Free will

Free will? I didn't think anything was free nowadays. There must be a catch or it has spyware attached.

Originally posted by rickymouse
Free will? I didn't think anything was free nowadays. There must be a catch or it has spyware attached.

That's right...

The catch is...responsibility with the will that is FREE...

Who can wrap thier brains around being personally responsible for thier own predicament?

Akushla

We are observers and so users of thought - we do not make thought.
We make choice by our set intention or attitude
Some thoughts lead us to repeat patterns, though the details may differ, the pattern is the same
Base emotions work by automatically reacting - having our buttons pressed by others, knowingly or unknowingly we are in a sense out of control. Yet we are all potentially much smarter than this and have alternative ways of thinking at our disposal
This is what makes each individual unique, intuitive and inspired.

reply to post by Iamschist
Hang on are you arguing from a free will position or one of determinism?i havent read your earlier posts but i infer from this post you are defending free will.to be honest from a fairly soft determinist approach its hard to DENY antecedal events DONT have any effect on where and who we are.Equally it would take a good man to refute outright we dont have any choice/veto/volition/will/determination over what we say,do etc,but its what we do and how do it that will determine much of what our children do and think.This is why this particular philosophical intrigue dries me nuts,

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by cuchullainuk777
oh im a circumstantial compatibilist,sort of cowardley determinist makes love to immaterialist.The problem of free will is one of those endless friggin philosophical intrigues that goes on for ever and ever and ever and ever till you make a choice,...... sorry i mean your choice is made no,...... sorry you allow a choice,...... sorry i mean a chioce is made that you choose to make to pack in the whole free will conundrum grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ok i get it im free arent i?

edit on 10-2-2012 by cuchullainuk777 because: vacillatory dysfunction

...and you have the FREE WILL to question it...total freedom, to do as you please, and then 'reap' the consequences of that FREE WILL now or at another time...to remember what choice brought you to that particular juncture, and learn not to do it again that way in future...perfect feedback loop, happening across multiple lifetimes, for a purpose.

Akushla

What if Hitler had been assasinated by Klaus Von Stauffenberg in his wolfs lair HQ.The war would have ended early millions who died would have been saved,those extra milions would have made billions more choices and decisions that would have had an enormous impact on the world and have events would differ from how the actual events panned out.People would have been born who would have contributed MORE the world would have been different there is no doubt and those differences would have affected you and me and you and me would make our choices different to what we made now.We do have freedom to make a completely arbitrary choice but those choices will have been detrmined in part by antecedent events.

reply to post by cuchullainuk777

Hang on are you arguing from a free will position or one of determinism?i havent read your earlier posts but i infer from this post you are defending free will.to be honest from a fairly soft determinist approach its hard to DENY antecedal events DONT have any effect on where and who we are.Equally it would take a good man to refute outright we dont have any choice/veto/volition/will/determination over what we say,do etc,but its what we do and how do it that will determine much of what our children do and think.This is why this particular philosophical intrigue dries me nuts,

Phew, lots of big words in there. I am arguing for free will, don't know bout hard or soft, just know truth.

Originally posted by cuchullainuk777

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by cuchullainuk777
oh im a circumstantial compatibilist,sort of cowardley determinist makes love to immaterialist.The problem of free will is one of those endless friggin philosophical intrigues that goes on for ever and ever and ever and ever till you make a choice,...... sorry i mean your choice is made no,...... sorry you allow a choice,...... sorry i mean a chioce is made that you choose to make to pack in the whole free will conundrum grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ok i get it im free arent i?

edit on 10-2-2012 by cuchullainuk777 because: vacillatory dysfunction

...and you have the FREE WILL to question it...total freedom, to do as you please, and then 'reap' the consequences of that FREE WILL now or at another time...to remember what choice brought you to that particular juncture, and learn not to do it again that way in future...perfect feedback loop, happening across multiple lifetimes, for a purpose.

Akushla

What if Hitler had been assasinated by Klaus Von Stauffenberg in his wolfs lair HQ.The war would have ended early millions who died would have been saved,those extra milions would have made billions more choices and decisions that would have had an enormous impact on the world and have events would differ from how the actual events panned out.People would have been born who would have contributed MORE the world would have been different there is no doubt and those differences would have affected you and me and you and me would make our choices different to what we made now.We do have freedom to make a completely arbitrary choice but those choices will have been detrmined in part by antecedent events.

Wringing your hands at the powerlessness of hindsight?

Somewhere, in some reality stream...this very scenario is playing out.

All possibility and probability is available...just not in the same place...

Akushla

reply to post by conlget


what u may feel is not u by definition u r having a sense of smthg else
it is up to u to ignore it or to stay still or to move through subjectively or meaning objective move from that justification

it is always getting to the same issue while it is said clearly in all constitutions and laws

ur freedom has the limit of others freedom too, but others must be understood as all else to conceive ur freedom right

so u r free where in ur mind it is only u, the conscious freedom out of all subjectively and objective all perspectives
but also it means that any is free so even a thing, but u cant b but ur freedom so anything freedom must b conceived in the recognition of all else freedom rights

a lot to think about, this was only a intro i first wanted to see a response and i found out that ill go deeper next time.

The only freedom we have is where we point our attention. We do not have any other choices. We can see and experience what is happening or we can imagine. We can spend time in our heads planning life, anticipating life and regretting life and in that way we 'choose' to be away from God.
Or we can point our attention to this moment, we can be present, here and now and walk with God.

You have the choice to be at home with God or you choose to play God.

Within this moment what choice is there? You 'think' you can choose your past now? You 'think' you can choose your future now? Now is the only 'time' you have choice! But what choices are there open to you right now?
Where is the attention pointed? Is it pointed to what is present or is it pointed toward an illusionary past or future? Is it pointed at an 'illusionary' you or the 'real' you?

If you are present with what is present then there is a response to what is happening. If you bring the past and future to what is present then reactivity will be used instead of response.
You can only ever be responsible when you are responding, when you are reactive you are not in touch with reality.

Originally posted by Iamschist
reply to post by cuchullainuk777

 

Hang on are you arguing from a free will position or one of determinism?i havent read your earlier posts but i infer from this post you are defending free will.to be honest from a fairly soft determinist approach its hard to DENY antecedal events DONT have any effect on where and who we are.Equally it would take a good man to refute outright we dont have any choice/veto/volition/will/determination over what we say,do etc,but its what we do and how do it that will determine much of what our children do and think.This is why this particular philosophical intrigue dries me nuts,

Phew, lots of big words in there.

I am arguing for free will, don't know bout hard or soft, just know truth.

Believe me on hardcore philosophical forums its another language all together looooool .If you want a really good proponent of determinism (anti free will )read Donald davidson'Mental Events'and his term'The Principle of the Nomological Character of Causality'or The many Problems of Mental Causation Jaegwon Kim,for example:
in the chapetr 'The problem of extrinsic Mental Properties (with regards to my very basic view of detrminism........
"Let us begin with Syntacticalism, the view that only "Syntactic" properties of mental states, not thier "semantic" for "content" or "representational" proporites, can be causally relevant-in particular to behaviour causation.Given the further assumption that the mentality of an important class of mental states , like beliefes and desires , consists in their semantic or represenational character , syntacticalism appears to force upon us the conclusion that the intentional proporties of mental states, the proporties that are constituive of their mentality, are causally irrelevant. But what persuades us to take syntacticalism seriously?as i said earlier the free will/determinsim intrigue has been with us for 2000 years plus it will be with us for another 2 milenia thats why im a coward and sit in between as a compatibilist which at the same time refutes both but accedes to the validity of both grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
au revoir

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by cuchullainuk777

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by cuchullainuk777
oh im a circumstantial compatibilist,sort of cowardley determinist makes love to immaterialist.The problem of free will is one of those endless friggin philosophical intrigues that goes on for ever and ever and ever and ever till you make a choice,...... sorry i mean your choice is made no,...... sorry you allow a choice,...... sorry i mean a chioce is made that you choose to make to pack in the whole free will conundrum grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ok i get it im free arent i?

edit on 10-2-2012 by cuchullainuk777 because: vacillatory dysfunction

...and you have the FREE WILL to question it...total freedom, to do as you please, and then 'reap' the consequences of that FREE WILL now or at another time...to remember what choice brought you to that particular juncture, and learn not to do it again that way in future...perfect feedback loop, happening across multiple lifetimes, for a purpose.

Akushla

What if Hitler had been assasinated by Klaus Von Stauffenberg in his wolfs lair HQ.The war would have ended early millions who died would have been saved,those extra milions would have made billions more choices and decisions that would have had an enormous impact on the world and have events would differ from how the actual events panned out.People would have been born who would have contributed MORE the world would have been different there is no doubt and those differences would have affected you and me and you and me would make our choices different to what we made now.We do have freedom to make a completely arbitrary choice but those choices will have been detrmined in part by antecedent events.

Wringing your hands at the powerlessness of hindsight?

Somewhere, in some reality stream...this very scenario is playing out.

All possibility and probability is available...just not in the same place...

Akushla

edit on 11-2-2012 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)

You subtely refering to Parallel universes?Even destiny has detrministic qualities thanks to all responders for making me get out my Phil books (im actually using my brain again looooool)makes a change form the usual philistine threads i contribute too which dont require a brain loool

reply to post by lampsalot

Well technically yes, from a purely philosophical standpoint I do reject the idea of personal responsibility. However I still think it's practical to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior (in a humane and redemptive way).

You are talking as if you had a choice about accepting or rejecting personal responsibility, "philosophically" or otherwise and about "rewarding" or "punishing" any behaviour whether practical or not.

Anyone that honestly claims to possess no freewill is merely a sophisticated animal driven by biology, even if the animal's responses to every input are not completely understood and predictable. It is absolutely silly to deny the existence of such animals around, but equally silly to attempt to prove to those animals the existence of freewill.

Freewill is a matter of experience, not deduction. Just as certain colours are not experienced by some and cannot be demonstrated to them, the existence of freewill cannot be demonstrated to those who don't experience it.

?

reply to post by akushla99


Reality is what is real, reality is not what is made up, it is not possibility and probability.
Imagination can imagine anything and it does, but reality is real.
Reality is hard to find because it is hidden behind beliefs (imagination).

The belief of 'somewhere else' and the belief in 'somewhen else' are no more than beliefs (imagination) because you will never experience anywhere but here and you will never experience any when but now.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
The only freedom we have is where we point our attention. We do not have any other choices. You have the choice to be at home with God or you choose to play God.

edit on 11-2-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

what god has to do with freedom ? when u r preaching for absolute slavery dont mean freedom then

first, freedom is not a choice, this misconception of freedom use is exclusively ur will and will by definition is what u will never have so never exist to talk about

so free will as u perceive it do not exist, but freedom absolutely exist, any word of u is an object absolute proof of ur freedom
while free will from my sense is for who assume true freedom where definitely then they can witness how free space become
to assume freedom is only to a certain standard of conscious that enjoy things really and not for what they appear to be or what others are looking superior from doing

but anyway this is another issue, the point here is that freedom is absolutely a fact while it is too a relative objective realisation of different ones

reply to post by absolutely


There is no freedom until the bars are seen.

reply to post by absolutely


i must say smthg here, that prove how meaning god is meaning being free absolutely in very wrong and evil ways, this is a fact

being free or freedom will become true existing anyone positive constant him, is exclusively through the admission that objective rights come first, while this is the opposite of god ways that everyone is copying in meaning u as being objective reason and not the opposite sense

u or anyone existing is right bc of being objective result, not in dealing with objective and realities as the result to what he is or mean or need

when u r from that way it means u r doing god ways in meaning his freedom comes first before objective dimension which belong to truth where he is killing superiority from his freedom sake as absolute fact him

this prove how meaning god is not meaning slavery, it is through truth proved meaning exclusively absolute evil freedom life ways

reply to post by Itisnowagain

There is no freedom until the bars are seen.

I was waiting for this to come up, so now we want to discuss man and superman. I am not referring to the comic book character. It can be argued that until a certain level of consciousness is reached there are no choices. I disagree, everyone can choose how they respond, choosing not to choose, is a choice. All choices have consequences and some of them stick to your face.