Ron Paul Is Secretly Taking Over The GOP — And It's Driving People Insane

reply to post by DrEugeneFixer


You can't be serious...

it is documented and a matter of historical fact....

for the love of history...please stop propagating BS as to why there was a war...that helps no one in the grand scheme of historical documentation

reply to post by Monts


Ron Paul is too old and too naive about Iran.

He is right about the Federal Reserve but that's about it.

reply to post by jrod


reply to post by Damrod


I'm quite serious, my friends, that is why my post contained a link to the four 'declarations of causes' that confederate state governments listed explaining in no uncertain terms why they attempted to secede.

Georgia

For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.

second sentence!

Mississippi:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery

second sentence.

South Carolina

. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Towards the end, but slavery is the only issue mentioned.

Texas

She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.
.
.
.
We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

Texas also mentions the Apaches, but overwhelmingly, this document about slavery.

Source: Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

Originally posted by jrod
When the Emancipation Proclamation was issued it didn't free a single man.

But by the end of the war, It freed all the slaves in the remaining confederacy outside of union control at the time of the signing. Of course there can be a delay between the signing of an order and its just enforcement.

Care to provide any counterevidence from documents published before the civil war? Until you do, of course, we have nothing to argue about.

Back to the thread topic. As I have documented here, Ron Paul is a liar and a falsifier of history. He does so not primarily out of ignorance, but out of his desire to pander to ignorance and prejudice in the electorate. For this reason, he is not fit to hold the office of President of the United States. Maybe he can be president of Texas when they secede.

All candidates aside, how many agree that when it comes to government, be it local or national, money should not be a factor period. Nobody with total asset values of more than 100,000 should ever be allowed to run for public office! Moreover, should their total assets increase by 1/2 or more, should be made to step down. Classes are BS! As long as there is big money the ( not so well off) or middle down will never get a fair shake!

One other fix for government would be, execution for any law maker or enforcer who breaks the law! That should keep the weasels out of the hen house!

reply to post by DrEugeneFixer


In your supplied video Paul prefaces his narrative of the Civil War by acknowledging slavery was a big issue concerning it. He goes on to say that slavery was not the only issue but the one that drew attention away from other matters. He then goes on to describe the bigger picture, i.e., Hamiltonian vs Jeffersonian models of government - centralized federal powers vs states. There was no dispute that the Civil War concerned slavery but that it was not the only matter concerned. It was Lincoln and the Civil War that locked-in the expansion of federal powers we have been experiencing since.

Some folks have conveniently put aside the matter of a growing federal power until it has now become a troublesome issue. It is the matter that most importantly needs to be addressed at this time. The slavery issue has been resolved now for some time and perhaps does not merit extensive discussion at present.

Many of you Non-Pauls perhaps fail to look at the larger and more timely picture of what is going on in the US, things we should be addressing. That really is not your fault as you likely look to the MSM for your information and only concern yourself to matters within its narrow view. You see what you are told to look at.

Who do you advocate as being the best person to have in the Oval Office and what reasons do you offer?

You are like so many others that come to these forums and can only speak about Ron Paul. Many people consider him a longshot for making it to Pennsylvania Avenue and we owe it to ourselves and our nation to not narrow our focus only on this man. The majority here consider him our best solution for addressing our current ills. If you believe there is a much better choice is it not in all of our interests to be highlighting them? And you can speak of no one other than Paul though in a negative context. I don't know that Ron Paul has taken over the GOP but he does dominate the discussions. Is it driving you insane the reason that you need to come here to talk about him?

Please offer us something constructive.

So tired of arguing with people who do no research and have to be spoon fed all the facts.

Half of us are idiots. The only question is, which half.

Go Ron Paul!

reply to post by DrEugeneFixer


Yes, of course- slavery was an important reason why the civil war happened- Ron Pauls's point is that it wasn't the only reason, and that those other important reasons get overshadowed by the issue of slavery.

If all wars were to start because of one issue that ticked people off, then not only would there have been more wars than could be conceived- but about 4 of my university history classes could have been taught in about 2 lectures.

Wars are complicated, and rarely- if ever- do they occur because of 1 issue.

Not only that, but I fail to see how even if your arguments were valid, that they would have any relevance at all for an election occurring 150 years after the civil war.

no, it;s making the democrats jump for joy !

obama will demolish an ayn rand libertarian pretending to be a protect the rich republican

he'll win by 20 pts

reply to post by Erongaricuaro


reply to post by Monts


Guys, clearly at 1:15 Paul says "that(slavery) really wasn't the issue of why the war was fought..." He's telling us in no uncertain terms that in his estimation that slavery was not the overwhelming and defining issue that prompted the civil war. Stop denying what he said.

All this crap that ensues about Jeffersonian vs. Hamiltonian government is bull# invented well after the fact by apologists for the southern cause. The notion that the confederacy was a bastion of small government and libertarianism is a farce. I've demonstrated by quotations from original documents that according to the confederate states themselves the single defining issue of the conflict was slavery. All these issues about tariffs and what have you had been present since the beginning of the republic, and had always been resolved by compromise or other means. The southern states seceded upon the election of Lincoln, before he even took office; as the Declarations of Causes note, this was the first time that a frankly anti-slavery party had ever taken control of the white house. There was no provocation by Lincoln, save his record on the slavery question, which was that it should not be extended to the western territories.

His line about Lincoln and the Republicans using the slavery issue to whip up passions of the anti-slavery north, in order to foment a war is the exact opposite of the truth.

Ron Paul is lying and pandering to neo-confederates and racists in front of a confederate flag in the year 2003.

Face facts: your candidate is among the most cynical and unethical to have stood for office. Ron Paul knows better than all of this. He's pandering to the prejudice and stupidity of his audience like the demagogue he is. He's a disgrace.

Originally posted by Monts
reply to post by DrEugeneFixer
Not only that, but I fail to see how even if your arguments were valid, that they would have any relevance at all for an election occurring 150 years after the civil war.

My whole discussion of the civil war was only in response to your asking where Paul had ever falsified history.

I've shown a good example, and provided links and quotations to back up my assertion that in fact Ron Paul falsified history.

It's relevant because the man is a deceptive paderer to the worst bigots in our country, men like Ron Paul supporters Don Black and David Duke, from whom he accepts aid and money. This type of racist divisiveness will only harm our nation, and has no place in the oval office.

reply to post by DrEugeneFixer


Your grade-school understanding of history fails you.

So by continuing to blather on about Paul and offer no alternative candidate we can assume you are an anarchist? And that Ron Paul is driving you insane. The old man is really getting to you.

Thanks for keeping Dr. Ron Paul in the spotlight.

reply to post by DrEugeneFixer


He did not falsify history, he spoke accurately and dead on. The civil war was not spawned over slavery...slavery became an issue later...actually much later. This is a fact...I'm sorry that perhaps you were not taught the truth growing up but this is the truth...we re-write the halls of history in this country to build saints and sinners and the truth is always somewhere in between...

I appreciate the fervor that some people speak with and I appreciate the idealism that you wish to paint history with...but this is not the case at all. Slavery became an issue AFTER the war was already underway...I don't know how to make this more clear to you...you really need to do some research and understand the environment of the times...Lincoln was not a fool, but he was not the saint you seemingly wish to portray him as...

Again...I like Dr. Ron Paul...he is the seemingly most level headed of all the candidates so far...I do not agree with everything the man has to say but that is OK...he has a solid position and I appreciate his point of view...I agree that... government is too big and it should be trimmed down and the states empowered...this makes total sense to me....the fact that we have so many departments covering the same things is absolute chaos and not functionally appropriate...this is a great point....

anywho....I think he has a good point...even though I don't agree with him on every issue...

But that is just my opinion...

WWII with Japan was about oil.

We trapped them in a corner and they had no choice but to attack us.

We cut off their oil.

But who knows that? All products of public education.

Most of the facts I know were not learned in school. People, do your own research rather than just shooting from the hip. Be certain of your facts before you jump in the fray.

And always keep in mind, what they told you in school, may not be the truth...

Originally posted by kawika
WWII with Japan was about oil.

We trapped them in a corner and they had no choice but to attack us.

We cut off their oil.

But who knows that? All products of public education.

Most of the facts I know were not learned in school. People, do your own research rather than just shooting from the hip. Be certain of your facts before you jump in the fray.

edit on 18-2-2012 by kawika because: corectolated spel'n err

All true.

When you go to the Arizona Memorial on Oahu, there is a short film that reveals we

cut off oil to Japan.

BTW, the Great Depression ended when WW 2 started.

Suddenly, everyone had a job.

Originally posted by kawika
WWII with Japan was about oil.

We trapped them in a corner and they had no choice but to attack us.

We cut off their oil.

But who knows that? All products of public education.

Most of the facts I know were not learned in school. People, do your own research rather than just shooting from the hip. Be certain of your facts before you jump in the fray.

And always keep in mind, what they told you in school, may not be the truth...

edit on 18-2-2012 by kawika because: corectolated spel'n err

edit on 18-2-2012 by kawika because: add text

They had every choice in the world.

They could have used diplomacy, the same word all the US hating losers use to say what the US should do in every situation.

Yes, diplomacy, Japan should have used diplomacy. If that failed they should have tried more diplomacy.

reply to post by Erongaricuaro


reply to post by Damrod


There's really no argument coming from your side except to state over and over that I'm wrong and Dr. Paul was telling the truth.

Well in a situation like this you should put up or shut up.

We want evidence and arguments, not mere assertions of your own rightness and that of Dr. Paul. So far, no-one on the other side of this discussion has cited a single fact or historical document, while I have cited several to justify my position. I'm not the one who looks to be ignorant of history! Intelligent participation on a message board requires more than mere repetitious assertion.

I maintain that Dr. Paul is pandering to ignoramuses and bigots with his revisionist (false) rewriting of the civil war. He is a disgrace to his office as a Representative from Texas.

Originally posted by Damrod
The civil war was not spawned over slavery...slavery became an issue later...actually much later. This is a fact...

No, that is a simple lie, and I have already proven so in my previous posts. Please read them. If you want to dispute my evidence and arguments, please provide some evidence and arguments of your own.

Originally posted by DrEugeneFixer

I maintain that Dr. Paul is pandering to ignoramuses and bigots with his revisionist (false) rewriting of the civil war. He is a disgrace to his office as a Representative from Texas.

And I maintain you have a fervent fixation on Dr. Paul. Were you just drawn to this thread by its title? You seem to be making the OP's point quite emphatically. Love him or hate him, there appears to be scarce middle-ground.

We can find shortcomings in any of the hopefuls in this race, they're all humans and not gods. You maintain your focus on Paul however. He seems to have you quite shook. Is it that the other contenders' flaws are just much more apparent?

You really have little constructive to add to this thread other than keeping the spotlight on Ron Paul. Despite your protests and going through the motions you are only succeding in demonstrating your own limited knowledge and understanding, as well as reiterating this thread's title with emphasis.

Originally posted by DrEugeneFixer

Originally posted by Damrod
The civil war was not spawned over slavery...slavery became an issue later...actually much later. This is a fact...

No, that is a simple lie, and I have already proven so in my previous posts. Please read them. If you want to dispute my evidence and arguments, please provide some evidence and arguments of your own.

You might do well to start another thread in the appropriate forum if you wish to pursue a more in-debth discussion of the Civil War, this is not really the place for it. It should be obvious to anyone with more than a cursory knowledge of American history that there was more than merely the matter of slavery involved. There vast volumes written about this.

Yor attempts to derail the thread merely punctuate this thread's title - "...And It's Driving People Insane(!)"