The Bible and the war against God's true and only work.

Originally posted by Vsc1981
If these words are words of pagan stories then you are living in a farie tale. I'm not here to change anyones mind nor am trying to judge. Because i keep God's word doesn't make me stupid or dumb. And your going to try and tell me that the Israel of today isn't the Israel that God gave to his chosen people is a ridiculous statement. Jerusalem is in Israel and Jerusalem is in the bible. If you don't take my word then read the bible. All of you thats calling me crazy and stupid read the bible. I challenge to read it. Front to back. You can't say you know the bible is fake or false or pagan stories if you haven't read it. Just read The Revelation Of Jesus Christ. Come on read it. Don't talk down on somebody cause they believe in the bible. Thats whats wrong with our country and the world today.

"Deny Ignorance".
OP, I would suggest you THOROUGHLY do some research into every piece of evidence that is NOT pro-bible.
Once you have that information, you can look into the validity of evidence that is both for, and against.
If the information proves the bible WRONG to you, you have gained a new, educated position.
If the information proves the bible to be TRUE to you, then you have strengthened your knowledge on what you currently believe.

Deny ignorance.

Originally posted by Vsc1981
If these words are words of pagan stories then you are living in a farie tale. I'm not here to change anyones mind nor am trying to judge. Because i keep God's word doesn't make me stupid or dumb. And your going to try and tell me that the Israel of today isn't the Israel that God gave to his chosen people is a ridiculous statement. Jerusalem is in Israel and Jerusalem is in the bible. If you don't take my word then read the bible. All of you thats calling me crazy and stupid read the bible. I challenge to read it. Front to back. You can't say you know the bible is fake or false or pagan stories if you haven't read it. Just read The Revelation Of Jesus Christ. Come on read it. Don't talk down on somebody cause they believe in the bible. Thats whats wrong with our country and the world today.

Again...believe what you like...just don't quote incorrect realities that can be proven. The Bible has thousands of mistranslations...one of the Biggest is that Moses Parted the RED SEA. He did not. Moses CROSSED the REED SEA...a Grassy Tidal Area near the Med. where Moses and his followers crossed at low tide and as the Egyptians Army and Chariots began to cross in Hot Pursuit....the Tide came rushing in...swamping both Men and Chariots and unlike the Bible...this event did not kill alot of Egyptians...rather rendered their chase...useless.

The Church and Vatican KNOWS this to be a false story based on a Mistranslation from ancient text...go ahead and google it...it is true. The Church has not changed this in the Bible because even though they KNOW it was based on a mistranslation...a change this many years gone by my do damage to the Faith. But this is a TRUTH and a REALITY. This is why you should not swing around that word...IGNORANCE. Split Infinity

op... start reading Jeremiah, ok? read about the backsliding of Judah and Israel and all of the lords multiple chances and requests for repentance... up to the point where it says that he will punish a list of nations for being uncircumcised in the heart... and Israel is one. this is just ONE example and his anger and talk of divorce goes on and on and on and on in Jeremiah because of how angry he is... untill destruction ensues, untill only a remnant of his people are saved... which is the beginning of the probation period for israel that daniel recieved prophecy of.

and then before the probation period was over and the kingdom returned with a rightful heir (Jesus)... they screwed it all up again.

Ok?

Don't tell others to read the bible, unless you are willing to crack your own. ok?

reply to post by Vsc1981


I have read Revelation many times over. It is my second favourite book of the Bible actually (with Genesis being my first). However, with so many different translations of the Bible available today, I am curious as to which you use personally and/or recommend.

reply to post by Vsc1981


Only those with ears to listen can hear. Only those with eyes to see can see. You can't convince someone of faith, you can only testify to your belief. Trying to counter those statements held in anger against your belief will never succeed, because their mind is made up, and it is against the belief which you hold.

On this forum you will find people willing to engage in intelligent conversation. You've even read them in some of these posts. But there will also be those that will simply slander you because thier philosophy (spelt wrong, apologizes) doesn't adhere (that one too) to their own.

Stating your reasons and the strength of you belief will go futher than disagreeing unto end with those that willl never hear you.

I apologize if this comes off in anything but a supportive statement to say if you hold your faith so strongly, there is nothing wrong with that, or stating it proudly, but to be caught in a mucky muck of those that belief you're blinded when you believe you see won't open their eyes.

As for counter points, I know those that roam this forum can keep them both civil and intelligent, so simply calling someone ignorante for what they have been taught and believe belittles yourself more than any post.

But that's just the humble opinion of myself, take it for what you will.

If a persons Faith cannot stand on truth...and this faith can only be sen and heard by those of some sort of special perception....then that Faith is of little worth. Split Infinity

Whats in my heart is true. Whats in my mind is left to question. Jesus Christ has my heart and therefore is true. I know one day that we all shall answer to Him for He answered for us. I will not turn my back on Him and i will continue to try and help turn them back to Him. I don't care how much history somebody thinks they know when it comes to the bible unless they've read it then they know no history. I know deep down that even atheists still think about God otherwise they wouldn't deny Him. I grant you most atheist have never pick a bible up. But yet they want to claim they don't believe. Who cares what people think? And thats what their worried about. What people will think of them. Oh they'll think I'm stupid or I'm weak or I'm a loser or I'm a wimp. I say owell cause I've m8 Jesus

Hi and welcome to ATS.
What makes the bible any more important than the Qur'an, Torah, Veda, or the folk stories passed on from generation to generation in indigenous cultures? What happens to those that haven't 'heard the word of god' or weren't proselytized? What if for example, the messengers of god brutally raped, murdered, and torture those people, would you hold it against them for not believing the religion of their abusers? What makes your religion and your book any better than another's? I would hesitate to call your book the true word of god. I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to discount all other words and works of god(s), especially those the bible likes to borrow heavily from. I know the bible has been twisted and manipulated to fit whatever ruling body needed a tool to keep the masses at bay, but that doesn't make the original any more true or less true than the religious works that came before it.

Thanks and I wish you the best.

reply to post by Vsc1981

Again...I am not questioning what you believe. I am questioning why it neessary to invade on my beliefs?
Split Infinity

reply to post by Vsc1981


I'm an atheist and I've read the bible, along with the Torah, Qur'an, Buddhist teachings, Hinduist books, books on Shinto, the folk stories of the American Indians, Greek mythology, Norse mythology, etc. etc. etc.

I'm happy if your path to god makes you happy, but many atheist have read the bible and in some cases its the source of their disbelief. Have you read any other religious text besides the bible and part of the Torah (the old testament)? Have you read the Apocrypha or any other books the committee decided to leave out of the bible? I'm not being sarcastic or presumptuous I'm asking honest questions.

I read the Holy Bible King James version. And I'm not tryin to push my religious beliefs on anyone. I'm just trying to get people to thinking. I know there is a ton of different religions and books and beliefs. I'm not saying stop believing what you believe in. But you have to agree that in your hearts you always feel Jesus tugging at it. How do you think i started feeling the way? By no means am i perfect and I've done way more than my fair share of sinning. I'll be a sinner till i die and unless your a saint so will you. But look don't throw down on me cause i believe in God and Jesus and the bible. Not one time have i said anything out of the way to anybody on here. And I've had some mean things said to me. But if i can get one person to think just think about Jesus then i feel better. Not change your beliefs or religion but just think aboutHim and what he went through for our sins. I'm sorry if I've offended anybody.

Welcome to ATS by the way. I got a bit caught up in all the posts.
I have to say though, in general, one can't sign up to a conspiracy related forum, make a post about their beliefs and then get angry when people challenge them.
It is a well known fact that the biblical canon was put together by the Council of Trent, they decided on which books went into the testaments, they decided that the books that are more in following with the others would be kept in, and the Apocryphal books would be removed (because they contained the notion that Jesus had a wife, and children, among other things)
They pushed for the idea of purgatory to be kept in the Bible.
You can't accept you know something, until you know where it came from.

And I'm sorry, I can't agree that I have felt Jesus pulling on my heart (unless I've just run up a long flight of stairs lol).
I just do not believe in Jesus, and I do not believe in the Christian God. I think faith is something you acquire through learning and being taught by others, it is not something you can turn on and off because someone tells you you should believe in it.
I accept graciously that you take Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour, just like I accept that in your eyes, my exceptional lack of faith will ensure I never go to Heaven. I'm cool with that.
I won't go and read the Bible, just as you won't go and look at anything someone who doesn't believe tells you to look at.

Originally posted by outwired
reply to post by Vsc1981

 

I'm an atheist and I've read the bible, along with the Torah, Qur'an, Buddhist teachings, Hinduist books, books on Shinto, the folk stories of the American Indians, Greek mythology, Norse mythology, etc. etc. etc.

I'm happy if your path to god makes you happy, but many atheist have read the bible and in some cases its the source of their disbelief. Have you read any other religious text besides the bible and part of the Torah (the old testament)? Have you read the Apocrypha or any other books the committee decided to leave out of the bible? I'm not being sarcastic or presumptuous I'm asking honest questions.

I have been wanting to get into the apocrypha because of this meddling and controlling that we all know most likely happened. I still find value in the bible but most importantly, I feel Jesus and Jesus is the spirit that binds all of those who suffer but do not turn and cause suffering... but rather tries to fix the suffering. people say that the world is full of creation and destruction and love and also hate and all these things must exist to be aware of the other, but wouldn't you rather be with the group that sticks together and tries to fix things and comfort each other and remember each other, than the destructive forces that separate, divide, do not care and do not see...and simply forget. those who live in hate will be repaid with their own hate (not speaking to the atheist poster i quoted, that is his choice and if he is not a bad person, who knows... maybe he will change his mind just in time... it's more about what is in your heart than the books you read, Jesus even talks about that)... i'm just saying in general. I certainly don't believe all atheist will go to hell because there are things they can simply not know and if they think a religion has caused suffering, then they are still not without principle. I like to think there is hope for all as all is god's creation... yes, even other books. What is important to me is the perspective we choose. Is it one of inflicting pain and projecting our will unto others? If so, then shouldn't that be what we get in return... if not, then why could we not carry on in spirit remembering each other and comforting each other through cycles of creation and destruction...with acceptance of god and understanding.... instead of doing it in pain, fighting each other the entire way? Feeling every painful molecule of every starburst, every agonizing empty abyss of every black hole... instead of regarding that which is to be avoided and finding the glory of God in every one of his wonderful and frightening creations?

I know whats been said about Jesus. But its like being in a relationship with somebody your in love with. If they cheat on you and you separate and maybe 6 months down the road you decide your still in love and want to be with them then you start dating again obviously you forgave them. And you basically have to forget about what happened to have a relationship again. So what Jesus did He answered for. And just like He answered for His we will ours. Its not about what He did before He was crucified its about He died for our sins and He will be back for those that believe before we're destroyed with the earth.

reply to post by Vsc1981


You haven't offended me, I'm just curious why one would take one religious text and declare it to be the end all be all, without having read others. Jesus / god / the holy spirit or whatever incarnation has never tugged at my heart. I don't think any differently of a person based on what he / she believes as long as that belief never infringes on another person. You are free to choose any path to god / enlightenment you wish and by doing so it doesn't make you any less or any more of a 'man' than me.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
If a persons Faith cannot stand on truth...and this faith can only be sen and heard by those of some sort of special perception....then that Faith is of little worth. Split Infinity

That Faith is everything to those that have been called to repent of their life in the dark that is strangling this planet. It's everything when His Truth picks you up out of that darkness and places you into the Light of Christ Jesus, opening the Way to a personal relationship with the Creator that grows day by day.

No i love care about every human and every creature upon this earth. No matter religion or race or gender. Its not about that. And if you haven't felt Jesus then maybe you could try to find Him. I'm not trying to push nothing on you its just a suggestion. And if you choose not to then I'm sure He'll come tugging on you one day. I don't want anybody to be against me here I'm just looking to have people thinking of the what could be. You know how would this make me feel if i did this? For example: what if i got on my knees and prayed how would i feel? Would it make me different towards Jesus? What if i tried to read the bible? Would i start reading it on a daily basis? What if i went to church this Sunday? Would i go next Sunday? Just the what if's. It can't hurt to try so why not thats why i started this thread. And I'm calling peoples beliefs or religion ignorant. I'm calling the name calling and down talking on me ignorant. Thats just not fair in so many ways.

Originally posted by Vaehne
Is the Bible you refer to here the original work or the currently 'accepted' version approved by Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicea?

That is the fictionalized version of how the bible came into being from the fictional book and movie “the DaVinci Code”. It's certainly not the truth of where the bible came from, nor how old it actually is. Nothing of the sort happened at the Council of Nicaea. What did happen there is well known and documented:

First Council of Nicaea
The agenda of the synod included:
1. The Arian question regarding the relationship between God the Father and Jesus; i.e. are the Father and Son one in divine purpose only or also one in being
2. The date of celebration of the Paschal/Easter observation
3. The Meletian schism
4. The validity of baptism by heretics
5. The status of the lapsed in the persecution under Licinius

And...

One of the projects undertaken by the Council was the creation of a Creed, a declaration and summary of the Christian faith.

Plus...

The biblical canon
A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the biblical canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council at all.

The bible itself was being used for hundreds of years longer then that, and most of the books of the bible today can be dated back to less then 200 years after the death of Christ, and possibly within the lifetime of some of his disciples or those who directly learned from them:

St Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons
Irenaeus, (2nd century AD – c. 202) was Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lyons, France). He was an early church father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a hearer of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of John the Evangelist.

While writing the work, Adversus Haereses , he qouted from almost all the books of the New Testament as it stands today:

Scholars contend that Irenaeus quotes from 21 of the 27 New Testament Texts:

Matthew (Book 3, Chapter 16)
Mark (Book 3, Chapter 10)
Luke (Book 3, Chapter 14)
John (Book 3, Chapter 11)
Acts of the Apostles (Book 3, Chapter 14)
Romans (Book 3, Chapter 16)
1 Corinthians (Book 1, Chapter 3)
2 Corinthians (Book 3, Chapter 7)
Galatians (Book 3, Chapter 22)
Ephesians (Book 5, Chapter 2)
Philippians (Book 4, Chapter 18)
Colossians (Book 1, Chapter 3)
1 Thessalonians (Book 5, Chapter 6)
2 Thessalonians (Book 5, Chapter 25)
1 Timothy (Book 1, Preface)
2 Timothy (Book 3, Chapter 14)
Titus (Book 3, Chapter 3)
1 Peter (Book 4, Chapter 9)
1 John (Book 3, Chapter 16)
2 John (Book 1, Chapter 16)
Revelation to John (Book 4, Chapter 20)

He may refer to Hebrews (Book 2, Chapter 30) and James (Book 4, Chapter 16) and maybe even 2 Peter (Book 5, Chapter 28) but does not cite Philemon, 3 John or Jude.

I don't see how being in a particular religious group doesn't cause division. Religion to me is a great divider among men. I am a good person, I do good things, I'm not perfect but I shouldn't be judge based on my lack of belief, instead I should be judge based on my actions and intent. Jesus, god, or whatever you want to label your deity has nothing to do with my actions. He has no control over the decisions I make because he simply doesn't exist. I believe in coming together and striving to be better, doing good things, and caring for other people; those aren't religious ideals. I know many christians and theologians try to attribute those as being only values a god fearing person could have, its simple not true. I know your post was well intentioned but it presupposes there is a god who is a benevolent force that guides men to do good things. However elegant that may seem, its not the case, religion and this 'benevolent' force has caused a great many tragedies. Acceptance of god will not make the world a better place or end suffering. Tell that to the muslims and jews battling it out in the 'holy land'. How about we take an example from the bible. God told the israelites to slaughter an entire village of people and not to leave anyone alive. That is unacceptable behavior. Religion isn't inherently good or bad. Its the leaders and followers of the religion you should hold accountable. God doesn't make people do anything, because god doesn't exist.


This was a reply to NotAnAspie

Originally posted by WhoKnows100

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
If a persons Faith cannot stand on truth...and this faith can only be sen and heard by those of some sort of special perception....then that Faith is of little worth. Split Infinity

That Faith is everything to those that have been called to repent of their life in the dark that is strangling this planet. It's everything when His Truth picks you up out of that darkness and places you into the Light of Christ Jesus, opening the Way to a personal relationship with the Creator that grows day by day.

Well...If this works for you...all the more power to you. But what I have issue with is a persons PRESUMPTION...that THEY KNOW what is really going on and if the rest of us just did...this...or believed...that...or allowed someone or thing into somewhere...well...THAT IS NOT RESPECTING ANOTHERS BELIEFS AND OPINIONS....that is...and I HATE THIS WORD AS IT IS the source of so much EVIL and ABUSE...that being....EVANGELIZING!

Be content with whatever peace you beliefs bring to you....just don't bing them MY WAY....as in my opinion...even though I am an Agnostic....and believe that what people think GOD is...is NOTHING LIKE THE REALITY....I believe I am much closer to the teaching of Jesus Christ then the Majority out there who profess to know this supposed Son or God in their Heart. Jesus said....If you don't believe in ME....believe in what I do or what my ACTIONS MEAN! THAT IS A BETTER WAY TO LOOK AT THINGS THAN...making a statement such as WE ALL AGREE....or....WE ALL KNOW THIS IS TRUE! Well...we DON'T ALL AGREE! And WE DON'T ALL THINK WHAT ONE PERSON SAID IS TRUE....IS NECESSARILY TH TRUTH! THAT is arrogance. Split Infinity