Missouri teen girl gets 'life' for killing 9yr girl to 'find out what it felt like'...

Originally posted by n00bUK
My post wasnt an attack on you or anything of the sort, i just wanted to see what you had to say, and you'v delivered what you had to say very good, which made me question what i currently think

I didn't take it as an attack, and hope my responses were not perceived as such. It's an important discussion, and one that needs to be had.

ETA:

You make a good point about us having more killers if my said circumstances were the case for their behavior.

I think that what is at a person's core is what is there. Conditions or circumstance may modify how that is expressed to some extent, but the question is can it modify it enough, and can it do so in all cases?

Hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me. One day a teen is a teen, another day a child, and on odd days that end in Y an adult. Same crap with a fetus, it's just a chunk of meat if the carrier does not want it, but if a woman is killed or murdered then the ones responsible are charged with 2 deaths. We need to come together on matters like this. I hope this girl realizes what she did. AND WHO RAISED THIS GIRL? Parents need to start feeling the woes as well.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reply to post by getreadyalready

I agree. Too many people locked up that are not a threat and too many sitting on death row. Release the non-violents and let death be swift to the violents. But these private institutions called prisons are making bank with the way the laws are at this moment in time. Pretty soon everyone in America will have done time in an institution. Ron Paul for President!


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

I found out a few days ago the lady across the street had flipped out and with a shotgun threatened to kill her daughter-in-law. Turns out her medication dosage needed to be tweaked. How many people on a daily basis take their life or someone elses because of PRESCRIBED drugs-LEGAL drugs-supposedly TESTED drugs that are taken by millions day in day out. Where is government intrusion on this matter? TPTB are the ones who need to wake up, this is really getting out of hand. I quit associating with any friends who medicate daily. I absolutely DO NOT feel safe around them. I am so glad I do not let tv ads convince me I need a pill for something that has a natural cure/remedy. Must suck to be own a tv and be weak-minded.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Glass

I have taken antidepressants before, though not specifically Prozac. In my experience, the drug dulled those thoughts which were causing my depression; guilt, self-loathing, anger, etc. A quick wiki search for Prozac revealed that it is classified as a "Selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor".
(inb4 "wiki isn't credible" I really don't care about your opinion of wiki)
Basically, you're wrong; it doesn't accentuate, it inhibits.

I'm not a psychologist (though I would like to be) but I suspect that the Prozac may have inhibited a natural response of guilt and disgust that would normally proceed from having such thoughts. I know that whenever a disturbing thought pops into my head, it is my feeling of disgust at the idea that stops me from entertaining the thought.

You're right, it inhibits. This allows for latent behaviors to come to the fore. In most people, those latent tendencies are a desire to live and a desire to not be miserable over the desire to hate ones self.

In some individuals, those latent tendencies are homicidal.

Everybody's psychological attempts to 'see through' her psyche and wanting to help her blabla and comparing how imprisoning her is like throwing her in to a cage of lions is really neat.

But at the end if you were the parent of that 9 year old you all would go with the proposal of the user 'randomname'

if someone killed my 9 year old daughter they wouldn't make it past the first step of the courthouse.

And so would I.

No one here would even think about her being on pills or whatever
We should always be fair and judge as if we were the the ones that got hurt.

reply to post by n00bUK


Deal with the problem? She killed a nine year old girl and liked it. There is no helping this girl. I may get a lot of crap for what I'm about to say, but her rotting in prison is just costing us money. In my opinion, the death penalty would have been justice. There are a lot of kids with mental problems that need help. This girl is beyond any help. She is a cold-blooded killer.

reply to post by n00bUK

She will live with the guilt for eternity, probably turning the empathy into a twisted emotion just to deal with it,

Or....she won't.
I admire your having seen that your own actions were counterproductive, but that does not mean that this girl can do the same.

I understand you are young, and have extricated yourself from the 'negative' influences that may have motivated you to do what you did, and that you are remorseful. This makes you a regular youngster, who was angry, impulsive, reckless, aggressive, disrespectful of the rights of others -- who then came to realize that you would rather not live that lifestyle.

Some people are not capable of doing that. No one knows quite why, but they have NO empathy or remorse. They can be taught to behave in a sort of 'acceptable' way, maybe, but they cannot be taught 'empathy.'

I have worked as a counselor with parolees who had homicidal ideas, and I have also worked with people who were very disturbed (remorseful) at many levels by what they had done; I have known people who were charged with murder, also, who admitted they were present at the event.

There are people who for whatever reason LACK empathy, remorse, compassion, or the ability to 'imagine' what other people might feel, or the grief that they cause others.

reply to post by davesmart


If someone murdered my child I would wait an eternity and exact my own justice. Not a court in any land or any sentence given would pacify me. Ever. Any cries of 'then you are just as bad' would not make any difference.

reply to post by DoNotForgetMe


I agree, I think an investigation into the carers is worthy and responsibility/liability metted out accordingly.

As parents we have Parental Responsibility.

reply to post by Glass


Glass,
I have been reading through your posts here, and there are a couple of things I'd like to point out.

First of all, SSRIs simply increase the level of seratonin in the brain, by inhibiting the 'reuptake' process. Seratonin is essential for balanced mood. Prozac, being that class of drug, does NOT numb OR exacerbate normal feelings in the vast majority of people. A person who has been prescribed an SSRI, who was suffering from depression or anxiety, may, if they take it long enough, be relieved of much of both.

It is a common belief, and mistaken, that SSRIs 'numb' the ability to feel things. It takes the edge off of despair, but in no way does it limit the ability to feel joy, happiness, or sadness. Those emotions are all still intact if used by a person without psychosis. That does not mean that some people don't have bad reactions. Of course they do.

You don't say what antidepressant you were prescribed, so I can't comment on that.

Second of all, there are -- and have been for decades -- people who do 'study' homicidal prisoners, called 'Profilers' (forgive me if you knew that, but your posts make it sound as though you were unaware of it). The District Attorney, the defense lawyers, and the judge, would have certainly taken advantage of those 'profiler' files, as well as having this person interviewed to determine soundness of mind.

Thirdly, the system in the USA has changed; there are no longer 'state hospitals for the insane.' Those were all closed some 40 years ago. There are, of course, private hospitals that will take in residents; and there are psych wards in the prisons. There are counselors and doctors in those facilities that DO study these patients.

I appreciate completely your point, and it is a worthy and (in my opinion) correct one; that society needs to know how this sort of behavior is 'developed' to the point of action on such horrible thoughts. And they are beginning to, very slowly.

You mentioned you would like to be a 'psychologist'.. I am (was, before I retired, a practicing clinical psycho-therapist). I have been professionally close to people who worked with these types of individuals in PRISON settings, in SCHOOL settings (including myself), in HOSPITAL settings, and in clinical OUTPATIENT settings (myself again).
I have also been prescribed an SSRI for around 20 years now, and I have NEVER felt 'numb' or 'zombie-like'. No, it merely tempers the depression, stabilizes the mood. It does NOT, in most people, kill the emotional response. The longer one stays on it, the better they feel (IF it works for them in terms of having a naturally low seratonin level). Also, SSRIs can help with acute depression such as grief, or trauma-based despondency of any kind. It allows the client to regain a sense of 'normal' emotional responses as opposed to overwhelming and overpowering 'depression'.

There are new studies going on now using ketamine (an anesthetic), which works differently on the brain (specifically an NMDA receptor antagonist -- having an effect on the glutamate system) to what happens with an SSRI, and there are promising results so far that it might alleviate severe depression symptoms, but those are ONGOING, NEW studies.
For now, it is not recommended for use (ESPECIALLY if self-dosed and gotten off the streets!!) as an antidepressant, however.

Typical Americans.

Think that killing is the answer to everything.

Oh yeah another thing.

People always say 'think of the family, think of the victim's family, shouldn't they have a right to their vengeance?'. Well what if I turned that argument around. What if the murderer, what if this girl was your daughter? I bet you would be BEGGING for the system to have mercy on her.

Sometimes I think the reason people are so quick to condemn wrongdoers to death in their heart is because they really don't care much at all about people who are not their family members in the first place.

Don't worry world. American teenagers are much too stoned to commit murder very much. They sit on the couch and play video games. They know which drugs to use.

I see no one yet has touched on the fact of the girl's parents being addicts.
Do we know what sort of drugs they were addicted to? Intrauterine exposure to drugs is unquestionably a factor in the development of the fetal brain.

Even the environmental 'stressors' of the pregnant woman affect the brain. Hormones are released by environmental stressors (or conversely, environmental calm), that are the literal 'life-blood' of the fetus/child.

It's part of the process of development. If the mother is experiencing stress, her hormones are 'fed' to the fetus, whose brain then, as it develops, responds to the level of those hormones as a gauge, or indicator, of the environment in which they are going to be born.

A drug addict is messing with their brains and hormones, these messes will be visited upon the child. Depending on the substance, the effects will differ.

Also, there is the issue of 'attachment disorder' immediately after birth. If an infant is not met with loving arms, eye-contact, mutual gazing, and care....but instead treated coldly and as an object, their brains will 'shut down' the 'attachment' bit. They become unable to respond, or to offer, affection. They are unable to experience empathy, compassion, fondness, remorse..... they are 'numb' to others.

At least, that's the theory. No one really knows for sure, though.

see the early childhood of Ted Kazinsky...the Unabomber.

Originally posted by wildtimes
I see no one yet has touched on the fact of the girl's parents being addicts.
Do we know what sort of drugs they were addicted to? Intrauterine exposure to drugs is unquestionably a factor in the development of the fetal brain.

Even the environmental 'stressors' of the pregnant woman affect the brain. Hormones are released by environmental stressors (or conversely, environmental calm), that are the literal 'life-blood' of the fetus/child.

It's part of the process of development. If the mother is experiencing stress, her hormones are 'fed' to the fetus, whose brain then, as it develops, responds to the level of those hormones as a gauge, or indicator, of the environment in which they are going to be born.

A drug addict is messing with their brains and hormones, these messes will be visited upon the child. Depending on the substance, the effects will differ.

Also, there is the issue of 'attachment disorder' immediately after birth. If an infant is not met with loving arms, eye-contact, mutual gazing, and care....but instead treated coldly and as an object, their brains will 'shut down' the 'attachment' bit. They become unable to respond, or to offer, affection. They are unable to experience empathy, compassion, fondness, remorse..... they are 'numb' to others.

At least, that's the theory. No one really knows for sure, though.

see the early childhood of Ted Kazinsky...the Unabomber.

Also maybe her parents are violent and have homicidal tendencies as well, maybe she is just more or less emulating what she considers normal.

People want the easy out of just killing her, because it's the popular thing to want. But shouldn't we be a little bit more forgiving?

That's why the part saying people need human rights when they face the court even if they are criminals, murderers, have taken 1, 2, 30, 50 lives..

You and your silly human rights. Right now the prisons could have been emptied from some prisoners - by death penalty for all meant murderers who realized what they were doing and even being crazy/mentally ill shouldn't be treated as an excuse for killing.

And then prisons could be taken by those corrupted, while they have commited crimes of such kind it is not like taking out a human life. So free the prisons from murders, put the corrupted and non-murderer criminals in the prisons

And some of the population would get emptier..

reply to post by lampsalot


Well, if she was abandoned by her birth parents, that 'normal' wouldn't have had an influence in terms of 'exemplary behavior.'

It is definitely to be considered that if they were homicidal maniacs, whatever was wrong with them could have been inherited by her....
we just really don't know.

But shouldn't we be a little bit more forgiving?

We should CERTAINLY be more concerned with how this sort of behavior is motivated. Nevertheless, we should also be concerned with the ramifications of the causes of such behavior. 'Forgiveness' is such a nebulous term.

We should 'forgive' a youngster who chose, planned, plotted, prepared, and executed this act?
Hmmm....
Not sure I can agree with that.
Attempt to understand it? SURE. Attempt to isolate and delineate the source of the behavior? YES.
But.....to say, "Okay, it's all right, run along now!", well, that's a bit naive.

Originally posted by Imtor
That's why the part saying people need human rights when they face the court even if they are criminals, murderers, have taken 1, 2, 30, 50 lives..

You and your silly human rights. Right now the prisons could have been emptied from some prisoners - by death penalty for all meant murderers who realized what they were doing and even being crazy/mentally ill shouldn't be treated as an excuse for killing.

And then prisons could be taken by those corrupted, while they have commited crimes of such kind it is not like taking out a human life. So free the prisons from murders, put the corrupted and non-murderer criminals in the prisons

And some of the population would get emptier..

Well maybe you deserve to be executed too. You pay taxes right? So you are supporting murder of people in the Middle East.

reply to post by wildtimes


I'm sorry, and I know you have a lot of training in the field, but what you state is somewhat misleading. Taking the extreme highs and lows off of an emotion is limiting the emotion. There is a certain numbness associated with leveling the effects of emotional response.

I saw my wife completely misdiagnosed repeatedly, and a family practitioner change her anti-depressents wildly, with no regard for the ramp up and ramp down and drug interactions. She had some mild depression over a disappointment in not getting into law school, and a half-ass doctor turned it into a life and death struggle that cost her a marriage and nearly cost her career, and on at least 2 occasions her life!

The drugs made her unconcerned with any repercussions of her actions, and even though she wasn't suicidal, she started partaking in risky behavior that almost killed her through alcohol blackouts, poisoning, and a car accident.

Brain chemistry altering drugs are extremely dangerous, and they are tossed around like candy! Doctors do not do their due diligence in researching the drugs before prescribing, and they have no idea how each patient may react differently and uniquely, and they do not provide the constant care required to make the drugs safe and effective.

Even something simple like alcohol will make people do things they later regret, imagine the extremely more severe effects of a prescription drug specifically designed to make people feel things less intensely. Imagine what someone predisposed to violence can do when they are under the influence of a strong medication specifically designed to limit extremes in their emotional state. Alcoholics are often far more violent when drinking, this is a well-documented fact and the cause of many domestic disputes and even murders. Surely you would agree that a prescription drug specifically designed in a similar manner could be far more damaging to one's psyche than mere alcohol. Surely you can agree it has a factor in these cases.