PEACE To attempt the impossible...

I was recently participating in a thread....

Of course it was the Middle East Forum and the usual mud slinging started back and forth between Iranian and Israeli supporters [We all know how those go - Also not the topic of this thread] then it dawned on me. Both sides were automatically going for their guns [I've done this myself] with neither side wanting to discuss the root cause of the issues between the two no PEACE.

Now on the surface we see the usual "who said what to whom and who struck Paul" aka [Missiles, Nukes, Oil, Dollars and he stepped on my sisters toe and called my mom fat] I tried having a discussion with another member.

I had proposed the following

Now, maybe if all sides started looking for and building upon on all the similarities [Very numerous] we can make some real progress, instead of focusing on the few [Really] differences and killing each other over them. Now doesn't that sound like an interesting possible beginning? Not realistic? War, Death and destruction are more realistic? Which would you prefer the world's reality to be?

I asked if they were against PEACE? They assumed I had an Agenda or was playing a game [Which I was not] It was almost impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff. I realized it couldn't be done in that thread so I took my leave.

FEAR

It seemed to me more were interested in being heard than discussion the underlying causes. I figured I'll try to start fresh here. Hopefully we can get a discussion about why they FEAR each other [Or any two] opposing sides FEAR each other. I think they fear each other for many reasons but chief among them is their two opposing views on who is more righteous. So basically their two religious views are in conflict and IMO they are Afraid of the other.

Then why else threaten their neighbors? [Not putting any blame for anything on any side! I'm just saying] So basically it appears to me that a general discussion on PEACE is almost impossible to carry out in the REAL world given REAL world circumstances without either side getting their undies in a bunch or try to prove who was first at throwing a punch or who was worse over this, that and the other.....

Is it impossible to have an impartial objective discussion about any given heated topic? I have a few guesses which I'll share here with whomever cares to discuss not Iran and Israel but the deeper human root causes for FEAR and mistrust.

I'm looking for something deeper.

The root cause in human terms
AGAIN not "Who said what to whom or who struck Paul"

edit on 9-2-2012 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

I completely agree with you. I have made a couple of threads on Peace - and people just seem to say all the reasons why we cannot have Peace rather than looking for reasons why we can have it. Star and Flag for your thread.

I would love to have peace. I fear that as long as humans exist, their cannot be peace (eternal peace).

reply to post by SLAYER69


The root cause is lack of love for our brothers....

All governments work for themselves... when they should work for the improvement of the species...

that applies to this forum as well...

reply to post by Akragon


Governments are the root cause of all human conflict? Are not Governments made up of people who may fear something to the point of war?

Fear of losing prestige, a higher profit, territory or a natural resource etc etc etc?


ETA: You've edited your original reply so now let me ask you to elaborate further please.

My take on this might not be exactly what you had in mind, but I do wish to share my thoughts, so thank you for bearing with me. I am hoping this will help start a dialogue. A calm and thoughtful one in which we can discuss problems and solutions.

I admit,I am interested in the solution. What can we do to create world peace? But I suppose in order to find a solution we must also pin point the cause. I think if you dig down to the very bottom of it all, you will find that we are looking at ourselves in the mirror. In other words, we are the cause. The individual.

The individual makes up each government, each gang, each corrupt business etc... The individual is the one who can fix the problem or make it worse.... Or even doing nothing at all.

But personally, I would love to do something. I would love to have true peace in this world.

But what can we do? What can any individual do? It seems like the answer should be so simple. But it is not, at least to me.

Take the middle east for a general example. There is so much violence over there. By our own country, by the countries over there and even by individual people.

I have always been a supporter of nonviolent resistance, but in a situation like that, we can't realistically expect to join hands, form a human chain and say "Please stop" and just expect all the problems to magically go away.

So what can we do? Sometimes as an individual I feel so helpless. I would love to help put an end to such atrocities. But what can you or I do as an individual?

That is what it comes down to, IMO. What can we do as an individual to help fix this problem?

In the short term, not much. But we can lead by example.

I can't make countries stop bombing each other but I can be the one to "turn the other cheek". I can be the one to offer a helping hand to some one I see who needs help. Even though it is only a small thing you are doing, it does make a difference and hopefully, some one will see your example and follow.

When I help some one and they respond with " How can I ever repay you?" My response is" Just pay it forward". I say this in hopes of encouraging them to do the right thing.

I know I am speaking idealistically. I don't know if anyone I ever helped did pay it forward. But I think that if perhaps enough people do these simple things and enough people pay it forward. Who knows. Maybe it will make a difference.

Maybe that's a part of the solution. Rather than trying to tackle the larger problem, we should start small and work our way up. I don't know.

I wish I did have the perfect solution. The answer. But at the end of the day, when there is only so much one person can do, I think that every little bit helps.

Start out small. Hope it catches on. Who knows, maybe it will. The way I see it, it's worth a shot. It's something different. And like I said, we really need that something different.

What say you?

Since this is in the philosophy and metaphysics category, I'll take the bait.....

There are two voices inside all of our heads. One is the ego, the other is divine. Unfortunately, we have lost touch with the divine and align ourselves with the ego, which loves to fight, scream, yell, make us feel guilty, make others feel guilty, but mostly it has to always be right. Our egos love to confuse us, make us fearful, make others fearful and just cause general havoc.

Why have we lost touch with the divine in us? good question. Not really sure, but I know we have.

So what is the answer? Try to believe there is a plan. Try to get in touch with the divine -- meditation, kindness, forgiveness are steps in the right direction. Trying to lighten up a little, having a sense of humor, realizing that everyone else is fighting the same battle helps too.

I know it's a simple concept, but nowhere near easy. But, truly consider this - do you really feel better after you have sliced someone or after you have helped them?

I believe everyone wants Peace. Call me Gullible. But I do believe that FEAR keeps Peace at bay.
Is there a price for Peace? Some may say there is.Ive heard leaders marching on country's,to establish peace on another,bringing death and destruction along the way.. Ive heard the saying "sue for Peace",so that in itself, is a conundrum. Humans have many different definitions of what peace truly is. It could be just the air blowing on a sunny day,or it could be the bombs have stopped raining down on my village for today. All in all,Peace shouldn't be the calm after the storm. I think the fear that many have is once Peace is established,the fear of whats to come,sets the human mind on a course of destabilizing it.Hope I haven't confused anyone,with my thought process....

All good answers so far I appreciate the participation. I'll wait for a few more before I start tossing in my guesses and perspective

reply to post by SLAYER69


We humans are fearful creatures. When we become afraid, we start to herd and we start to categorize and stereotype and the like.

This is a remnant of our origins in the caves and savannahs of old - intruders were dangerous.

In these "modern times", we have some kind of backwards exclusion based on fear. Example, "Oh, you don't agree with XYZ? You must be LMN." People are afraid of being labeled as LMN by their XYZ peers, and therefore, start trash talking anyone who could remotely be considered LMN. Same thing works in reverse.

Before long, you've got six generations of LMN's and six generations of XYZ's who hate each other's guts, and nobody even remembers the reason they "hate" each other.

So, the roots of our fear made sense for the world our ancestors lived in.

Our fear now is generally societal. We are ostracized for being "wrong" based on what the popular ideals of the day happen to be, even if the popular ideals seem wrong in our own minds.

Until we are able to conquer this fear of other people's thoughts, we will always have these walls of emotion blocking us, collectively, from true peace.

All you can do is plant that little seed of change. At some point, it will take root and then thrive.

Interesting approach OP. First I think the root cause of all conflict should be defined.

Organized Religions all claim themselves as being THE exclusive path yet all fail miserably in the compassion for others department. What then happened to divide mankind?

Plain and simple (and probably much consternation from half the planets population) is that in the beginning Lucifer was cast down for jealousy and vanity.

In society vanity is evident everywhere every time a woman puts on makeup ... hmmmm

Eve talked Adam into taking that bite

Abraham's wife talked him into sending Ishmael off with a mere pittance of the inheritance of which first-born were customarily entitled to it. Ishmael was run off and that anger/hatred/jealousy/revenge manifested

Mohammad went into a cave for two days and thought he was possessed and it was his wife who told him no, he had a vision from God

Woman has been looked down upon, even by today's standards in some cultures and movements that took foot-hold and empowered them into the mainstream workplace has diminished the family unit that is no longer close-knit

Children are spending more time in day-care than with the mothers, school-age continues the separation, and a working class sees it through until retirement age at which time the grand-kids are passed off onto the elderly who have little patience for diapers or bouts of me-me-me mentality.

Peace isn't something that can be coerced, bought, sold, or manipulated via agenda, it must be earned. Mankind will never have lasting Peace until men find peace and contentment within their own realm of influence.

... Hell hath no fury... sounds so cliche but if you are married you know just how much patience it takes to convince a woman of anything. Money problems are the root cause of most divorces,

Getting back to Abraham, his wife "was" barren and the first-born was via the hand-maiden (a fancy name for servant or slave) and in God's eternal wisdom he blessed his wife with child (otherwise that jealousy/rage thing would have been against the servant)

What does it all boil down to? In God's wisdom he gave us diversity to teach us acceptance but it is the woman that will be the hard-sell to accept that good looks are a fleeting moment of existence and character is by far more important. Looks fade over time while character only grows stronger.

Peace and Fear are allusions in a militarized society and the missing ingredient, the most powerful of all emotions, the emotion that ushers in harmony and serenity is love.

How many beautiful women ostracize men because they aren't the Adonis they feel they should be companion with? The shallowness of a vain creation can manifest nothing but disappointment.

Do I love my wife? Hell yes! does she listen to my better judgement? Hell no! She spends and enjoys shopping then later has to worry about paying bills. She says we used to go shopping together but when a man goes shopping it is for something and not anything (and spend a long time looking at everything) I sit in the car now and watch every car in the lot change and the objective was only a couple of items.

So it isn't so much what can bring Religions together, it is in finding that peace and contentment at home first. Look at Islam and the polygamy... any wonder why they are so ready to suicide?

I so want to believe that not all women are as depicted here and yet I will ask all the ATS women the same question, do you truly love all? If so then acceptance and Peace are an attainable goal, and yet being honest with yourselves don't you resent it when there is a "man of the house?" (Unless there is something that you want done that is...)

I say all this half tongue-in-cheek and yet reality is that I was a happier man at one time. Why are women so prone to introduce misery into the world? Why do women always have to get their way regardless of consequences? (Because a loving man will do anything for his wife)

IMO we have many languages and cultures,(to teach acceptance of each other) but the biggest culture-shock is between the sexes and that my friends is why never the 'twain shall meet. Woman made up her mind that all should be as she sees it otherwise the home-front becomes a war-front and all hell breaks loose.

... why does it always have to be too late for resolution and division becomes the operative word? Perhaps divorce is merely a reflection of where society stands on the harmony train... war is a consequence of instability , injustice, and lack of compassion.

sorry ladies, not to stereo-type any of you but in all honesty are you capable of loving all others like you love yourselves? What if all looked the same? What if brains were only in those who developed the character?

What if Peace were dependent upon keeping the Peace at home? Would those feeling love be so anxious to hurt others?

... a house divided comes to mind.

I don't know OP...

I tend to think it's more to do with hubris than it is to do with fear. Hubris (the ego) is more of a driving factor, where fear is a weapon in order to direct where our hubris wants to go.

I picture a bunch of peacocks strutting around fluffing out their feathers and driving fear into the hearts of their minions in order to accomplish their end goal... dominance... the ultimate ego trip.

Fear in my mind is a weapon, albeit a driving force, but only in the same way that the wheels on a car are driving in a certain direction. Whereas, the hubris is the one sitting behind the steering wheel doing the true directing of where those wheels are going to go.

So I guess the question is: Which came first ? The hubris ? Or the fear ?


Okay, I think I've tossed enough metaphors around for now.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Governments are the root cause of all human conflict? Are not Governments made up of people who may fear something to the point of war?

I've heard war is BIG business....

Fear of losing prestige, a higher profit, territory or a natural resource etc etc etc?

Nuu...

war is almost always political...

ETA: You've edited your original reply so now let me ask you to elaborate further please.

I just added the last line... take it as you will

Akragon just reminded me of another point I wanted to make regarding my hubris vs. fear post:

Fear of losing prestige, a higher profit, territory or a natural resource etc etc etc?

The question is... What's the driving force behind that fear of "losing prestige, a higher profit, territory, natural resources, etc etc" ?

The hubris is.

Thanks Akragon.

reply to post by CranialSponge


So Fear of losing ones home/country in a war is arrogance?
Elaborate please

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by CranialSponge

 

So Fear of losing ones home/country in a war is arrogance?
Elaborate please

edit on 9-2-2012 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

I had no idea higher profit and prestige meant home and country.

You see, the reasons behind war are many. And I'll bet most of which have absolutely nothing to do with "fear of losing home/country".

reply to post by CranialSponge


So the Vietnamese defending their country against the Japanese, French, the US then China was hubris or for profit?

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by CranialSponge

 

So the Vietnamese defending their country against the Japanese, French, the US then China was hubris or for profit?

Who came after them first, and why ?

The Vietnamese defending themselves is not arrogance.

You're not questioning the attackers... you're not looking far enough back to the starting line and what the driving factors are at that point.

Originally posted by CranialSponge
Who came after them first, and why ?

I understand that.

But that's only one side of the story.
The Vietnamese were fighting for their land and fear of losing their lives, homes and country.. When North Korea invaded the South. South Korea defended itself not for profit or arrogance but out of FEAR of being turned into a communist state. I'm not saying one side or the other in any given conflict isn't motivated by such things. But for a full complete picture there is a large amount of FEAR.

Hubris is part of it but not as large as many believe IMO

Originally posted by CranialSponge
You're not questioning the attackers... you're not looking far enough back to the starting line and what the driving factors are at that point.

You're not waiting for my replies....