from within. I had done things i couldn't forgive myself for in my madness. It was a very dark place i existed in and i was alone and i felt alone and i couldn't even count on my own family because they knew the abuse had been going on and they did nothing. I eventually turned back to Christ and tried to mend those broken fences but to this day it still just feels...fake.

It is very hard to turn back from the "Darkside of the Force", most people once they start down that path do not turn back. Case in point i knew this fellow i will call "Breck". Anyways Breck had a mirror image upbringing as i did, except he turned to a life of drugs and crime, repeat robbery and had been in and ou of juvenile detention centers since he was 10. By the time i had become a C.O. he had been in the prison system. He was actually the ex-boyfriend of the woman i was dating, i suppose you could say she had a thing for Yin and Yang, drawn to light and darkness and just as conflicted as me or Breck. I knew even in my low 20's that once you begin down that dark road, 95% of the time there is no turning back but she wouldn't give up on him. I told her one day he was going to end up murdering someone, because he had that loose cannon "vibe" to him i could feel like a jackhammer rattling in the back of my skull, and i knew he was a bad dude throough to the core. Couple months later Breck got into an arguement while he was drunk with another fellow who was married and had 2 kids, and one night after the guy got home, he walked over to his apartment and shot him dead right in front of his wife and 2 kids standing there watching.

It's hard to turn away from evil, but it is doable if you have Jesus. Nothing is impossible through him and there are many those who are able to turn away from evil because of him. Some people think he isn't real but from what i have seen firsthand and experienced you cannot tell me he isn't, i have seen miracles from him first hand, and i am one of them. I should have been dead long time ago, most of the people i grew up with are dead and in the ground and i'm only 32, and by all righs i should be one of them, but i was chosen to bear witness for some reason to this day i do not know.