Why do YOU love Israel?

If America is Israel's ally, then why does America sell weapons to Israel's enemies? Picture the following scenario. Frank says he is Jim's friend. Bill is Jim's enemy. Bill tells Frank that he would like to shoot Jim. Frank gives Bill a gun. Now...what does that say about the "friendship" between Frank and Jim?

The same can be said about he relationship between the American government and Israel. While there are many American citizens who do love Israel, the American government does not. Actions speak louder than words. If the words to not match the actions, then the words are the words of hypocrisy.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


I don't love Israel. I do love every human being living there though, including those doing things I consider to be rooted in evil.

It's really a quagmire when you think of it, because any of my reasons for being against their policies and actions get construed into being racist or antisemitic. Beyond that, my support of the people of Gaza gets twisted into me supporting terrorism.

Until people are able and willing to look objectively at the situation, Israel will continue to drive US foreign policy.

Now, you've got to stop and ask yourself, with the history provided, why is the Us allowing this? Why is the US allowing Israel to tarnish it's image abroad and bring an entire generation of middle easterners over to hating the west? What EXACTLY does Israel hold over the US government?

Is it 911? Is it the fact that 911 was a joint mossad / cia operation? Could be.
Is it blackmail? Is it the fact that Israeli security and telecommunications firms have the ability to tap any phone call in the US including government lines up to and including the whitehouse?

Or, are the leaders of Canada and the US so blind that they honestly do see the facts as they stand?

I don't want another war, for anyone. I also don't want Israel to be attacked, or to attack anyone else.

What exactly does this make me? for me, it makes me a compassionate human being. But for "them" it makes me into a terrorist supporting antisemite.

*shrugs*

reply to post by davidendsley

Actions speak louder than words.

billions of dollars a year in "aid"
Wars with Iraq TWICE

Those actions speak rather loudly to me. and let us not forget that the US government REFUSES to even look at the possibility of Israeli involvement with 911, while at the same time, listing various jewish groups as terrorist groups.

Actions do speak louder than words.

Israel wanted Iraq toppled, basically done.
Israel wants Iran toppled, hold your breath
Israel wants Pakistan toppled, well, read any news sites about Pakistan
Israel wants Syria toppled, and look at that, they are already talking about a troop presence there.

And if Israel was REALLY the US's ally, why did they attempt to sell nuclear weapons to a rogue state? Who else did they sell to?

I love Israel because of its culture and its people.
There are lots of very creative people there, artists, musicians, scientific geniuses etc. They all speak good English and sometimes other languages so they can connect to people.
I dislike the warlike hawks - I prefer "liberal Jews" all across the world, who also dislike Theocracy and needless aggression while usually respecting Jewish family and religious traditions and mostly the traditions of others too. I befriended some religious Israeli people abroad, but mostly they were just very family-oriented and wanted to practice the Jewish customs.
As a modern nation, they also have an immense aptitude of self-criticism and self-scrutiny - just look at the recent articles in the liberal paper Haaretz. Find an example of that among the nations that are so against Israel. (Mostly you can only find expats). There are also regular protests for what I consider to be a good developmental line of the world and experimental performance.
I also met some hippies and other non-establishment types as well. They are usually keenly aware of the downside of Israeli politics. All those people I socialized with were very generous.

I have never personally been there. My wife spent some time and she felt basically local Arabs are not that different from a certain type of Israeli. (Blasphemy, isn't it?)

All that I consider interesting explorations, movements in the field of consciousness, psychology, organic growing etc. found a home in Israel also, not only California.

I met this black-and-white extremist attitude on the part of foreign propagandists for Israeli state politics though - in their view, multiplicity does not exist, there are no arguments, you are either for or against.

I could say at times foreign policy and the handling of Arabs borders upon paranoia on the part of the establishment. But just like Ahmadinedjad is not identical to the people of Iran, Barak etc. is not Israel. While liberal Jews (all around teh world, and in Israel) are usually for a less aggressive policy (though nobody wants surrender to total terrorists), I was told that the recent wave of very aggressive politics against the outside world is mainly promoted by recent Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe, and mainly the former Soviet countries.

As an immigrant in America in the 80's, I also found that Eastern European immigrants usually got on the bandwagon to support the wrong side of local politics. I understand where they came from, yet I thought they were mostly unfit to Western democracies due to several generations having lived in totalitarian systems only. The notable exceptions were people who worked a lot on advancing and changing their consciousness.

I understand many decent people leave Israel and live elsewhere - precisely because of this constant warlike situation which has been exacerbated for too long.
I see there were points in history where peace could have been achieved. No doubt some concessions in the past would have assisted the more peaceful Palestinians and other non-Jewish people in and around Israel. In recent years it starts to feel to me that it is kind of late. Gaza, Hamas, settlements, the Wall all promote extremism on both sides.

I do not buy either the argument that this is God-given land, and it should be expanded to Biblical boundaries, or the radical anti-Zionist argument on the other side, which says a nation with 60 years of official history (and many years before that) should just suddenly pack up and leave en masse because of a historical injustice. I think history is usually much more complex than that.

For that matter, Jordan refused to accept the original refugees (whose lands were mostly bought and not just taken). But there were also stories of terror and cheating on the other side. So historically, neighbouring Arab leaders share a big chunk of the responsibility for the plight of the Palestinians.

Is it so hard to understand that the situation is really complex and not lack and white, for or against?

Originally posted by spoor

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
Actually after 9/11 there was a comprehensive radiological survey done in New York and there were incredible strong readings coming from the Israeli embassy.

valid source for that claim?

Just google up this term:

new york israeli embassy radioactive

and you'll get at least two dozen valid sources. The original source is an FOIA from the GOA.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

Perhaps the most famous incident is the USS Liberty affair, in which Israelis "mistakenly" attacked a US Naval vessel repeatedly, after gathering intelligence on the vessel's disposition and capturing photographs of it which clearly show the US flag flying. This was the most overt attack that Israel has made against the USA, but certainly not the only one.

It was the 5th day of the 6 day war. The fighter pilots had been suffering from exhaustion, running campaigns for days on end. The USS liberty was in waters they were NOT ALLOWED to be in; secondly, they didn't even inform Israeli intelligence AS THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO that they were in Israeli waters, DURING a war with Egypt - one that had just recently become naval.

So Israel mistakenly attacked. When they got confirmation that the ship they were attacking was the USS liberty, Israel immediately tried to remedy the situation. They contacted washington and offered their condolences for those killed. The survivors of the attack were brought to Israel for medical treatment.

If anyone has studied the USS Liberty affair, there is simply NO JUSTIFIABLE reason to consider this an act of malice; WHY would Israel do that when America had been offering military intelligence to Israel? If Israel's Ambassador Abba Eban was in the US keeping the Americans up-to-date with the facts on the ground; when Israel put up with 3 weeks of an illegal block on the strait of tiran waiting for an American 'go ahead'?

Sometimes accidents happen. Read up on the history of war. In the 6 day war, for instance, one of Israels Tank regiments opened fire on another Israeli Tank regiment! Before they came to their sense 10 tanks were destroyed. Friendly fire happens!

Simply read up on the history. Those fighter pilots had been running missions for 4 days STRAIGHT. They were completely mentally exhausted; they were only used for further missions because Israel had nothing left. They had the planes, the pilots and still more military targets to attack (egyptian naval fleets). War is a very taxing affair.

Yeah and the nice Israelis supposedly called ahead before bombing the king David hotel. You see they are always right and thinking about humanity even when committing acts of terror.

How about the first hand accounts from the sailors on the ship who say without a doubt that it was intentional. Gunning the lifeboats even. Of course who listens to eyewitnesses if they don't tow the official story.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Does having a right to exist also imply that they can attack whoever they want, including the USA?

OP no respect here for Israel, translating literally, were "those who followed or belonged to the High Deities Ra and Isis."

now .. theBigToe..

Originally posted by theBigToe
Im not going to say what the colonists did to the Natives wasnt terrible genocide - BUT in our defense - you people get government checks every month and you live tax free in modern U.S.

Id say you have it the best of any group in this country. You practically own your own countries inside of this country

In poverty. you forgot to mention the Natives have & do live in absolute Poverty with a 50% unemployment rate. what a pompous, absolutely terrible thing to say to justify Genocide & treaty breaking by the US towards the Native Peoples.

Originally posted by theBigToe
lol all the more power to them I cant lose my money enough at the casinos! The U.S. gov is being lame though and trying to force the reservations to pay taxes on cigarettes >_< I like my 20 dollars cartons!

Doesn't matter how many died.. or how much injustice they have suffered . you want cheap cigarettes.. pathetic.

Originally posted by theBigToe
And the only unintelligent argument is the one thats calling for the extermination of the Jews, and those that pretend they mean peace and take sides with genocidal antisemites like Hamas.

Are the Palestinians that have murdered countless innocents also scumbags?

Are you taking a position that the Palestinians are benign and innocent and Israel is guilty of everything?

who started the 6 day war? Not the Palestinians, that is a FACT.

the war began on June 5 with Israel launching surprise air strikes against Arab forces. The outcome was a swift and decisive Israeli victory. Israel took effective control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. Opinions are divided on whether Israel's attack was an act of aggression or a preemptive strike of a defensive nature.

Israel does not care about Peace. You do not care about Peace. You would like to see the Palestinian Genocide by Israel continue, label them "scumbags", "terrorist's" for defending themselves since 1967 and obviously are willing & happy to have Americans die fighting Iran for Israel under the false pretense that Iran is a threat to the USA.

but, its ok to give Israel 8.2 million a day and spout off about the American Native's having it good, while Israel is well armed and committing war crimes to numerous to count.. You are the war monger supporting people who behave just as bad a those "Nazi's" who actions spawned Israel in the first place..

13 year-old Mohammad Badwan was tied by the arm to an Israeli military jeep in Biddo in April 2004.

because, hey, after all is said & done..

The Israeli's might just get "20 dollars cartons!" from the Goy Palestinians if any are left alive..

just like your Native American Genocide survivor's getting free pennies & tax breaks with a joke of sovereignty sell to you to scratch out a meager living..

what integrity.. /golfclap

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by avatard
reply to post by 3danimator

 

9/11 has basically been proven that the hijackers were israeli moussad..........check out napolitanos show,,just before they cancelled it for blowing the hoax presidential race out of the water..

I'm not going to claim i know anything about that event because i was not there to see what happened and saying you know something about it when you were not there is second or thirdhand information which is bearing false witness and is lying.

9th commandment "you shall not bear false witness"

edit on 14-2-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Not everybody believes in your god or his instructions you know.

If you take all of His Word to the letter you'd have to follow that Psalm that recommends you dash your enemy's children's heads against the rocks, and rape their women.

The Bible is a terrible source of instruction for moral living. It might be one of the most rotten documents ever conceived by man.

reply to post by theBigToe

First of all, the military isolationist ideology is the MOST ignorant ideology that exists

I dont know seems to be working pretty well for Switzerland.

The only time military force is necessary is when a foreign force is invading your land or a foreign force threatens the very foundation of the civilized world.

The threats and actions committed against Israel IMHO do not warrant the amount of force which they have thrown at Palestine over the last 10 years. I'm not saying Palestine has done nothing wrong, I'm just saying its overkill.

To the OP my opinion on Israel is this, leave them alone. I have no problem with Israel's existence, I only have a problem with their government...as I have a problem with MOST governments. The land grab from against the Palestinians happened along time ago, they can't just give back the land. The same way the US can't just give back the mass amount of land we took from the Native Americans. Its too far gone. The only thing we can do is look for a peaceful coexistence, something both the Israelis and Palestinians apparently do not want because of selfishness and millennia old grudges.

Israel needs to solve their own problems...the US has way too much to worry about without having to play referee between two peoples who fail t play nice with each other.

Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by Truth_Hz

 

It is merely cold blooded murder of innocent civilians to further a normally skewed political / religious agenda.

so is dropping bombs and white phosphorus onto civillian areas. I guess if you dont have any planes or bombs or white phosphorus or depleted uranium then blowing yourself up is the only weapon you have.

White phosphorus is used as a smoke screen, HELLO! Its not some chemical weapon. Ever hear of a smoke grenade? They use it to cover the movement of their troops in a hostile environment, not to hurt civilians.

Depleted Uranium is no longer used.

I love Israel, One because God commands it. Two because the Arabs stole it from the Jews. Three, when the Arabs did control the land it was a wasteland. Since the Jews have taken back most of their land it has blossomed and became a prosperous nation.

Four, The Arabs have enough dam land that they don't do jack squat with.

I would like everyone on ATS who hates Israel to answer this one question.

Why is there way more very ancient Jewish and Christian holy sites in Israel than the very few Islamic ones that are not even close to being as old???

Look into your heart and brain if you all have them and ask yourselves why the Jews have been persecuted since the beginning of time??

Your post is all lies my friend. White phosphorous, while used as a smoke screen, is also used to burn flesh and anything else. DU is used to the tune of tons per day in the middle east.

That God is at best, a minor Semitic hilltop creature. His true name is ISH-KUR and he was a minor player in the Semitic pantheon until his cultists started killing the worshippers of other Semitic gods. This was all documented well in the Elephantine Papyri.

During the British Mandate period in Palestine, going back to the time of Muhammed, the Sephardic Jews who lived there got along fine with the Muslims. It was only when the Khazarian jews from eastern europe went down there that trouble started.

There are a lot of ancient ruins in Israel that have been identified as holy sites, but this is true in Rome and Easter Island and Iraq and Missouri and every other place where people have lived.

Originally posted by theBigToe
reply to post by SamHamYafithYam

 

Zionist is your word for Jews. Dont pretend its some bigger plot then it is. Zionist is what you call the Jews because saying you want to kill the Jews people would have a pretty good idea what youre about. Saying you want to kill Zionists, people stop and go, whats that? And then you sound less like the evil person you are. The truth is - youre an anti semite and youre genocidal.

This charade isn't working any more. Even as far back as the early part of this century, the false libel that all people who are critical of Zionism are also anti-Semitic was destroyed by many people. Even a lot of Jews are anti-Zionist - the Neturei Karta among many other traditional Jewish sects are against Zionism.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Shred

 

If we start distributing land by "ancient ownership" then the world will look much different. Think native Americans, aboriginal Europeans, slavic expansion into the area of modern Russia, Ainus of Japan etc etc. Is that what you advocate?

Alot of my people are onboard with that idea. I'm decended from the cherokee nation of native americans and there are many a tribe that would be more than happy to have returned to them what was stolen from them. Our lands are cursed with the blood of the innocent, the only hope we have left is in Yahshua for the new earth.

Maybe you didn't realize this, but Kennewick Man was a caucasian. He was a redhead with blue eyes. The Mandan people were also caucasian.

What this means is that all you brown eyed, black haired "native" americans really came over and genocided most of the true caucasian native americans, and if we take your plan seriously you get to go back to Asia and live in northern China.

Originally posted by reeferman
OP no respect here for Israel, translating literally, were "those who followed or belonged to the High Deities Ra and Isis."

now .. theBigToe..

Originally posted by theBigToe
Im not going to say what the colonists did to the Natives wasnt terrible genocide - BUT in our defense - you people get government checks every month and you live tax free in modern U.S.

Id say you have it the best of any group in this country. You practically own your own countries inside of this country

In poverty. you forgot to mention the Natives have & do live in absolute Poverty with a 50% unemployment rate. what a pompous, absolutely terrible thing to say to justify Genocide & treaty breaking by the US towards the Native Peoples.

Originally posted by theBigToe
lol all the more power to them I cant lose my money enough at the casinos! The U.S. gov is being lame though and trying to force the reservations to pay taxes on cigarettes >_< I like my 20 dollars cartons!

Doesn't matter how many died.. or how much injustice they have suffered . you want cheap cigarettes.. pathetic.

Originally posted by theBigToe
And the only unintelligent argument is the one thats calling for the extermination of the Jews, and those that pretend they mean peace and take sides with genocidal antisemites like Hamas.

Are the Palestinians that have murdered countless innocents also scumbags?

Are you taking a position that the Palestinians are benign and innocent and Israel is guilty of everything?

who started the 6 day war? Not the Palestinians, that is a FACT.

the war began on June 5 with Israel launching surprise air strikes against Arab forces. The outcome was a swift and decisive Israeli victory. Israel took effective control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. Opinions are divided on whether Israel's attack was an act of aggression or a preemptive strike of a defensive nature.

Israel does not care about Peace. You do not care about Peace. You would like to see the Palestinian Genocide by Israel continue, label them "scumbags", "terrorist's" for defending themselves since 1967 and obviously are willing & happy to have Americans die fighting Iran for Israel under the false pretense that Iran is a threat to the USA.

but, its ok to give Israel 8.2 million a day and spout off about the American Native's having it good, while Israel is well armed and committing war crimes to numerous to count.. You are the war monger supporting people who behave just as bad a those "Nazi's" who actions spawned Israel in the first place..

13 year-old Mohammad Badwan was tied by the arm to an Israeli military jeep in Biddo in April 2004.

because, hey, after all is said & done..

The Israeli's might just get "20 dollars cartons!" from the Goy Palestinians if any are left alive..

just like your Native American Genocide survivor's getting free pennies & tax breaks with a joke of sovereignty sell to you to scratch out a meager living..

what integrity.. /golfclap

Dude I was making a joke to my friend there - you dont need to take it serious and out of context. lol Youre so lame.

reply to post by dontreally


The Liberty was in international waters. The USA does not have to ask for Israel's permission to be anywhere in international waters.

Besides the Liberty was just one of many attacks that Israel has committed against the USA and its allies. They all present a very disturbing pattern.

Israel is America's worst enemy. No one spied on us as much, stolen our secrets as much, and committed false flag attacks against us as Israel has. 9/11 was a Mossad op from top to bottom. They hate us. They just like our money, and they like our military fighting for them. But hey you evangelicals out there, keep kissing their ass. That's how some israelis like their goyim, compliant and stupid.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by dontreally

Simply read up on the history. Those fighter pilots had been running missions for 4 days STRAIGHT. They were completely mentally exhausted; they were only used for further missions because Israel had nothing left. They had the planes, the pilots and still more military targets to attack (egyptian naval fleets). War is a very taxing affair.

You can post your vile lies on this site all you want, But dont you dare disrespect the men who were murdered on that day by Scumbag Israeli's , who's only mistake was leaving witnessess.

The Israeli's in a fly by before the attack, flew so low, they WAVED to the men on the Liberty.


When the men on the Liberty abandoned ship, Israeli gunboats came and Machine Gunned them.

Here is a great Doc on the affair, Interviews by the Survivor's on the Attack, not some Israeli boot lickin key jockey

Not only that, but in Israel a book was published about the incident, and on the book's front cover was a gun camera photograph of the Liberty with the American flag clearly visible.

That's about as in-your-face proof that the Israelis knew that the Liberty was an American vessel as anybody should need.

Additionally, the Israelis started jamming the Liberty shortly before they commenced their attack. Interestingly, the Americans and the Egyptians used very different radio channels for their shipboard communications, so this is more proof that the Israelis knew that the Liberty was an American vessel.

Originally posted by dontreally
And to just point out again: The USS liberty was in waters THEY HAD NO PERMISSION TO BE IN, DURING a war between Israel and Egypt.

Had they at least notified the Israeli's of their presence this surely would not have happened. But they didn't. While Israel was the agent responsible for the attack, and should be blamed, American military intelligence should incur at least some degree of guilt; they put their men in a precarious situation DURING a war, without notifying one of the warring parties. Why they were their to begin with, is a question in itself.

This was an unfortunate case of friendly fire, by pilots exasperated by 4 days of flying. They saw a ship, confused it for an Egyptian vessel, and attacked. Yes, the follow up attack by an Israeli frigate was also bizarre, but they were following up on the same mistaken intel that led the pilots to attack the ship.

Just to point it out again, the Liberty was in international waters, and did not need Israeli permission to be there. The USA does not have to ask Israeli permission to go anywhere it likes in international waters.

Originally posted by theBigToe

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by dontreally

Simply read up on the history. Those fighter pilots had been running missions for 4 days STRAIGHT. They were completely mentally exhausted; they were only used for further missions because Israel had nothing left. They had the planes, the pilots and still more military targets to attack (egyptian naval fleets). War is a very taxing affair.

You can post your vile lies on this site all you want, But dont you dare disrespect the men who were murdered on that day by Scumbag Israeli's , who's only mistake was leaving witnessess.

The Israeli's in a fly by before the attack, flew so low, they WAVED to the men on the Liberty.


When the men on the Liberty abandoned ship, Israeli gunboats came and Machine Gunned them.

Here is a great Doc on the affair, Interviews by the Survivor's on the Attack, not some Israeli boot lickin key jockey

Are the Palestinians that have murdered countless innocents also scumbags?

Are you taking a position that the Palestinians are benign and innocent and Israel is guilty of everything? Even the crimes of the Palestinians? Im just wondering if your position is flexible or if you are simply being an absolutist in your stance that Israel is the "scum of the Earth" and anybody against Israel is in the right? If they used a nuclear weapon on Israel, would you justify that?

edit on 14-2-2012 by theBigToe because: (no reason given)

He didn't say anything about the Palestinians. This thread has nothing to do with Palestinians. This is about the Israelis repeatedly attacking the USA and her allies. Often times they have done so dressed as Muslims in an attempt to get the USA to do Israel's dirty work for it. This is a historically proven fact, but it makes one wonder - how many of the so-called Islamic terror attacks against the USA and her allies were really Israeli operations? Probably most of them, going by Israel's record of deception. That deception continues to this day, both in the media and in the form of posts like yours, which alternate between lies, obfuscation, and the retelling of history with a fictional perspective.

People are wising up to this scheme.

Originally posted by davidendsley
If America is Israel's ally, then why does America sell weapons to Israel's enemies? Picture the following scenario. Frank says he is Jim's friend. Bill is Jim's enemy. Bill tells Frank that he would like to shoot Jim. Frank gives Bill a gun. Now...what does that say about the "friendship" between Frank and Jim?

The same can be said about he relationship between the American government and Israel. While there are many American citizens who do love Israel, the American government does not. Actions speak louder than words. If the words to not match the actions, then the words are the words of hypocrisy.

Two countries can be allies and yet do not have to all agree on which countries they like and dislike. France and the USA are allies, but we have very different views on some nations.

We do not have to ask Israel's permission to sell arms to any nation.