Greece 'a breath away from ground zero', PM warns

Originally posted by brill

This is non sequitur. If Papademos is this knowledgeable then why didn't he intercept the problem or raise awareness given his broad and extensive background. How can someone who is privy to the banking situation, and a national to boot, help lead his own people to such despair ? Sounds more like a class A douche and money grubbing worm as opposed to someone who would hold Greece's best interest at heart. He's one individual of course and not solely to blame but it sure as hell looks like he was helping to steer this ship aground. I'm sure the payouts were nice.

I certainly do agree that the people of Greece heavily contributed to the problem as well and now have a responsibility.

He has been in charge only since November...so I don't think we can hold him responsible for the problems there.

Here we go again with the rhetoric..."a class A douche and money grubbing worm". "he was helping to steer this ship aground." Based on what?

Originally posted by mobiusmale
He has been in charge only since November...so I don't think we can hold him responsible for the problems there.

Here we go again with the rhetoric..."a class A douche and money grubbing worm". "he was helping to steer this ship aground." Based on what?

Are you intentionally dismissing this persons history, education and employment ?

He taught economics at Columbia University from 1975 until 1984, and then at the University of Athens from 1988 to 1993. He has served as Senior Economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston in 1980. He joined the Bank of Greece in 1985 as Chief Economist, rising to Deputy Governor in 1993 and Governor in 1994. During his time as Governor of the national bank, Papademos was involved in Greece's transition from the drachma to the euro as its national currency
After leaving the Bank of Greece in 2002, Papademos became the Vice President to Wim Duisenberg (and then Jean-Claude Trichet) at the European Central Bank from 2002 to 2010.

Clearly this idiot had insight and prior knowledge of what was to come and it appears as though he did little to prevent it. The fact that he has been put in place (unelected at that) since November is a useless point, look at his background !

brill

reply to post by brill

Clearly this idiot had insight and prior knowledge of what was to come and it appears as though he did little to prevent it. The fact that he has been put in place (unelected at that) since November is a useless point, look at his background !

Quite likely this "idiot" did have insight of what was to come...given his background and experience.

But also just as likely, as only a vice-President, his advice was being ignored - and this led to his former boss's ouster.

There may well be good reason he is now the man in charge

reply to post by mobiusmale

Look at it in terms of your own family finances. If your parents say that they will lend you some money, so that you can pay back some other debts - but that they will only do so if you cut back on your spending.
Does this mean you will have to cut back on your lifestyle? Yes. Does it mean that you will eventually be able to stand on your own two feet again? Also, yes.

You still do not get it. Let me ask you again : " How can you repay your debts, if you have no growth ?" Or to put it to your example, "How can you repay the debt to your parent, if you can not generate money to repay the debt?" The solution which you propose, is more debt and cuts. In other words, you will keep lending money, thus increasing the debt. The debt now amounts to 169%, and more than 20% unemployment, no growth and more cuts and taxes. That is the success of the "Merkel-solution".

Well...go ahead and turn down the funds, while defaulting on your current debts. Let's see how much growth you will have in the Greek economy. Let's see if anybody wants to invest in Greece for the next 20 years or so.

Greece has an, an ongoing default for the last few years inside the EU. The only difference is that the new measures it´s a "sell-out". So whether inside the EU and broke, or outside of the EU and broke, investments will be zero.

Look...I get the anger, and the reluctance to "face the music".

No, i do not think you do. The fact is that what Greece is facing the last years, is a default in process. The only difference with the new measures, instead of helping the "Growth", these measures are to drain, even the last resources that Greece has, for the benefit of foreign creditors, and to create the Firewall, to stop the contagion, that might come if Greece exits the EU.

At some point, the bill collectors will come to call. And the consequences are usually less than pleasant or convenient.

Let me rephrase your sugar-coated statement. The powerful interests of bankers, entanglement, usury, economy, the political forces that destroyed the country, they all represent the rescuers today. The saviors of the interests of the few who present the "sugarcoated - slavery" and "sell out" as a "national need".

Peace

Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by surrealist

 

Not only that, nobody really knows what repercussions this could have on the Eurozone and EU more broadly, via contagion.

The faster it crashes the EU, the better.

The EU needs to die already. It was based on BS, was put in place undemocratically and is always reaching for more power... a lot of European politicians have liken it to the Soviet Union... it's time for it to go away.

edit on 12-2-2012 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

I for once agree with you Vitchilo.

Will wonders never cease.

The EU is diseased. Let it die.

These nations need to rebuild. The whole EU social philosophy is a killer.

19:19 Theodorakis has just spoken to the press inside parliament. He said "the people will win" just as they did against the Nazis and the junta.

19:10 Also caught up in this afternoon's tear gas was composer Mikis Theodorakis, 86. A spokeswoman from his office has told Real FM radio that police fired tear gas just as Theodorakis was about to speak to the crowd on Syntagma. She described the unprovoked attack as an "attempt to kill him" and says the police deliberately targetted him.

www.athensnews.gr...

Originally posted by Aeons

Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by surrealist

 

Not only that, nobody really knows what repercussions this could have on the Eurozone and EU more broadly, via contagion.

The faster it crashes the EU, the better.

The EU needs to die already. It was based on BS, was put in place undemocratically and is always reaching for more power... a lot of European politicians have liken it to the Soviet Union... it's time for it to go away.

edit on 12-2-2012 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

I for once agree with you Vitchilo.

Will wonders never cease.

The EU is diseased. Let it die.

These nations need to rebuild. The whole EU social philosophy is a killer.

EU itself is not a bad idea. It's just a bad idea to try to form a United States of Europe when the nations have a millenia long history, much of that time fighting wars against each other, and the economies are clearly divided between north and south. If and when the current structure collapses a new one will replace it, hopefully it'll be the system the people voted to join in the first place, a loose trade union.

A loose trade union that doesn't package a social agenda with its economic agenda.

The current model doesn't fix the problem in the South or East of Europe. It sets them up for failure, even if you ignore the social agenda.

Originally posted by mobiusmale
reply to post by brill

 

Clearly this idiot had insight and prior knowledge of what was to come and it appears as though he did little to prevent it. The fact that he has been put in place (unelected at that) since November is a useless point, look at his background !

Quite likely this "idiot" did have insight of what was to come...given his background and experience.
But also just as likely, as only a vice-President, his advice was being ignored - and this led to his former boss's ouster.
There may well be good reason he is now the man in charge

Not buying that one, but that is certainly your prerogative. He is or was in a position to do more. He could have resigned or gone public with what he knew. Maybe he did and like you say nobody listened. Is he to blame....of course not. Could he have done more....I think so. Having him run this show now is like putting the monkey in charge of the bananas. I say let the people decide through referendum.

It was just announced that yet another minister resigned (public order) so the rats are scurrying. It was also reported, but not confirmed, that the documents being voted on contained place markers of "XX" where dollar figures should be. wow.

brill

Originally posted by brill but not confirmed, that the documents being voted on contained place markers of "XX" where dollar figures should be. wow.

brill

sorry, might be having a slow night, but what does this bit mean?

Look at what is going on in Athens now. Apparently some five buildings are or were burning. The minister for public order has resigned.

demanded by the country’s international lenders

There we have it; clear as day. The financial elite dictating to the Greek government how to manage it's own country.

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by brill but not confirmed, that the documents being voted on contained place markers of "XX" where dollar figures should be. wow.

brill

sorry, might be having a slow night, but what does this bit mean?

It is rumoured, and I emphasize that word, that the legislation being presented in the Greek parliament to which they will vote on very shorty literally has "XX" where dollars figures should be presented. In other words they are simply masking out the pain because the figure of debt has sky rocketed. Without a source though it is more or less garbage but an interesting bit if proven true.

brill

Originally posted by brill

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by brill but not confirmed, that the documents being voted on contained place markers of "XX" where dollar figures should be. wow.

brill

sorry, might be having a slow night, but what does this bit mean?

It is rumoured, and I emphasize that word, that the legislation being presented in the Greek parliament to which they will vote on very shorty literally has "XX" where dollars figures should be presented. In other words they are simply masking out the pain because the figure of debt has sky rocketed. Without a source though it is more or less garbage but an interesting bit if proven true.

brill

ah right, cheers

Only a matter of time beforeother countries follow look at what is going on in egypt right now

Not too knowledgeable about this at all but... .just look at how bailouts screwed our usa over. You'd think that other Countries would learn from that terrible horrible mistake. We're beyond screwed from them getting addicted to doing that.

These corporate thugs are acting like third world dictators:

01:24 Antonis Samaras has expelled 21 MPs from his New Democracy parliamentary party! That leaves ND with 62 MPs.

George Papandreou has expelled the same number from Pasok.

And, finishing the Night of the Long Knives, Makis Voridis and Adonis Georgiadis have been expelled from the Popular Orthodox Rally.

www.athensnews.gr...

This sounds very corrupt.

reply to post by surrealist

Well, things are all as they need to be I suppose. It has to have some cosmic purpose to it. The way it all comes together is just so odd. Modern civilization as we know it came from Greece and the tenets of Government as Athens thought it up. (Well, the books say so! ) .....and in Athens the final start toward the bottom of modern civilization begins.

Really, isn't that just the oddest thing how it really does look like Greece will beat everyone else in being the first total and complete failed state in the West? The first of many.....

Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by surrealist

 

Not only that, nobody really knows what repercussions this could have on the Eurozone and EU more broadly, via contagion.

The faster it crashes the EU, the better.

The EU needs to die already. It was based on BS, was put in place undemocratically and is always reaching for more power... a lot of European politicians have liken it to the Soviet Union... it's time for it to go away.

edit on 12-2-2012 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

Why? What exactly is wrong with the EU? I admit it has lost its focus a bit but the EU is a good institution in theory. The Euro is another story but failing entirely down to its formulation rather than the actual idea itself - it was badly put together with not enough checks and constraints. However, a single currency is not a bad idea.

I am not going to get sucked into another Greece thread but some of the ignorance about global finance is absolutely staggering on a site like ATS.

reply to post by Flavian


To laugh at others and their ignorance in the same comment as being upbeat about the euro single currency is irony personified, kudos