America there is no freedom

reply to post by harvib


Honestly...I have travelled to over 22 countries now, including the Middle East.

Some of the most wonderful people on the planet.

But the governments that many middle eastern countries suffer under?

The difference between the USA and most of the Middle east is that vocal criticism of our government is at the very core of our government. Our founding fathers made sure of it. Vocal criticism of the government in Iran will get you arrested and tortured.

That is a FUNDEMENTAL difference.

That is the core of FREEDOM.

And that means that while we might suffer from insults to freedom in the USA, we also have the freedom to voice dissent, to challenge our government daily in protests, our national discourse and the courts.

Any challenge to the government in Iran is met with arrest and torture.

So while we may not have perfected "Freedom" in the USA, our founding fathers made sure we, the people would always have the means to pursue that etheral 'perfect" freedom.

The first and most sacred document our government created over 200 years ago enshrines that right of the people.

In Iran...you can be arrested, beaten or killed for exercising that same freedom.

Perfect? Nope...no one has claimed that, but we have the means to pursue that perfection through debate and loud criticism of our government and have been doing so for a couple centuries.

Night and Day compared to Iran.

Strange how folks seem blind to that distinction.

reply to post by hmdphantom


Hello again, Hmdphantom.

I noticed in your first couple of posts a decided tendency to equate or confuse democracy for freedom. They aren't the same.

Democracy is mob rule. In democracy, 51 percent of a people think they have the right to dictate rights to the other 49 percent. They think that THEY give rights. Democracy is the antithesis of freedom. It facilitates theocracies, and what you have termed "media-ocracy" (nice word, by the way). It facilitates control, and is nothing more than an attempt to negate freedom. All a ruling body has to do in a democracy is manipulate public opinion, and the masses do the rest to themselves based upon that skewed opinion provided by the ruling class.

Freedom, on the other hand, is the realization that NO mob, NO ruling class, NO media outlet, NO document, NO mullah or overseer or ruler of any sort bestows or defines the rights you have, and being willing to act accordingly.

I for one have no desire at all to give freedom or democracy either one to any other people. Giving it to them is not only counter-productive, it is impossible. They must take it for themselves, exercise their own freedom. NO one else can do it for them, or give it to them. they must seize it for themselves, or they will NEVER have it. Frankly, it's not my problem to force any one else into a mode of freedom. My problem is solely to keep them from encroaching on mine. How they live their own lives isn't my concern until they try to encroach upon mine.

"Freedom" exists every where, in every place, in every time. All one has to do is seize it and claim it for his own, and that goes for Iran, the US, the UK, Portugal, The Xingu River Basin, and every where else on Earth, and in the Universe.

If one fails to claim it, it doesn't just go away - it's still there, but one has built his own cage to insulate him from it.

reply to post by theBigToe


Thanks for checking that out. If Ats is available in Iran, while Youtube, facebook, twitter etc. get firewalled on a regular basis, then I have to assume it is not on the Supreme Councils radar yet, or they feel some of the Anti-israel and anti-US gov threads appeal to thier propagandist aims.

As far as "far left libs"...I have been called by that name once or twice

You don't need to lean right to be patriotic.

I have a deep and patriotic love of my country. I have ancestors that fought on both sides of the civil war, an ancestor with my given name that fought in the revolutionary war, I have a brother that just returned from 3 tours in Afghanistan and before that 1 tour in Iraq. I study history and world affairs when time affords, I have travelled a lot.

I love this country, I am proud of this country....and I criticize our imperfect gov, it's policies, it's laws and it's leaders often. I consider it my patriotic duty to regularly excersise that freedom

Otherwise...my ability to regularly debate politics and challenge our government feeds my patriotism.

Originally posted by Indigo5
reply to post by theBigToe

 

Thanks for checking that out. If Ats is available in Iran, while Youtube, facebook, twitter etc. get firewalled on a regular basis, then I have to assume it is not on the Supreme Councils radar yet, or they feel some of the Anti-israel and anti-US gov threads appeal to thier propagandist aims.

As far as "far left libs"...I have been called by that name once or twice

You don't need to lean right to be patriotic.

I have a deep and patriotic love of my country. I have ancestors that fought on both sides of the civil war, ancestors with my given name that fought in the revolutionary war, I have a brother that just returned from 3 tours in Afghanistan and before that one in Iraq. I study history and world affairs when time affords, I have travelled a lot.

I love this country, I am proud of this country....and I criticize our imperfect gov, it's policies, it's laws and it's leaders often. I consider it my patriotic duty to regularly excersise that freedom

Otherwise...my ability to regularly debate politics and challenge our government feeds my patriotism.

Im definitely not on the right haha I think far anything is equally naive and stupid. I am a center-left independent. People need to be flexible in their political views because the political realm is always changing and one needs to be adapting to his environment. A far anything is a closed mind, and I dont want anything to do with a leftists closed mind or a rightists closed mind. I like it in the middle.

I am very strongly in support of things like the 2nd amendment, fiscal conservatism, and when necessary, military intervention in unstable regions around the world. I am also however, strongly in support of things like the first amendment, and that no religion should have the right to trump anothers freedom, and I definitely am not in favor of segregating citizens based on sexual orientation, which is what those on the far right do on a regular basis. Without evidence to support your beliefs, nobody has any reason to take them serious. They can keep them out of my laws and go believe in them on their own. Far rightys are also in strong support of propping up the upper class and screwing over the lower class, and at the same time, far leftys want anarchy except when theyre getting government handouts.

reply to post by hmdphantom


Go spend a week or two in Uganda and come back here crying about our lack of freedoms.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by hmdphantom

 

Go spend a week or two in Uganda and come back here crying about our lack of freedoms.

lol He doesnt have to - he lives in Iran.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

So you don't know about democracy (majorities right)

or

maybe you like to see the picture like you used to see.

Majorities are loud

but

simply being loud does not make them right.

Originally posted by Ixtab
reply to post by beezzer

 

Well im not too sure about that, especialy after the NDAA Martial Law.

Have they got tanks parked in your intersections yet?

What?

NO?

How 'bout that...

But my point is, I do not believe it too much to ask that people here can have a rational discussion without the interjection of contradictory none sense about mythological beings thanks very much.

edit on 16-2-2012 by Ixtab because: (no reason given)

It appears that his point is that people here can still say any damned thing they want, regardless of what you consider to be contradictory, nonsense, or mythology.

How's that curtailment of freedom of speech coming along in your neighborhood?

Hi hmdphantom. No matter what you're motive is for posting what you do it's still nice to meet you. I like to understand others ways of life and will try to stay civilized no matter how much my views differ. Our country is no where near perfect and we have mostly forgotten how it was to be poor and hungry. Lots of us here in this country are good people though and I'm sure it's that way in you're country too.

I sometimes like to talk to those telemarketers from India, I ask them how the weather is there and if there is anything going on. They try to disquise their voice initially but it goes back to normal after a while. I told one that I don't mind getting a first hand weather report occasionally. They quit calling now, I guess they've figured out that I'm not buying anything.

freedom is of the mind. to be free of the fear of death, then what can they do?

America is STILL providing its citizens more freedom and financial opportunities, than any other country on the planet. I'm grateful that i had won in the green card lottery so i can actually live here in the US.
Some people just don't have ideas how bad it is in other countries placed in eastern Europe,Africa or in southeast Asia.
The TSA, IRS, DEA, ATF or DHS are pain the ass, but in other countries in the world there are the same equivalents of these agencies. Basically most of the world is f*cked up, but in the end the USA is best, when you have to choose among the all around world shi*hole.

reply to post by theBigToe


The middle is a good place to be, you must have a strong rudder to hold the course in our present political climate of extremes. I likely lean just slightly left of you (am for the 2nd amendment and fiscal conservatism - conservatives before the neo-cons and evangelicals took over) but am often cast far left as I find myself instinctually battling contemporary far right BS.

On the upside...it's the middle moderates like yourself that usually decide elections after the 45% left and the 45% right have thier vote...so you got that going for you

reply to post by theBigToe


Then why is someone in Iran commenting on American freedoms?

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by theBigToe

 

Then why is someone in Iran commenting on American freedoms?

Because a war is looming and hes afraid Khamenei is going to kill Iranians opposed to his regime?

Originally posted by theBigToe

You cant be posting from Iran - it would be censored. I call shenanigans.

And I will admit that I am just going out on a leap here right now and calling you out as a fraud because I dont know for certain that this exact website is censored in Iran, but youtube certainly is, and I would assume any forums is too. Its 6:06pm here in NY now and 3:06am in Tehran now. My friends usually start coming online around 1-2am Eastern time so I will give them ATS web URL and see if they can access the website. They live in Tehran and I can talk to them through STEAM - which is a gaming client.

I will be back with their response later.

edit on 16-2-2012 by theBigToe because: (no reason given)

Hmdphantom IS posting from Iran. He can access any old web site he likes.

Think deeply on that.

R.H.I.P.

Alternatively, Tor punches through even the Great Firewall of China. However, if he were using Tor, I would expect less adherence to the Party Line. Not an impossibility, but food for thought.

Originally posted by theBigToe

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by theBigToe

 

Then why is someone in Iran commenting on American freedoms?

Because a war is looming and hes afraid Khamenei is going to kill Iranians opposed to his regime?

No...he is ok with that..he described the crackdown, arrest and beatings of protestors there as the governments right to protect the "majority" and said the protestors "got what they deserved." and that they had been manipulated by Western Media..

Essentially the party line.

I suspect he is paid poster for the Iranian Gov.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

But this was just a media game manipulating people inside Iran

God blessed Western Farsi media channels were just claiming that there has been a fraud in the election (mercenaries inside Iran were helping them) , some people who were manipulated got emotional and then they got what they deserved

Originally posted by harvib
You have cited several examples of the Iranian Governments brutalities but seem oblivious that for every example you have provided their is an equally severe and brutal rebuttal that happened in the US.

You will have to provide evidence of that. Please show us how the US Government has morals police that roam around beating and jailing people who aren't dressed like they like or who cut their beards not in the 'correct' way. Please show me how children who play with squirt guns get arrested and spend days in jail because squirt guns are too provocative and encourage the different sexes to play together. Please show me how people are forced by the government ... upon pain of death ... to convert from one religion to another. Please show me how our government hangs homosexuals simply because they are homosexual. etc etc

And I don't mean drag up something from 200 years ago ... I mean TODAY.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by theBigToe

You cant be posting from Iran - it would be censored. I call shenanigans.

And I will admit that I am just going out on a leap here right now and calling you out as a fraud because I dont know for certain that this exact website is censored in Iran, but youtube certainly is, and I would assume any forums is too. Its 6:06pm here in NY now and 3:06am in Tehran now. My friends usually start coming online around 1-2am Eastern time so I will give them ATS web URL and see if they can access the website. They live in Tehran and I can talk to them through STEAM - which is a gaming client.

I will be back with their response later.

edit on 16-2-2012 by theBigToe because: (no reason given)

Hmdphantom IS posting from Iran. He can access any old web site he likes.

Think deeply on that.

R.H.I.P.

Alternatively, Tor punches through even the Great Firewall of China. However, if he were using Tor, I would expect less adherence to the Party Line. Not an impossibility, but food for thought.

Read future posts.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
Then why is someone in Iran commenting on American freedoms?

Because he's an iranian government propagandist agent. Iran has a tight grip on the internet. Iran doesn't even allow the people facebook or twitter. It sure in heck won't allow the average Iranian people to come here to ATS.

I look forward to the information TheBigToe will have later.

Hey guys - I posted a few posts after my initial one. lol. I think everybody has overlooked them

Originally posted by theBigToe
Apparently you can access this website from Iran.

But that doesnt mean you arent still intimidated by Khamenei's regime into not criticizing it in the slightest if you are posting from Iran.

edit on 17-2-2012 by theBigToe because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by theBigToe
reply to post by Indigo5

 

They can access ATS in Iran (and my friends dont have any kind of clearance from the Supreme Leader.) They both live in Tehran.

I checked with my friends and both of them said theyre able to with no problem. They cant see certain things though like youtube video embeds. Its weird that this site wouldnt be censored though, I will admit. Perhaps Ayatollah Khamenei and his thugs think this site is doing Iran more good then bad.

Wouldnt surprise me thanks to so many far left libs on here.