Jacques Vallee: Implications of UFO Phenomena - Thinking Allowed.

John A. Keel, in his book "Our Haunted Planet" gives an interesting introduction to the reality of an alien race that has taken careful measures to remain hidden from the mass consciousness of those dwelling on the surface of planet earth,or those ignorant "human cattle" whom they are intent on manipulating and exploiting from their secret hiding places above,below and even amongst the inhabitants of planet earth...

An extremely lucid thinker, this is a man who really did help invent the internet.

reply to post by The GUT


He worked on APRANET, a precursor network.

Originally posted by Morg234

An extremely lucid thinker, this is a man who really did help invent the internet.

reply to post by The GUT

 

He worked on APRANET, a precursor network.

Yes, I know. Good info. It's ARPANET, your acronym is off I think? My quote stands, though, eh?

I'm digging up some stuff to add here. Great discussion. Hope it stays hot.

greyer: Yes we are simpatico on many aspects of what these illusive figments or real-deal foe really are. Jacques Vallee is, I believe though, one of the good guys.

That's not to say there aren't things he acknowledges he can't speak about for security or non-disclosure business agreements (Bigelow Space & SkinWalker Ranch for instance)

But he also makes it clear that nothing he's seen or knows about detracts from his basic hypothesis about the phenomena.

I also just hit "clicky" on a Sc-Fi book of his called "Stratagem." If you read what he himself and others have said about, it sounds like a lil' more may be revealed in a fictionalized form.

Cost a purty penny...but he remains one of the most worthwhile author/intellects I've spent money on.

More later.

blocula, suggests the intriguing "thought-form" concept (Manly P. Hall addressees them from the metaphysical aspect, btw) and that brings to mind the Golem of Jewish Folklore,
sometimes said to have been given life by the "ecstatic" experiences of it's makers.

Thought-forms would span the chasm--they could fall in either camp I mean--of Jungianesque Archetypes created from deep within our connected psyches...or true Interdimendional beings.

They seem, if they exist, to steer the interaction, but we co-create these experiences with them. At whatever level.

Some posit, that Science will one day learn what the Theologians, Mystics, Philosophers, the Scientist cum Alchemist, and The Mage have known since recorded time: Theeey're Here! But they're also endurably confounding…mebbe.

Some intriguing quotes from some intriguing folk, you might or might not have run across before:

"We are part of a symbiotic relationship with something which disguises itself as an extra-terrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us." 
-Terrence McKenna [from a lecture]

"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships." 
- Arthur C. Clarke, New York Times Book Review, 07/27/75

"But the UFO phenomenon simply does not behave like extraterrestrial visitors. It actually molds itself in order to fit a given culture."
- John Ankerberg, The Facts on UFOs and Other Supernatural Phenomena, p. 10

"Human beings are under the control of a strange force that bends them in absurd ways, forcing them to play a role in a bizarre game of deception." 
- Dr. Jacques Vallee, Messengers of Deception, p. 20

"We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth." 
- Brad Steiger, [cited in] Blue Book Files Released in Canadian UFO Report, Vol. 4, No. 4, 1977, p. 20

"There seems to be no evidence yet that any of these craft or beings originate from outer space." 
-Gordon Creighton, Official 1992 Flying Saucer Review Policy Statement

"UFO behaviour is more akin to magic than to physics as we know it... the modern UFOnauts and the demons of past days are probably identical." 
-Dr. Pierre Guerin, FSR Vol. 25, No. 1, p. 13-14

Jacques Vallee is no doubt a brilliant man. But he hasn't come up with anything new in god knows how long. I do not see any of the effects he claims are taking place. UFO reports come and go. Videos are shot daily. Claims of alien abductions have sort of fallen off the map. Nothing new has happened in UFOland. Nothing has changed.

I've had 6 sightings, I videotaped one, and I've never been contacted by anyone nor have I ever been threatened. I don't have a belief system so no one or no anything can get to me mentally.

I do agree with Vallee in one respect and that is that I lean towards the dimensionality of UFOs and do not think them to be ET although since they've filmed flitting over the moon that makes them ET but I don't think that they come from deep space or any other far-away planet.

Regardless of what Vallee's conclusions are, he is still an earthling that has not been given any special information, he has deduced what he speaks of.

However, he is more entertaining and listenable than any of the popular authors such as Stanton Friedman, David Jacobs, Bill Birnes, Jenny Randles, Kevin D. Randle, Richard Boylan, Philip J. Imbrogno, Jerome Clark, Timothy Good, Richard M. Dolan, Jim Marrs. William Moore, Ann Druffel, Brad Steiger, Budd Hopkins, etc.

I have read Jacques Vallee's "Passport to Magonia-On UFOs Folklore and Parallel Worlds"-1993 edition twice and its one of the best of its kind and i have read well over a hundred non-fiction ufo and alien books...

Originally posted by Komodo
Personally, there's only 1 question that will answer this phenomena, in 1977, could there have been this kind of technology back then, (essentially having the energy of a nuclear reactor withing the size of a small sized studio).

Komodo, thanks for the reply and, although I don't know the answer to your question, you certainly make some good points (along with everyone else) -I suppose it's best to try and keep a completely open mind with the UFO subject, especially when it comes to speculating about origin and Jacques Vallee certainly makes an intriguing points about the extra-dimensional hypothesis below:

In his recent autobiographical book, Forbidden Science, Vallee summed up his views about the provenance of UFOs, a viewpoint that he's developed through decades of research: "The UFO Phenomenon exists. It has been with us throughout history. It is physical in nature and it remains unexplained in terms of contemporary science. It represents a level of consciousness that we have not yet recognized, and which is able to manipulate dimensions beyond time and space as we understand them." So much for anti-gravity-powered starships ferrying Big Brothers from outer space. Vallee thinks UFOs are likely "windows" to other dimensions manipulated by intelligent, often mischievous, always enigmatic beings we have yet to understand.

link

He also makes some good points about UFO waves and it's interesting you brought up the year 1977 as it was host to probably one of the most bizarre cases in the history of UFO/USO research..


Hostile UFO Encounters: Colares, 1977


There was also a huge UFO wave across the state of Ohio in October 1973 witnessed by a great many police officers and town residents who reported objects "covered with red, green and blue lights" zooming about at tree-top level - the sheer number of similar reports even led to this statement from U.S. Representative J. Edward Roush:

"The increased sightings nationally could lead to a state of panic and hysteria and we ought to be concerned about it."

U.S. Rep. J. Edward Roush (D-Ind.)
Columbus Citizen Journal
Oct. 18, 1973

Guest Blogger: John Lasker ‘The UFO invasion of October 1973′

Originally posted by Komodo
2nd, I do NOT agree with the idea that this phenomenon is coming from our own minds, sorry, I just can't buy this based on the fact that; if it was coming from out own minds then how is it possible that we can take pictures of these solid objects, have thousands of reports from police, commercial/military/private pilots of the same thing and some of this phenomenon is being captured on radar.

No, I don't agree with a purely psychological explanation either and UFOs certainly do appear on radar screens in the same area of sky as to which many eye-witnesses report -certain police cases also involve separately located witnesses and in other incidents objects are known to exhibit electromagnetic interference effects on actual aircraft or leave behind physical trace evidence - I think Mr Vallee understands this and although he mentions the work of Carl Jung he concludes that 'UFOs are physical in nature'.

Having said that here's what Carl Jung said in 1954 and 1967:

"A purely psychological explanation is ruled out... the discs show signs of intelligent guidance, by quasi-human pilots... the authorities in possession of important information should not hesitate to enlighten the public as soon and as completely as possible."
"Dr. Carl Jung on Unidentified Flying Objects," Flying Saucer Review, Vol. 1, No. 2, 1955.


"It remains an established fact, supported by numerous observations, that UFOs have not only been seen visually but have also been picked up on the radar screen and have left traces on the photographic plate."
"A Fresh Look at Flying Saucers," Time, August 4, 1967.

link

..

Originally posted by Komodo

3rd, it's either deep secret black budget ops or it's ET, plain ans simple.

I suppose there's a lot of different opinions out there and, although each case should be taken on its own merits, some researchers suggest UFOs may originate from under the ocean, some speculate they may be multi-dimensional in nature, some suggest they may be time travellers, some suggest they may be intelligent plasma life-forms, some suggest they may be evolved machine intelligence and some people even suggest they may be 'demonic entities' - don't know about the last one but I think it pays to explore all options, especialy with a subject as slippery and elusive as 'UFO origin'

I don't know if you've seen it but Zoologist Ivan T Sanderson also produced some good work here on the subject:

Ivan T Sanderson

It is a shame that Sanderson, a biologist by profession, wrote only two books on UFOs. It is a greater shame that he is all but forgotten today. His first book, Uninvited Visitors (1967) remains among the most sophisticated analyses yet done on the possible nature of UFOs (Sanderson called them Unexplained Aerial Objects, or UAOs).

Too long to summarize here, Sanderson methodically asked, not what UAOs were, but what they could be. He developed a six page outline of the possibilities. Thus, they could be inanimate or animate. If inanimate, they might be natural, or artificial, each possibility with several subsets. If animate, they could also be natural or artificial. Natural forms might include life-forms indigenous to space, or to atmospheres, or to solid bodies. Artificial forms might be domesticated natural life-forms, genetically created life forms, or biochemically created life forms. And so on.

Sanderson at several points suggested the possibility that the "occupants" of UFOs might be artificial life forms. He was not dogmatic about this, and also entertained the idea that they might be an as-yet unknown life-form indigenous to Earth. Still, the concept of UFOs as a form of artificial intelligence is fertile enough that we might have expected some follow-up.

After all, it’s been 35 years.

link

Cheers.

Originally posted by lazernation

So nice to listen to a couple of true intellectuals discuss the phenomena, rather than argue about it.

Personally, I think Jacques maybe onto something. I mean, why does it have to be a purely physical phenomena? I like him a lot. Very articulate and obviously very passionate, without the sales pitch that we hear from so many so called researchers and debunkers.

Hey Lazernation, I agree with your comments there and it's certainly nice to hear a calm, intellectual discussion about the UFO subject, even if it is purely speculative - ATS member Norio Hayakawa has uploaded a video below featuring Jacques Vallee's 'five most important propositions regarding the UFO phenomena' and whilst I don't necessarily subscribe to all of them, it is interesting food for thought from an experienced and veteran researcher.





Vallee's UFO chart on UFO encounters can also be found in this clip from Orkojoker's excellent series of UFO Education videos where he briefly discusses patterns in UFO cases and how science needs to deal with UFO data:

PDF

Cheers.

reply to post by karl 12


Thank you for sharing the interview videos with Jacques Vallee.

I have several of his books and he is a really good writer.

Very intelligent man and highly recommend anyone interested in this area of study to get some of his books.

The two I have are REVELATIONS: Alien Contact and Human Deception and DIMENSIONS: A Casebook of Alien Contact.

We're just beginning to understand time and space - still have a long long way to go.

BTW; The French scientist in Steven Spielberg's "Close Encounters Of The Third Kind was modeled after Vallee.

Originally posted by karl 12
...
2nd, I do NOT agree with the idea that this phenomenon is coming from our own minds, sorry, I just can't buy this based on the fact that; if it was coming from out own minds then how is it possible that we can take pictures of these solid objects, have thousands of reports from police, commercial/military/private pilots of the same thing and some of this phenomenon is being captured on radar.

...


Think about this: What is the randomness in quantum mechanics? Without that randomness we have a deterministic universe with no room for metaphysics such as spirits and free will. With that randomness we cannot predict the future - even if we know the state of everything in the present. The randomness in quantum mechanics allows for things outside physical reality to influence physical reality if the randomness can be controlled.

Maybe there is a metaphysical dimension to our existence that creates UFOs without our conscious intention. I think quantum mechanics allows for this possibility even though it is impossible to prove anything scientifically.

reply to post by The Shrike
Nice to see you moving towards hope which precedes credence, which leads to conclusion…and then belief! We'll get you there yet, shrike, but you do make good points, as many others have above.

Jacques Vallee's ufological contributions, in my estimation, accomplish two main things:

1. His books, studies, and hypotheses are well-proposed and make excellent primers for an overview of the phenomena.

2. His Interdimensional Hypothesis provides a framework for further dialogue and, as ufological theories go, is a pretty tight fit.

Jacques Vallee, for me, is more like a jumping off place. I'm glad I'm not a scientist working to unravel this phenomena. I don't have to stay neutral once I've come to a personal conclusion from my own perusal of the "evidence.".

And, Hey Shrike! Conclusions aren't always bad. Some of the finest moments of my life have come from apt conclusions.

That doesn't mean thinking becomes stasis, it just means you think you've found your man and the manhunt is on so-to-speak.

An interesting & rather brilliant OP by Skyfloating that might fit in here:

Alien Abduction: An astral phenomenon?

The reason, I think it pertinent is traditional E.T. ufology has been burdened with something so very hard to swallow: Alien Abductions. The hypnotists have ruined and gave such a poor name to ufology with this aspect of the phenomena.

Who could blame an E.T. proponent for sticking to his guns and refusing to acknowledge the phenomea of abduction as a worthy inclusion into the field?

However, if the abduction phenomena is real...sort off...just not in the way the hyponotists have "shaped" the story it can be seen in another context. What if abductions are an extra-dimensional issue?

One night a few weeks ago i saw a black triangle with three lights fly over me...

It was flying far too slowly and silently to have been of human origin imo...

This black triangle was flying so slow that if it was made of metal or wood it should have fallen out of the sky and crashed...

This thing flew directly over me and i could see the bottom of the craft clearly lit up by its three lights that were shining down and illuminating the houses,trees and me that it flew over...

The three lights were circular,set into the craft and were about 10ft across...

There were no other lights of any kind or color on the bottom or sides of the craft,i could'nt see the top of it...

It had the appearance of smooth black,seamless metal or plastic,or some other unknown material...

It was around 500-700ft above me and was around 75ft across from point to point and was about 20ft thick...

I saw it approach from behind a group of tall trees beyond the backyard of a house across the street and i lost sight of it beyond other trees behind our backyard...

The distance it traveled between the two groups of trees where i saw it flying is about 1,800ft...

So it took about 2 minutes for it to fly around 1/3 of a mile...

It was flying flat side forward,not pointed side first,which is another unusual factor that makes me think that it was designed within some alternate reality where aerodynamic laws are different than ours...

Perhaps it was a lighter than air craft like a dirigible? but they dont fly silently,because once a goodyear blimp flew over me one night at around the same height and i could plainly hear the hum of its engine running...

Maybe it was a three dimensional hologram with animated mass projected into our reality by superior beings from another dimension?

Or was it a remotely controlled alien drone ship sent out from a stealthed mothership in cloaked orbit around earth somewhere high above where i saw it?

Was it a robotic craft programmed to fly itself here from another planet in another galaxy,or from an alternate reality,or another dimension,just like we send spaceships to other planets and moons?

Or was it a tulpa,a temporary thought form that i unknowingly projected out from within my own subconscious, similar to a poltergeist,but more real?

Was it the ghost of a flying vehicle that once existed somwhere in time long ago within our forgotten past?

Was it part of a time slip that opened a window upon the future and i was able to view some of our yet to be technology?

Was it a piloted or remotely controlled time machine with audio and visual recording capabilities?

I have so many different ideas about what it might have been...

I have so few answers about what it is...

Originally posted by blocula
One night a few weeks ago i saw a black triangle with three lights fly over me...

It was flying far too slowly and silently to have been of human origin imo...

This black triangle was flying so slow that if it was made of metal or wood it should have fallen out of the sky and crashed...

blocula, you might find the following paper to be interesting. The author argues, with math, that the "stealth blimp," as far as can be ascertained at this point--isn't logistically compatible/feasible with the reports and data we have at this time.

The author asserts, rather convincingly, that Blimps shouldn't be able to do what they Triangles are reported to do.

NIDS has a Black Triangle paper too, that's at least an interesting read, but does tend toward the "Military Black-OPs" scenario at times.

Here's the first article (PDF) that I mentioned:

Observations of apparent Exotic Propulsion technologies from Hectometer sized Deltoid Aerial Craft at low altitude

Bear with me, for what we might call a 'mythological' survey for a moment.

Theologistical (yes I made that up but I like it) and occult literature, in fact, our recorded history from just about all past cultures are replete with flying, glowing, crafts and personages that have taken either an active or inactive interest in our world.

Every religion or self-written history suggests, records, and describes that at some point in the past--and apparently the present as well--these 'beings' interaction with us...often in great detail from learned and brilliant academics.

It's further germane, I think, to note that every society that has a developed written history, report a "war" of some sort between some of these mysterious beings and mankind.

If not war, at least a "Trickster" confidence game that leaves many with psychic-egg on their faces.

karl12, mentions above, amongst other theorems, the possibility of plasma-type lifeforms. An idea that I once found far-fetched but no more.

I propose that "Critters"--not Rods they ARE bugs--but Critters are a distinct possibility.

I also have a hunch that critters span the range of consciousness the same, basically, as we see on earth:

Humans are to amoebas as Interdimensionals are to Critters.

Plasma, to me, seems a worthy study in sizing up our "visitors."

It's hard to separate plasma-like adjectives when discussing the phenomena. Plasma, Fiery, Pulsating...the list goes on.

“Bohm, a leading expert in twentieth century plasma physics, observed in amazement that once electrons were in plasma, they stopped behaving like individuals and started behaving as if they were a part of a larger and interconnected whole.

Although the individual movements of each electron appeared to be random, vast numbers of electrons were able to produce collective effects that were surprisingly well organized and appeared to behave like a life form. The plasma constantly regenerated itself and enclosed impurities in a wall in the same way that a biological organism, like the unicellular amoeba, might encase a foreign substance in a cyst.

So amazed was Bohm by these life-like qualities that he later remarked that he frequently had the impression that the electron sea was ‘alive’ and that plasma possessed some of the traits of living things. The debate on the existence of plasma-based life forms has been going on for more than 20 years ever since some models showed that plasma can mimic the functions of a primitive cell.”
www.mysterious-america.net...

I'm not Catholic, although I'm quite fond of the Catholic layman.

However, the late Father Balducci was a very learned man academically, with much experience concerning that which we might call "other dimensions."

Father Balducci, translated from the Italian in this video, gives a thought-provoking, and possibly first-hand account of these beings that normally lay just beyond the outer-senses of our earthly perception.

Mebbe they wink in and out of our perceptual range in the same way Constable's Critterswww.tarrdaniel.com... purportedly do.

Balducci defines his own theory of "extraterrestrials." Don't let the title throw you off, Balducci doesn't think they're demons.

Originally posted by Komodo
2nd, I do NOT agree with the idea that this phenomenon is coming from our own minds, sorry, I just can't buy this based on the fact that; if it was coming from out own minds then how is it possible that we can take pictures of these solid objects, have thousands of reports from police, commercial/military/private pilots of the same thing and some of this phenomenon is being captured on radar.

All of what you mention here, may or may not be the phenomenon itself - and we've no concrete way to discern the difference between black programs and this enigmatic other.

That they can be physical enough, to be photographed (which again doesn't say black budget or phenomenon), or be captured on radar (which again doesn't say black budget or phenomenon). None of this goes by the way of identifying the "other" we're talking about here as it relates to UFOs.

Now experience, we have a bit more to ponder. But, experience is the least viable isn't it? There's the problem. So, one has to look at what surrounds it. One consistency is ambiguity, sure...but there's also anti-structure and liminal states. These are seen across the board: UFOs, ghosts, poltergeists, etc. Now for instance the UFO phenomenon is largely looked at in a nuts and bolts sort of thing - even though we have no nut nor bolt - and originating from an extraterrestrial source. Why would an ET care if you're in a liminal state - or whether you live out of routine?

Or, is it more likely that there's more going on here than we can extrapolate? is it such a stretch to think that the collective consciousness could produce psychical, physical (on occasions) effects ranging from ghosts to UFOs and all in between? If they are manifested by us through rare circumstance, or less rare than we think - based upon thought - that's not such a radical idea. And, it accounts for the complete lack of physical evidence.

I hear the collective gasp of ATS: "You're saying this is all in our heads???" Not exactly. But what if it is thoughts escaping the bounds of a collective psyche. That makes it no less real. But you need to redefine what you mean by real. You have to concede that what you think is real is based on neurological input. All our photos, video, and so on? Based on the same neurological input to be perceived by us.

We just did an interview with Dr. Kirby Surprise (yeah that's a real name - not a 007 villain), in which he talks a lot about your question of thought form being perceived by multiple people. It's deep stuff, and not easy to get your head around - but there's something there, and once you start down that more complex way of looking at this, it makes some of your questions answerable. It also presents others that will work your brain into a lather.

And, that may be the message of the UFO: Think.

Because at that point, you're not only becoming more of a complex thinker, but you're also adding to the complexity of the phenomena.

Jeff

reply to post by jritzmann
Nice touch. Good to see you here, Jeff.

Your musings remain highly theoretical, like everyone else's, but they also remain intriguing and cutting-edge at times.

Thanks for the work Paratopia did on abductions/hypnotism...and the red-herrings such sloppy research produced. Ballsy stuff. Truth is important though.

My biggest beef with Vallee is his implication that real UFOs/Aliens are intended to help "educate" us in some way by powerful unseen forces. Like training a dog to do a trick. And the trick is apparently to modify our consciousness so we can bring a kind of half-reality to these things, or maybe eventually full reality as we understand it.

We're not dogs, and we've proven to anyone who cares that if you give us the task of learning something and show us how we can benefit from it, we'll literally bend over backwards to do it and do it much faster than it would take to learn it passively. If the aliens don't know us well enough to understand this, then you have to wonder if they have our best interests in mind (literally).

All of which leads me to think that although the appearance of UFOs might seem like it represents a learning curve, there really is no plan or guidance behind it. No mystical forces. Just a quirk of time and consciousness.

Originally posted by radkrish
Now, how about the religious people who warned of demons? Are they not correct now as far as Valle is concerned?

There's always going to be a problem with labeling. If you label the phenomenon as "demons," then you're automatically loading it up with expectations (like they're evil or tools of Satan, or whatever). If you call them "aliens," you have a different set of expectations about them.

The trick is, apparently they will conform their appearance, activities and interactions with our reality with your expectations. Label them as demons, and that's what you get. Label them as aliens, and that's also what you get.

How this works is anybody's guess. It may be similar to quantum observation, in that these things exist in a kind of indeterminate flux of virtuality until they interact with a consciousness. At that point, like a wave function collapse, they take on one characteristic or another, as defined by the observation. Either way, they move from a kind of non-existence to a kind of half-existence -- a physical thing that can scratch you, show up in a photograph, etc. And when the energy of that interface ebbs, they vanish back into non-existence.

Or something like that.

Originally posted by The GUT
I mean Stanton is a Scientist, but anyone, I believe can see the difference in degree of proficiency, publishing, actual DOD research on multiple occasions, a close association with another true Scientist (Hynek) who both after much study came to the same conclusions basically.

What I find interesting is that after many years of a completely different kind of research, primarily in abductions, researcher Budd Hopkins came to the same tentative conclusion, too. That's gotta be worth something.