The Soldier, the Knocker, and the Burden of Permission

Hold on a minute, let me get this straight. You are comparing a soldier, a cattle knocker or hunters of tribes and the civilians giving permission, hence a burden on the soldier to defend the country right?
I'm curious when did this war time malaise start with the American soldier? While the US was massacring American Indians no one was feeling the resentment. When you were killing each other I'm sure it started to sink in. And this is in the 1700s, look at this timeline of all the wars the US has been a part of and you can see why. Take a break from war!
People on either side of the argument can learn a thing or two. Sure the Soldier-Hero side will say that they defend the US. Sure the Civilian-Peace lovers would not understand the necessity to be in so much conflict, all the time thought the short history of the US. The people who are the first to sign up and fight should at least take the time to understand what is going on first with this country they are defending. Nope they are the most unemployed, uneducated, indoctrinated and bored group of the whole population.
Now for this cattle knocker being knocked on, please there is a difference in killing animals who don't run away like in a real hunt. You know the kind of hunt where your adrenaline pumps and you stalk the prey and the ritual that is about. The cattle knocker is bored out of his skull doing his job and if you tell me that cattle knockers are commuting suicide, I can make a automated machine to slice the cow's head clean off tomorrow and replace that guy.
As for the general population, unless I see an advancing army threatening me directly then why would I not depend on the first line of defense, which is diplomacy. War is useless now that countries borders are set in stone and we have the UN (lol). The truth is that there will always be a Soldier-Hunter group in society that needs to learn a new way to express their overt necessity for violence. If you see the effects of war on your family or friends who served, DON'T go to war! Jesus the BURDEN of PERMISSION is a decision that the Soldier makes in his own head, suffer the consequences b**ches.

Originally posted by Emeraldous
Hold on a minute, let me get this straight. You are comparing a soldier, a cattle knocker or hunters of tribes and the civilians giving permission, hence a burden on the soldier to defend the country right?

I am comparing the way civilians treat Soldiers with how the slaughterhouse workers treat the Knocker. We give them permission to kill, and then we shun them for it. I am pointing out that our approach to killing is highly compartmentalized, and that the public wants it that way. I am saying that we have been doing that for a long time, and in most cultures the world over.

And I am, finally, saying it has to stop.

I'm curious when did this war time malaise start with the American soldier?

I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Certainly, I never implied that war begins with the Soldier.

Nope they are the most unemployed, uneducated, indoctrinated and bored group of the whole population.

Thank for serving as object example of precisely the kind of civilian who makes it so difficult for the guys to reintegrate. Your lack of sensitivity and your ignorance provide a teaching moment for the rest of us.

reply to post by Eidolon23


What's this we stuff? I didn't give no soldiers permission to go invade other countries, that is for sure. When you sign up to be the killing force for a corrupt government, you reap what you sow. I don't see any difference between volunteering to go fight for the empire, and selling your soul, or selling out your morals if you have any.

If I volunteered to go fight for my country, I would not expect anything from civilians once I got back.

That is the way it should be.

You sign up because you want to fight for your country, not because you expect accolades from civilians.

Originally posted by rockledr

There are several things that will help our returning servicemen reintegrate.

Thank you so much for laying all that out.

The thing with the book and the family reading it is now they know what happened, not everything but a lot of it. The ones I have talked to don't ask many questions, they just give encouragement. But if I want to talk about it with them I can, they already know. It is helping me to deal with it.

I feel so strongly how important it is for families to be there without being pushy on the one hand, or too shy to offer a listening ear on the other. Part of my reticence had always been that I felt I might be opening up wounds even mentioning it. So I lost my chance with my grandfather and father.

But with my uncle, we have very recently been able to talk about his experiences. He mentioned that he still gets triggered one day a couple of years back. I took his hand and said if he wanted to share anything, that I was there to listen. And he did, and it helped us both tremendously.

There's nothing my uncle could tell me that would make me love him any less.

If every Vets story was told to the public it would take the public on an emotional roller coaster, but it would do wonders for the vets.

I completely agree. I have been trying to think of practical ways to do just that.

When a Vet wants to talk we as a society need to listen, it will help both parties involved. All the Vet wants to do is feel like he is a part of society again.

You've thrown down some really strong solutions.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by Eidolon23

 

What's this we stuff? I didn't give no soldiers permission to go invade other countries, that is for sure. When you sign up to be the killing force for a corrupt government, you reap what you sow. I don't see any difference between volunteering to go fight for the empire, and selling your soul, or selling out your morals if you have any.

edit on Tue, 13 Mar 2012 07:23:16 -0500 by TKDRL because: (no reason given)

Consider for a moment that you do precisely that. Unless you refuse to pay taxes, unless you go without cheap (relatively) petroleum products, and unless you do everything within your civic capabilities to stop warfare; you are complicit.

We have to own it before we can change it.

Originally posted by The Sword
If I volunteered to go fight for my country, I would not expect anything from civilians once I got back.

That is the way it should be.

You sign up because you want to fight for your country, not because you expect accolades from civilians.

edit on 13-3-2012 by The Sword because: (no reason given)

Accolades? No. I think we covered that back there with the Triumphs essentially serving the same function as ritual shaming.

You may not expect a ticker-tape parade, but understanding and compassion are not too much to ask for.

reply to post by Eidolon23


Until people are torn away from their TV's through force, nothing will change, ever. People are too busy wasting their lives away, living through other people's fantasies on the TV, to pay attention to anything going on around them; let alone what is going on halfway around the world. They just don't care. Maybe if people would stop signing up to be eager cannon fodder for their wargames.... I seriously doubt our toughtalking "leaders" are gonna pick up a gun and go to war themself anytime soon.

Why anyone joins is beyond me. Going to work for a government that has a track record of sticking their noses where they don't belong, and sending soldiers to countries they have no business being in.... Not exactly smart.

reply to post by TKDRL


Vets' stories reaching the public: television can be a powerful tool. I would cite the Vietnam era again.

The millions protesting weren't riled up over a draft, or the illegitimacy of the war. Those reasons, while valid, were not the source of frothing blind ire. It was the images they saw on their televisions. Visions of horror.

On some level, they recognized their part in that horror, and they went apespit.

I bet you could institute a draft today, right now, and unless we take down the walls and make warfare more visible there wouldn't be much civilian blowback.

So, I would suggest an alternative approach. There are many ways to remove the blinders, and war footage has proven to be something that induces some ineffective and loony responses in the public. But for vets to be given a public platform to tell their stories?

That could work out pretty well, I think.

reply to post by Eidolon23


I know Iraq Veterans Against War(I think that is what they are called) tried exactly that. Didn't seem many people listened to them though. I am tired, my brain is mush, I can't remember the name of the video. I am sure someone knows the one I am talking about though.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by Eidolon23

 

Why anyone joins is beyond me. Going to work for a government that has a track record of sticking their noses where they don't belong, and sending soldiers to countries they have no business being in.... Not exactly smart.

edit on Tue, 13 Mar 2012 08:01:36 -0500 by TKDRL because: (no reason given)

There are many reasons. All of the Soldiers in my life have been whip smart. Many are drawn to the structure provided by the military. Many have service as a family tradition. Some want a way to pay for college. And most want to serve and protect.

Most are very young when they enlist, and do not know a illegitimate war from Adam. Few do at 18.

All of my buddies who served in Iraq and Afghanistan felt disillusioned and bitter when they realized what was really up. But, at the same time, they also felt that they had personally done everything in their power (particularly in Afghanistan) to improve life for the citizens.

reply to post by TKDRL


This is rough, but a lot more of this needs to be happening.



How much worse must that pain be, if you do feel that your cause is unjust? My heart just falls out for this man. I'm certain the majority of the audience feels the same.

reply to post by Eidolon23


I am 30, a few of my friends around my age joined up after high school. Only one of them adjusted well after coming home, he is in the bodyguard business now.

I reread my posts, I think I am coming acrossed as beligerent and combatative, not on purpose though. I was never really good at communicating through words, and being tired don't help lol.

The way the world seems to be going, it scares me what kind of world my girls might be living in when they grow up. And feeling helpless of changing it makes me angry.

reply to post by TKDRL


That is totally understandable. You have not come across as belligerent, and I think you have added some very constructive input. Thank you.

Originally posted by Eidolon23

Originally posted by Emeraldous
Hold on a minute, let me get this straight. You are comparing a soldier, a cattle knocker or hunters of tribes and the civilians giving permission, hence a burden on the soldier to defend the country right?

I am comparing the way civilians treat Soldiers with how the slaughterhouse workers treat the Knocker. We give them permission to kill, and then we shun them for it. I am pointing out that our approach to killing is highly compartmentalized, and that the public wants it that way. I am saying that we have been doing that for a long time, and in most cultures the world over.

And I am, finally, saying it has to stop.

I'm curious when did this war time malaise start with the American soldier?

I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Certainly, I never implied that war begins with the Soldier.

Nope they are the most unemployed, uneducated, indoctrinated and bored group of the whole population.

Thank for serving as object example of precisely the kind of civilian who makes it so difficult for the guys to reintegrate. Your lack of sensitivity and your ignorance provide a teaching moment for the rest of us.

Fine cherry pick my statements and bend them to your will, I don't care.
The old Roman idea of conquest, honor and accolade when returning home from war is over. Even then the common people saw it for what it was. The returning soldier seeking the justification for war time horror he/she needs when they get back is not there. Do you think the people of Vietnam have this problem? The anguish the soldier experiences is the mind trying to justify why, in the case of Vietnam, we are so against communism then and now we are more than friends. Or why places like Hamburger Hill happened, the basic concepts of war don't make sense.
Historically there have been three powers over the citizenship that have run their course and have yet to disappear or be replaced. The military class, the priest class and the political class have shown that they are more concerned about sustaining themselves and not their ideals. Very recently of course the banker class emerged but that broke already, all we have to do is realize it.

I don't want my posts to turn into something defending why people join. But not all of the Soldiers joined after 2001 some had been in for many years before that. If you asked 100 Soldiers why they joined you would get 50-75 different answers, if you really talked to them you would get the real reasons and those are not what you were told in the beginning. That is all of the defending I will do.

Back to the problems we have as a society. It has been demonstrated in this thread already one of the biggest problems we face. Society, just by living in this country you are a part of society, has this stigma attached to military service. Reference the I didn't give my permission statement. I haven't came up with a way to correct this.

One contributing factor to this stigma is the media. How many times have you seen a story covering the good we have done in Afghanistan? Not many is my guess. I can't speak for Iraq as I have neveer been there. In Afghanistan we spent way more time helping the local population than "fighting bad guys". We did spontaneous medical treatments for the children, handed out food, blankets, coats and shoes for the winter. Built numerous schools. But these stories are not told to the population here in the states. Sensationalism sells, so only the bad gets reported, reference the two latest main stories, the Korans and the murder.

Trying to get these stories out is a conundrum of sorts. The Vets are not willing to open up about these for the reasons stated previously. But in my recent experience when the stories come out and people see what actully goes on it does make a positive difference.

If we could get these stories out there some way it would help all involved, the Soldier is not looking for accolades, glory or thanks from anyone. They know what they did and whether they can be proud of it or not. I have spent a lot of time talking to people way smater than me about how we get away from this stigma and get the real stories out but we have no solutions yet. I will contribute more when I get the rest of my thoughts together on this.

reply to post by beezzer


Beezer I would agree with what you said with one exception. All Vets wear thier scars on the inside and some have them on the outside as well.

Originally posted by rockledr

One contributing factor to this stigma is the media. How many times have you seen a story covering the good we have done in Afghanistan? Not many is my guess. I can't speak for Iraq as I have neveer been there. In Afghanistan we spent way more time helping the local population than "fighting bad guys". We did spontaneous medical treatments for the children, handed out food, blankets, coats and shoes for the winter. Built numerous schools. But these stories are not told to the population here in the states. Sensationalism sells, so only the bad gets reported, reference the two latest main stories, the Korans and the murder.

Absolutely, this very much dovetails with the accounts I have heard from my friends. That there has been a strong focus on trying to stabilize and improve conditions for the civilian population in these areas. That the humanitarian work is emphasized as much as combat in one's daily duties.

And, yeah, we never hear about it. And when it is covered... Well, most of the news stories I have read are unjustly critical of measures being taken to build schools, create jobs, and strengthen local government.

Sensationalism might sell, but we are setting ourselves up for some very ugly conditions stateside when we indulge the media this way. We do need to hear about these atrocities, yes. But we need the proper context to understand them, and that can only come with more comprehensive coverage of the wider arena.

I think, ultimately, that the stigma proceeds from our deep revulsion toward bloodshed. It really is one of the most primary taboos. I can guarantee you, for instance, that if every man, woman and child had to kill their own animals for meat we'd have a lot more vegetarians. And a lot more well-adjusted meat lovers, for that matter.

reply to post by rockledr


Yes, even the ones who do not see "combat" end up with emotional scars. Most of the guys I know come back to a different kind of hell back home. Their wives are AWOL, there kids are running wild in the streets and their downrange pay is "missing" from the bank account.

I want to make it clear.....I am not blaming the wives. I am a wife of a soldier I know the wives side of the story, how hard it is on these women, many of them under equipped to handle affairs without their husbands, many of them too young to take on that much responsibility. They have my sympathy.....however, the reality is military life in general is a sacrifice and it is not for the faint of heart.

I do not drive around with a yellow ribbon and rose sticker that tells the world I am a "proud military wife" because I take no pride in the sacrifices I have made, I made them because I support my husband......I wish with all my might he had taken a civilian job.....but he refused and I love him enough to deal with it.

But some spouses no matter how much they love their sponsors can't handle the demands of service, so when guys(and girls) come back and their home life is turned upside down within a 12 month time period....is it any wonder these people have emotional issues?

I strongly advocate for spouses to take AFTB courses at the ACS, I strongly advocate for service members to encourage their spouses to engage in the community, there is help but the spouses have to reach out and take it, the soldiers have services too......they are not the best but anything is worth a try before things spiral way out of control......it is something I have seen too many times to count and it breaks my heart.

reply to post by Mijamija


I couldn't have said it better if I tried. The family we leave back home deals with way more than we do when deployed, the unkowing, and waiting to see if that knock will come at the door. If my wife and daughters weren't such strong people we probably wouldn't have made it and ended up as a statistic. Unfortunately the families sacrifices are seldom mentioned. I could only imagine what it is like being the spouse of a deployed service member. I don't think I could handle it. I salute you on the sacrifices you have made and for standing beside your husband.