Jerusalem- the whore of Babylon?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Um, when does dewey NOT go ballistic?

I don't go ballistic to support a cult.
If anything, I am against cultish beliefs, of any kind.
I no longer support a futurist view of Revelation and am instead taking a Preterist position that everything John saw that he wrote about happened in his lifetime.
The whore in that sort of scheme would be what was going on at the time Revelation was written, which was people perverting the freedom from the Old Testament Law, into liberty to "sin all you want".

Thank you for the respectful reply, and I hope you understand that what I said was tongue-in-cheek!

As to Preterism, I was under the impression that it is only one of three major schools of thought on the interpretation of the Revelation: Preterist, Historicist, and Futurist. Given the time periods implied in the prophecy, including the new Earth, new Jerusalem, etc, I adhere to the Historicist school. The human yearning for freedom from God's Law (doing your own thing or "sin all you want") was not only restricted to the time of the Apostle John! The letters to the seven churches also imply an historical progression.

I shall respect your views, however.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No it isn't and most people have corrected you in this thread.

Wrong. People posting there personal fanciful interpretations of scripture does not amount to correcting me.

"FANCIFUL INTERPRETATION"? There are only two figurative women in Revelation, the widow who gives birth to the man-child (Israel) and the whore of Babylon. There are ONLY two presented. And the "whore" specifically says "I'm NOT a widow."

That leaves one woman left for the "whore" to be.

Its funny that I'm the only one going by whats in the bible here.

You're not, you're cherry-picking verses to justify your hatred of Jews/Israel. That's racism, not honest scholarship! It's not comical, it's quite pathetic. Jews are humans too.

Turn to revelations 17:18 which deals with the "whore"...or the "woman" of revelations 17
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Earlier in the same chapter, the "whore" or "city" is depicted as being drunk with the blood of the holy people/saints.

I'm not turning to anything, I've stated numerous times, as well as others, that your interpretation is quite off. You can hate the Jews and Israel, but not me, even if they were my sworn enemies Christ taught to love and bless one's enemies.

And going by the bible, knows that only ONE city in all of the bible is accused of the same thing....and that is Jerusalem....as shown in Matthew 23:35.

If you look closely, they are not accused of the same thing. Jerusalem is accused of killing the prophets God sent to them, the whore is accused of having the blood of ALL the righteous on her head from the dawn of time till now. (Worldwide)

WHO was murdering the righteous for the odd 1,940+ years that Jerusalem had been in ruins?? 1 million Christians were murdered in one day at the demands of Pope Pious. Where was Jerusalem when these million righteous were being murdered?? A: In ruins.

Also, pay attention to the fact that the same language is used to describe BOTH the whore and Jerusalem.
Isaiah 47:7 / Revelation 18:7
Jeremiah 4:30-31 / Revelation 17:4

No, the "whore" is false worship, false religion, Idolatry. Jerusalem, like everyone else, has fornicated with that "whore", but Jerusalem is not that "whore" itself. That's mystery Babylon, false worship/idolatry. But what about all the OT and NT verses detailing the redemption of Israel/Jerusalem when the Messiah returns to rule the Earth in truth and righteousness?

So....give your personal interpretations a rest and stick with whats in the bible on this one.

Seems as though the only "personal interpretation" in this thread is yours. We Christians are in agreement that Jerusalem isn't the "whore" of Revelation and that your interpretation is quite off.

Ever noticed how Revelations 17 ends with the whore getting destroyed...and the next chapter is dedicated to Babylon's destruction?

Well, duuuuh! *facepalm* Haven't you been paying attention? The "whore" IS mystery Babylon!!

reply to post by Lazarus Short

The human yearning for freedom from God's Law (doing your own thing or "sin all you want") was not only restricted to the time of the Apostle John! The letters to the seven churches also imply an historical progression.

Yep, there is still the same problem or spirit today, not just in John's day and age. And the letter to the churches were for all of us to learn from. "He who has an ear.." (we all have ears) "what the Spirit says to the churches" (plural).

reply to post by Lazarus Short

As to Preterism, I was under the impression that it is only one of three major schools of thought on the interpretation of the Revelation: Preterist, Historicist, and Futurist.

You seem to have had some past experience with Seventh Day Adventism, but it is not always so clear to individuals of that denomination what all the appropriate labels are for their brand of eschatology. I would say it is all three of those, rolled together, that prophecy is not restricted in how many times it can be applied, so you can see a past, direct fulfillment, a future fulfillment in a not so literal way, and as a progression of events over the course of history.
So if I wanted to branch off on my own, I would already have all three of those interpretive methods understood, and I could choose to just go with one of those, of course if I did not care about remaining an "orthodox" SDA.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, we all have ears, but not everyone has the ability to understand what he/she is hearing. For that matter, I have found in my life that not everyone has the ability to see what they are looking at. Some people never "get" it. For instance, it is all too easy to miss the great love affair between God and his bride - the love, courtship, elopement, betrayal, rejection, divorce, and eventual reconciliation. I am presently writing a book on the subject, currently researching how God cast off Judah, after casting off Israel. It's not a pretty sight, but I read Hosea, and take heart.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yes, I was once a "card carrying" SDA member. I studied my way into that denomination, and then I studied my way back out. Now you note that some baggage remains. So be it.

Actually, I think your perception of my theo(ill)logical past speaks well of your breadth of knowledge of such things. My fez is off to you, sir!

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I'm not turning to anything, I've stated numerous times, as well as others, that your interpretation is quite off.

You dont even want to look up the verses that clearly identify Jerusalem as the whore and you want to comment on my "interpretation"?

Read the OP once again...

On one hand we have Jerusalem being charged with the blood of the saints. Matthew 23:35
On the other hand, we have Babylon being accused of the same exact thing. Revelations 18:24

Thats what the bible says...Deal with it.

The "whore" IS mystery Babylon!!

And the whore is described as a city. (revelations 17:18)
And babylon shares many parallels with Jerusalem.


Isaiah 47:7 = Jerusalem boasts and is warned of sudden destruction.
Revelation 18:7 = Babylon boasts and is warned of sudden destruction.

Jeremiah 4:30-31= Jerusalem described as being dressed in scarlet and her "lovers" seek to destroy her.
Revelations 17:16 = Babylon described as being dressed in scarlet and the horns destroy her.


The parallels between Babylon and Jerusalem are there in plain sight...doesn't matter if you think otherwise. I'll stick with the bible.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yes, we all have ears, but not everyone has the ability to understand what he/she is hearing. For that matter, I have found in my life that not everyone has the ability to see what they are looking at. Some people never "get" it. For instance, it is all too easy to miss the great love affair between God and his bride - the love, courtship, elopement, betrayal, rejection, divorce, and eventual reconciliation. I am presently writing a book on the subject, currently researching how God cast off Judah, after casting off Israel. It's not a pretty sight, but I read Hosea, and take heart.

Well, don't forget Amos 9 when you get to that book.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, it's all there in one short chapter...

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You dont even want to look up the verses that clearly identify Jerusalem as the whore and you want to comment on my "interpretation"?

No I don't, because the whore is Babylon. "Mystery Babylon" is any false religion/Idolatry. Look at the last verse in chapter 17, it tells you exactly who the whore is, Babylon, the "great city".

reply to post by NOTurTypical

the whore is Babylon. "Mystery Babylon" is any false religion/Idolatry.

Well, I'm not talking about "mystery babylon", so dont bring it up here.

Look at the last verse in chapter 17, it tells you exactly who the whore is, Babylon, the "great city".

This is exactly what I said in an an earlier post. Are you even reading to the posts you are replying to?

The fact that the whore is Babylon was implied in the OP itself. I say in the very first line "...and Babylon, symbolized as the "whore"....

And the main subject matter of this thread is that "Babylon" is Jerusalem. In case you missed it when I posted the evidence a few times, here it is again.


Matthew 23:35 = Jerusalem being charged with the blood of the saints.
Revelations 18:24 = Babylon being charged with the blood of the saints.

Isaiah 47:7 = Jerusalem boasts and is warned of sudden destruction.
Revelation 18:7 = Babylon boasts and is warned of sudden destruction.

Jeremiah 4:30-31= Jerusalem described as being dressed in scarlet and her "lovers" seek to destroy her. Revelations 17:16 = Babylon described as being dressed in scarlet and the horns destroy her.



To summarize it for you.... I am talking about the whore... who is "the city"... Babylon...being described in the same way as Jerusalem. Proof shown above.

In other words...Jerusalem = the great city = Babylon = the whore.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

To summarize it for you.... I am talking about the whore... who is "the city"... Babylon...being described in the same way as Jerusalem. Proof shown above.

So what's the issue here if we both agree that the whore of Revelation 17 is the "great city" Babylon? And "mystery Babylon" is important because the system is what God is going to destroy, not just the literal city on the banks of the Euphrates river. "Mystery Babylon" is the whore who has all the blood of the saints and the righteous on her head. There have been big swaths of human history on Earth here when both literal Babylon and Jerusalem have been in ruins and uninhabited.

Example: If "Jerusalem' is the whore and "all the blood of the saints" is upon her head then who is responsible for killing the saints and the righteous for 1,900 some years that Jerusalem was in ruins? On who's hands is responsible for the blood shed of the prophets, saints, and righteous during the middle-ages?

"Mystery Babylon" is any false pagan or idolatrous worship or religion, any philosophy against God. Any false religious system.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

On one hand we have Jerusalem being charged with the blood of the saints. Matthew 23:35
On the other hand, we have Babylon being accused of the same exact thing. Revelations 18:24

Thats what the bible says...Deal with it.

So what? We seem to be in agreement that Israel is the head of the viper here, and it is Israel that whores herself out to America, and other Nations. As for the bloody hands, all of Christendom has a hand in that one, whether you would admit it or not. The book of Matthew was authored by an unknown author, some have said a woman wrote the Gospels, and some say the entire New Testament was written by a Roman Family.
John of Patmos lived on an island--Patmos, to be specific--that is known for having lots of wild mushrooms which have, of course, powerful hallucinogenic properties. Some scholars belief John ate these mushrooms while exiled on the island. Some scholars have theorized that hallucinogenic mushrooms may have had a hand in his visions and subsequent writings, yes. Given the nature of his writings, it's not that hard to fathom.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

So what's the issue here if we both agree that the whore of Revelation 17 is the "great city" Babylon?

Yes, we are talking about the "great city".
My point is that the great city, Babylon is none other than Jerusalem, as shown by the Bible verses I posted earlier.

If "Jerusalem' is the whore and "all the blood of the saints" is upon her head then who is responsible for killing the saints and the righteous for 1,900 some years that Jerusalem was in ruins? On who's hands is responsible for the blood shed of the prophets, saints, and righteous during the middle-ages?

The case for Jerusalem having the righteous blood of the saints is strong because the charge is made by Jesus himself.

And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth,
- Matthew 23:35


compare that to Revelations 18:24

You know, if the scripture simply revealed Rome or somebody else as the whore, I would have no choice but to accept it. But instead, its Jerusalem that's shown to be the whore/Babylon.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You know, if the scripture simply revealed Rome or somebody else as the whore, I would have no choice but to accept it. But instead, its Jerusalem that's shown to be the whore/Babylon.

No it isn't! The whore is that "great city" Babylon, the literal city on the banks of the Euphrates river. "Mystery Babylon" is the false religious system that emerged from literal Babylon and went out throughout the entire world. The last verse in Revelation tells you exactly who the "whore" is.

That "great city" Babylon. And we are still waiting for the literal Babylon to be destroyed as the Bible declared. People are still living there today, Saddam used over a million of the bricks of ancient Babylon to rebuild the city.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The whore is that "great city" Babylon, the literal city on the banks of the Euphrates river.

The whore/great city's biggest sin was to have the blood of saints.

The literal Babylon, though unholy, was not charged with the blood of the saints. Jerusalem was.
Also there are plenty of other parallels between the whore/great city and Jerusalem.

Notice the great city / whore AND Jerusalem are both described as having the blood of the saints, boastful, glamorous and headed for destruction. Almost as if the writer of revelations copied what was already written about Jerusalem.

Also, Jesus himself was not too fond of Jerusalem... "for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!"

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by POPUP2000

 

Did you read the quotes in green and orange in the OP? They demonstrate some of the many parallels between Jerusalem and Babylon.

Here's a little tutoring on prophetic language.

Babylon=another way to God, ungodly religion, religion involved in getting back to God on man;s terms not God's terms.

Tower of Bab'El= Bab'El means "Gateway to God" or another way to God.

Egypt=Babylon. Egypt has similar meaning in prophetic language as Babylon.

Mountains/hills= nations or great cities/capitols/governments

City that sits on 7 hills or mountains=Great city or Capitol given power or authority over a league of 7 great nations.

Winds=wars
Trees=individual people
Seas/rivers=multitudes of people
Beasts=Empires
Women=religions, so Whore of Babylon=religion representing another way to God other than the official one he sanctions, Woman that hopped in the sack and began fornicating with paganism the minute her husband turned his back.
Locusts= godly doctrines that plague the unrighteous and trouble them
Woman with wings of an eagle= religion of purity, of God, faithful to her husband and master (Yeshua)
Woman with wings of a stork= religion that is impure, of Satan, unfaithful to her husband/master (Yeshua)

Take Revelation 14:4

These are they which were NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb

Not defiled with WOMEN for they are VIRGINS, does not mean they are men who have never had sex with women and are virgin.

It means men who have never been defiled by ungodly religions, they remain untainted and true to the Lamb of God. They are the firstfruits, they have been glorified by God and given bodies like the angels. They are the first to be changed from men into Sons of God after Yeshua.

This appears to be correct.

And Babylon is (was) a SYSTEM, or a way of practice and belief, which involves the magic arts, blood magic, sacrificial rites, etc. doesn't matter if it was practiced in the bowel's of the Vatican in Rome or on the Queen's estate (not a widow..), it's a methodology which attempts to bracket God and harness the power of God, and it's an absolute abomination against both God and man - and when this sytem has been traced to its root and source, under the watchful eye of God and all of heaven (wherever it's been practiced), then down it goes, up in smoke, and it's smoke rises forever and ever, whereby any attempt to continue in those practices condemns the practitioner(s) to the wrath of God, so it becomes a "toolshed" behind a locked door, or else..!

But for the record, it's my understanding that 7 hills surrounds Rome.

But even if the Vatican, and the Pope were the keepers of the ancient mysteries of Babylon, doesn't mean that the people and the institution of the Church cannot learn a valuable lesson and leave a certain thing well enough alone. Once burnt twice shy as they say.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Its obvious that you dont want to read the biblical parallels between Jerusalem and the whore/city called Babylon.


Matthew 23:35 = Jerusalem being charged with the blood of the saints.
Revelations 18:24 = Babylon being charged with the blood of the saints.

Isaiah 47:7 = Jerusalem boasts and is warned of sudden destruction.
Revelation 18:7 = Babylon boasts and is warned of sudden destruction.

Jeremiah 4:30-31= Jerusalem described as being dressed in scarlet and her "lovers" seek to destroy her.
Revelations 17:16 = Babylon described as being dressed in scarlet and the horns destroy her.


Address that first. You will notice that other than Jerusalem, no other city is described as sharing so many parallels with Babylon. The bible itself identifies Babylon as Jerusalem.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Like I said, Babylon is not an individual city, and from what I know and experienced, it was a system of "power" projection, not just here on earth, from somewhere else as well, and in fact it was through colusion between both centers that made it powerful as a projection of "God", but it was false, and was founded on disgusting magical practices and blood sacrifice. The synagog of Satan also seems to point to something Israeli or out of Jerusalem, but again doesn't neccessarily refer to a "place".

Evil is systemic, not based on a specific people, or place.

Babylon is the same way, although, that siad, I strongly suspect that somewhere "out there", a two horned "ram" was sacrificed and perhaps even a whole planetary civilization, imploded, yeah you heard me right.

The good news is this

Babylon HAS fallen!

It's done, it happened.