The Jewish and Jesus. Why didn't "they" believe

AH - finally the Truth about Christianity comes out:

Quote: "Chrisitanity is mostly a Pagan, Heathen Religion (Rituals) composed of other bastardized cults of old..."

Thank God(s) -> And I wouldn't have it any other way, Ha, Ha, Ha!!!

[edit on 21-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

You all seem to forget that the 12 diciples were jews.

The high priests didn't believe in Him simply because they were jealous and very self righteous.

Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them. Mathew 13:14,15

Hi ROSEBEFORETIME:

The Sons of Zadok (Sadduccees or "Tsaddukim") after 104BC began to call themselves "Kings" thereby allowing the Levetical Sadducean Priesthood replace/usurp the blood-line kings in exile since 430 BC (i.e. since Zerubabbel) aka the DAVIDDS who were waiting in the wings to sieze the throne of "their father David" back----which is precisely what R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Iesous" in the Greek) was doing----waiting for the right moment to strike

He was purported to be filled with END OF DAYS messaging:

"These be the Days of Vengeance of our god...The TIMES OF THE GOYIM ARE FULFILLED (refers to the saying of Moses which basically means "we're taking the promised land from the Amorites" which occurs in the Torah--in Jesus' case, it means TAKING BACK THE LAND OF ISRAEL FROM THE ROMANS)--repent now before it is too late ! THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS APPROACHING, BELIEVE THE GOOD NEWS !!) etc.

Herod (and his ancestors after 104 BC when his great grandfather was forcibly converted to Judaeism in Idumaea) MARRIED INTO THE LEVETICAL HASMONEAN FAMILY to solidify his claim to the throne. ("Hashmonean" is the Saduccean name for the sons of Matathias Ben Hasmon who led an armed revolt against Syrian Greeks in 167 BC : i.e. the Chanukkah "retaking" of the Jerusalemite temple, i.e. the Macabbean Revolt----etc. Matathia's sons were called SONS OF THE HAMMER (i.e. Macabbees) and a few survived to reign as high priests and later called themselves kings after John Hyrcanus time in 104 BC.

The DAVIDDIC BLOOD OF R. YEHOSHUA bar YOSEF the "northern" Galilean would have been a DIRECT THREAT to the Saduccean heirarchy in "southern" Jerusalem.

They based their power on the Macabbean Revolt Kingly Line (Hasmonean) whereas "Iesous" based his own claims to the throne of Israel on his blood line.

Rome appointed these Zadokites to their power base, and Rome also didn't want any Daviddic pretenders running about gathering up common people to a common Messianic revolt against the Majesty of the Divine Tiberius...so they too wanted the Davidds out of the way.

So both Rome and the Saduccees went out of their way to get rid of him and his entire family..this might account for the "Messianic Secret" in Mark's gospel ("Tell no man who I am") or in John's ("my hour hath not yet come")...

Even the crucifixion narratives (midrashic legends though they are) show that both the Saduccean Priesthood and the Romans were jointnly plotting to put this man out of his misery....

Another History lesson.....sorry I have to keep repeating myself on these threads...but some people never learn anything, it seems !

Wow Amadeus - You Certainly know your History & Theology of the Judaic & Christian Religions!!! Did you Study this a Lot in School? Are you a Professional Historian or Theologian?

Question: Syrian Greeks = "Samaritans" no?

What do you think of St. Paul? If you ask me (after doing some Skeptical Research)
St. Paul was the Originator of the Christian/Catholic Religion that I was brought up in as a Child. I believe that it is actually called
"Pauline Christianity" (the Roman Catholic Church later assimilated it) - it is quite different than some of the more Orthodox Flavors of Christianity that I have encountered. I think that St. Paul was a Genius in terms of his Realization that in order for this Fledgling Religion of Christianity to truly succeed - the Message of
"Jesus Christ" (in what ever language) needed to be brought to the "Gentile" Greeks & Romans & Byzantines!!! Work with the situation - don't Force the Gentiles into Circumcision & so on. As we all know the Early Judeo Centric Christians were later Crushed. If it wasn't for St. Paul's Mission we probably would not have Christianity in the world today!!!


[edit on 21-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Hi Serpahim Serpente:

You are correct in assuming that modern Chrsitianity as it is understoond and practiced today (mainstream) is essentially "Ppauline" Christianity (who put such emphasis on faith alone as a way to "salvation") and not the "Nazorean" Christianity of James, the "brother of Iesous" (who was torah abiding---like "iesous" himself, and also did not like Gentiles, and put far more emphasis on "works") etc.

There was a large and violent rift in the early Church between the Ieous-founded Nazorean Torah Abiding "Judaeising" churches in Palestine and perhaps also in Antioch--more like Messianic Synagogues than a modern Church, actually (the organization was quickly taken over by James the brother of "iesous" after the crucifxion based SOLEY on his Daviddic bloodline---notice, JAMES was NOT a disciple !) and the Greek Diaspora "churches"founded by Paul who allowed Gentiles into the fold without circumcision or kahrut laws, something the brother of "iesous" would have never allowed (read Acts chapter 15, but compare it to a more accurate "first hand" document desribing the tension between the two groups, Galatians chapter 2 !!!)

And of course, Paul, even though he claimed to be an Apostle for some reason, again and again (but if you ask me, methinks that lady doth protest waaaay too much) and as you may have guessed, never once met R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Iesous") in the flesh (only in dreams and visions, like my cook, come to think about it...) and fought bitterly with the "Nazorean" family of "Iesous" (i.e. R. Yakkov bar Yosef ha Tsaddiq, or "James the Just") and Shimeon bar Yonah ha Kephah ("Simon Peter").

Paul (or Saul of Tarsus) was born in the capital of Cilicia which was the point where the pagan Mithraic Mysteries entered the Roman Empire and also was the home of Stoic Philosophy. No wonder he was so gentile-friendly and fought with those who were more conservative towards mingling with the goyim.

Paul's churches survived the Jewish War of AD 66-72 and 135-138 AD mainly because they were PHYSICALLY located away from the War in Palestine (safely tucked away in port cities like Corinth or Galatia or Thessalonika or Ephesus etc.): the anti Gentile churches founded by the relatives of "Iesous" and his disciples (i.e. the Nazorean church who still held to the Torah Law) were closer to home in Palestine (e.g. Jerusalem and in the Galilee) and were virtually wiped out during the war of rebellion and in the 20 years of supression of Messianic tendencies in Palestine which led up to it.

So only Pauline type "gentile friendly" Christianity lived to reproduce, whereas the Nazorean church became virtually extinct, despite emmisaries being sent to Rome demanding that the relatives of the family of Iesous be put in charge after 135 AD (they were sent back home).

So what we have today is Paul's idea of a man whom he never met, whose writings we possess in part (some like the Pastorals were forged in his name) whereas we have only one (re-formed Greek translation) letter of James (epistle) the Just and possibly one short scrap from another Brother of Iesous ("Judah the Twin" or Judah-Tomah, aka "Didymos-Thomas" in the book of Jude)---but not much else in the NT canon from any eyewitnesses to the Galilean Rabbi himself (the gospels are all next generation docs from after 80 AD and none were written by eyewitnesses in their present form)...

Most Christians are acutely unaware of their own history I'm afraid....more's the pity !!

OK so Amadeus - I have another question & you are just the right person to answer it. Supposedly Judaism is Monotheistic - but I have run into at least 3 Gods
-> YaHVeH, ELohim & BAAL. Can you explain their Relationship too me? It seems as if Judaism way Originally Polytheistic - but eventually
"One God" (YaHVeH) won out & it became Monotheistic. There is a Strong "Pagan" Sumerian/Zoroastrian/Persian & Babylonian influence here isn't there! I think that I read somewhere on the Web that ELohim is the actual God (or Gods Plural) of Abraham & YaHVeH was the God of Moses - which is strange because I just got reading on another thread that Moses was really an Egyptian - not really an Israelite Jew. Or that the story of Moses was based on the story of Gilgamesh! I have also Read that Abraham was really a Sumerian (from UR) - not really an Israelite Jew. The Hebrew Scriptures seem really inconsistent to me!

It is all very well when we have a lot of knowledge in our heads but sad when there is none in our hearts.

To tell you the truth I couldn't care less what history you know. I am a christian, which means a follower of Christ and His teachings.

Elohim is plural for God which means the trinity. Just as we have an egg composed of three parts yet still one egg.

God had many names but none of them was Baal. And He didn't agree with worshipping any pagan gods. Why do you think the Israelites got themselves into so much trouble.

The gospel of Mathew was attributed to Mathew the tax collecter by the 1st century church. Who walked with Jesus. Also Mark was written around
AD 67 and he was a good friend of Peter so I am sure that he would have good accounts of Jesus' teachings.

Any way when you believe in a supernatural God, you know that it is possible for Him to make sure that the truth has been recorded. The miracle is that the bible is still around today. And if we open our hearts and minds it is powerful unto salvation.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
*"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding
of the prudent." 1Corinthians 1:18,19 *Isaiah29:14
[edit on 22-9-2004 by rosebeforetime]

[edit on 22-9-2004 by rosebeforetime]

From Seraphim-Serpente : QUOTE : �OK so Amadeus � I have another question & you are just the right person to answer it. Supposedly Judaism is Monotheistic - but I have run into at least 3 Gods = Yahweh, Elohim & Baal.

Can you explain their Relationship to me? It seems as if Judaism was originally �Polytheistic� - but eventually "One God" (YaHVeH) won out & it became Monotheistic. � UNQUOTE

Hi Seraphim-Serpente:

You�re actually quite right about the �polytheism to monotheism� trend in Israelite religion.

There can be seen definite signs of �religious development� in the �bible� if the texts are arranged chronologically (based on linguistic determinatives e.g. certain key expressions etc.) but this subject is a little too complex to be treated as necessarily briefly as it must do on any discussion thread: but here goes nothing�as they say.

First you have to divide the history of �Judaeism� (more like Judaeisms !) very broadly into four distinct periods,

l. the Pre-exilic period (BC 1200 to BC 587),
2. the Exilic period of the Babylonian Exile (BC 587 to BC 480)
3. the Post Exilic-2nd Temple Period (BC 480 to AD 70)
4. and the Post Jerusalem Destruction �Rabbinnic� Period (AD 70 to the present= this last period can easily be sub-divided into about 10 sub-sections !)


It is clear than in the preExilic period (BC 1250 to BC 531) , the area known as Judaea and Israel (i.e.Canaan) had at least 30 different cult centers, each with its own distinct priesthoods and different Canaanite local clan-gods (e.g. Baal-Berit, Baal-Hayyim, Baylith, El, El-Elyon, YHWH, Asherah, El-Shaddai, etc.) the largest collectioin of sites being in the northern Kingdom of Israel in the socalled Highlands.

Only with the dissolution of the northern kingdom in 721BC to 701 BC with the Assyrian Invasions did some kind of consolidation take place with the priests running for their lives southwards to Judaea from the north�along with the general population, effectively muiltiplying the Judaean population by 8 times in 20 years .

To get a clearer picture of the science behind all of these findings, take a look at THE BIBLE UNEARTHED by Israel Finklestein (the Regens Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silbermann.

This book is written for the layman and gives you a rough glimpse as to how the early northern �polytheistic� preExilic Canaanite cult-temples started to get melded into the later ones, e.g. the smallish cult of YHWH (KJV: THE LORD) later blended in with the other larger cult of the Canannite high clan-god EL (KJV: �GOD�) and were often blended in with wives such as �YHWH and his Asherah� became the cult of YHWH-ELOHIM (�THE LORD GOD�) after 701 BC.

The relationship between these gods changed from temple to temple and from town to town. Canaan was built on the city-state model with each town being its own kingdom of sorts with its own local clan god to take care of the local people�s needs and with its own priesthood.

In some of these shrines, it is EL who is the High God (e.g. in Deuteronomy 34 where EL is greater than YHWH in the division of the world into 70 �nations� each with its own clan-god to protect them); YHWH is seen as his son in a few of these and in others it is BAAL who is seen as the son of EL. Other mountain shrines seem to be dedicated to Asherah alone (especially the groves which were open-air) etc.

Also:

See if you can get a book called WHO WROTE THE BIBLE? by Richard Eliot Friedman (a student of Frank Moore Cross of Harvard)�

He lists (for the layman) in his Appendix in the back of the book many of the different strands/blocks of separate and distinct legal historical traditions in the Torah from both NORTHERN and SOUTHERN CULT CENTERS,:

Using his breakdown (the socalled Graf Wellhausen Hypothesis of 1883) you can then use 5 different coloured highlighters to colour-in the sources of the Biblical Texts in your copy of the Bible to see at a glance all the different blocks of source material from the different periods (it really helps to do this !):

These two books would be essential reading to get started in on the good stuff.

But here�s some general background:

Each of these 4 �periods� listed above showed a different development in theology from each other from various local tribal clan gods YHWH , CHEMOSH, MOLECH, BAAL, ASHERAH , EL, etc. to the eventual MONOTHEISTIC POST EXILIC CLAN GOD YHWH who eventually was regarded as a Universal Deity�with power even over other nations (this was not the case early on).


But the pre-Exilic �unconsolidated� polytheistic Canaanite cult centers (especially in the north in places like Gilgal, Beth-El, Hazor, Megiddo, Dan, Shechem, Shiloah etc.) and their various belief systems of the pre-Exilic period were VASTLY different from the later POST EXILIC �post consolidation� Yahwistic belief which was more centralized (thanks to King Josiah�s reform in 621 BC) who centered all the straggling local at Jerusalem: and the later 2nd temple period belief system which surrounded the 2nd Temple Sacrificial System, was VASTLY different from the belief systems in the later post-Jerusalem-destruction Rabinnic period. Etc.

It is difficult to speak of Judaeism in any recogniseable form.

All this development is reflected in a pile of contradictory material that Ezra inherited around 430 BC and tried to smooth out---but pressures from certain traditional scribal groups made him leave a good deal of the material in tact and only edited with a phrase here and there to help the flow.

The fact that Ezra did not cut deep enough in the fabric of the text is the main reason why the �bible�as we have it today in the OT is so full of contradictory notions�but scholars are thankful that he did not completely re-write it IN TOTO, otherwise biblical textual source critical scholars would have never have been able to find the �seams in the material� which exist today between many of the separate the traditions--- in order to put them in the right periods. Sort of like a sloppy dressmaker who does not know how to hide the patches. Ugly to look at, but at least we can see where the patches are�!

I say �Judaeisms� (in the plural) for a reason.

If you read pre-Exilic writings (like PROTO ISAIAH chapters 1-39 and the book of Amos and Hosea, you get one type of �theology� of Judaeism) if you read post-exilic writings (like Deuteronomy or the book of Jeremiah and Hezekiel) you get ANOTHER theology of Judaeism where YHWH is more of a creator god, and more transcendant, and affects other nations as well as Israel; if you read the later 2nd Temple period writings (e.g. Ezra-Nehemiah, Daniel 7-12, Qoheleth/Ecclesiastes, the prose sections of Job, Genesis chapter 2:4b-4:34, or TRITO Isaiah (i.e. Isaiah chapters 56-66) you get a THIRD Judaeism theology type where YHWH is even more transcendant (in the dark brooding outlook of the writer of Ecclesiastes sometime in around 165 BC (late proto Mishnaic Hebrew) YHWH hardly exists at all!).

You also must look at the way �Judaeism� was practiced by location broken into two main halves Palestinian Judaiesm (where they had a Temple Sacrificial System and priests), and (non Palestinian) Diaspora Judaiasm. (where there were no priests, but rather scribes and teachers like Rabbis who places more emphasis on prayer and books and less on blood temple sacrifice, since Diaspora Judaiasm did not possess a temple and people living abroad if they made a sacrifice in the post exilic period would have to come to Jerusalem to perform it).

There were 24 Priestly families that were deported into Babylon after 587 BC (the �Babylonian Capitivity�) : most of the non-hard liners (or perhaps they did not get along with the Yahwistic monotheists?) chose to stayed put in Babylon even after Cyrus (�my Messiah� see Isaiah 45:1) sent them back to Palestine:

The non hardliner priestly families had apparently settled and rooted themselves in their new home on the Euphrates, many �changing jobs�by converting to the worship of the Babylonian clan god Marduk and other local Babylonian gods (well�a priest is a priest, at any rate, and work is work) and never returned back home.

Other priestly groups still in Exile in Babylon chose to stay behind for other reasons but kept the worship of YHWH alive and well in synagogue-like communities despite the fact they had no true temple, and chose to not return to Palestine.

(When Rome finally destroyed Judaea in AD 70 it was the later descendants of this Babylonian Jewish Community (e.g. Hillel II) who were the ones who were strong enough to return to the council at Jamnia/Javneh in AD 90 and bark orders as to what books of the Old Testament should �defile the hands� i.e. should be regarded as holy scripture.

Essentially what is in the Bible today post Javneh-Jamnia is based on canon decisions from Babylonian Rebbes (which is why the book of Esther etc. was included) and explains why the socalled Masoretic Text (which is a Babylonian family text) was chosen as the received �official� text family among so many floating around in AD 90:

There was the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Dead Sea Scroll copies, the Vorlage to the Greek LXX, the proto-Pe#ta etc. but only ONE version survived into modern day Rabinnic Judaesm: the Masoretic Text of AD 940 which had been preserved in Leningrad.

BUT UNTIL AD 90 (60 years after the DEATH OF �IESOUS�) THE JEWS DID NOT HAVE A FIXED CANON OF THE BIBLE �which explains why the Dead Sea Scrolls (BC 167 to AD 68) contain so much non-biblical material which the Community at Qumran believed was still scriptural and �inspired by YHWH� i.e. authoritative

(e.g. I Henoch, Jubilees, The Testaments of the 12, the Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus=the Wisdom of Ben Sirach, the Assumption of Moses etc.)

Because Jewish scriptures (the Tanakh as a whole) were not entirely fixed until very late in their history (i.e. until after AD 90) this might have contributed to the hotchpotch of mixed and contradictory theological ideas in the texts (they did not conform the text to any fixed standard early on); thus in preExilic writings, YHWH creates good and evil (e.g. proto-Isaiah chapters 1-39 or as it says in the book of Amos) without Satan.

Ditto for the older Poetic sections for the Elamite book of Job which uses ELOAH for the name of the god (also: notice that the prose sections are the only parts of Job which mention YHWH and the idea of an Adversary or Accuser/Shaitan, = found in Job chapters 1 & 2 and the last paragraph)

The main political religious targets of this massive �deportation� were mainly all Israelite-Judean metal workers and anyone who could read and write (and thereby foster a counter revolution) who were basically the sofrim (scribes) and priestly classes.

These 24 priestly families were NOT ALL MONOTHEISTIC butof these 24 deportees, only 4 (FOUR) of these priestly families came back to Eretz Yisra�el (c. 520-500 BC) and these 4 families were ALL HARD CORE YAHWHISTIC MONOTHEISTS, who sat down and re-wrote the scriptures in the light of the Capitivity which was then reworked by Ezra the Scribe who was a monotheist-Yahwist...

(hence we can detect all the anti northern �polytheistic� bias and pro-monotheistic slant in the books of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I-II Samuel and I-II Kings) these books denigrated Asherah and the Baalim and relegated as �daemons� all other gods other than YHWH which had been previously worshipped in Palestine before the Exile :

They came up with their own slogan and put it into the mouth of Moses in Deuteronomy chapter 6 in late post Exilic Hebrew, aka the Shema� (�hear�)

�Hear O Yisra�el, YHWH is our clan-god, YHWH alone.�
(i.e. no other clan-gods but YHWH from now on...)

(the English translations of the socalled Shema� generally try to hide this meaning, and translate it somewhat lamely as �HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD THE LORD IS ONE� which of course makes no grammatical sense at all.

Also it is evident that many psalms in the OT were originally written to honour Baal and other Canaanite gods (e.g. Psalms 29) where the name Baal has been crossed out and the name of the god YHWH put in its place (Psalm 29:1 Habu Baal Benei Elim = notice the b b b poetical alliteration in Psalm 29:1 later became Yahwised into: Habu YHWH Bene Elim, totally obliterating the poetical b-b-b- alliteration, etc. )


QUOTE

There is a Strong "Pagan" Sumerian/Zoroastrian/Persian & Babylonian influence here isn't there!

UNQUOTE

Yes there is indeed.

2nd Temple �monotheistic� Judaiesm (after 531 BC) was a very different animal from the pre-Exilic religions of the Jews.

The Bible in its present form is a hotch potch of old and new ideas: the revisions of Ezra around 430 BC was heavily influenced by Zoroastrian Persian thought during the socalled PERSIAN PERIOD but still retained (political pressure?) many traces of the earlier pre Exilic religion (they did not completely re-write their history, but preserved bits of tradition which betray this earlier period:

POINT OF FACT: for roughly 200 years (BETWEEN 531BC and 331BC ) Palestine/Judaea was physically occupied and militarily controlled by Persians introducing PERSIAN-ZOROASTRIAN Persian ideas e.g. the Pharasim (P R S= Pharissee, v. P R S = Persian) the concept of the Resurrection of the righteous dead at the Last Day Judgment, the concept of SHAITAN (Satanas) a term which used to be used for the Philistines etc. (shatainim : �enemies�), and various DUALISTIC ideas (light v. dark, righteous v. wicked, life v. death, angels v. daemons, YHWH v. Shaitan etc.)

That may explain why Persian Wise Men (Magoi) appear in the Matthew birth narrative!
Is this comprehensible so far, or do you want me to stop ?

Let me know if you want more...

Wow - Fantastic! Thanks a lot Amadeus - you are the Best!
I don't need any more!

All of the people out there - please understand this - Amadeus is
TELLING THE TRUTH!!!

It is easy to Understand how Christianity Developed if you look at it from the above perspective.

It is also easy to understand why some felt that JESUS HIMSELF was a Heretic at the time!!! Outstanding - keep up the good work!

Isn't it just simpler to pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance in such spiritual matters? If you ask with a sincere heart, he will guide you and show you the truth. All the knowledge in the world about Christ and His Father will not get a non- believer to believe and it won't get you into Heaven. The truth is only manifested through the Holy Ghost. Man, I just feel sorry for those who call evil; good and good; evil. But I am not the Judge. I have sins that I must purge. To claim that one is free from sin is showing ignorance. The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah, because The Father in Heaven knew they would. Jesus needed to be born among the Jews so he may be crucified for everyone's sake. Only through Him can we get into the Father's Kingdom. Not to believe in Him is damning your own soul. Will Jesus be the bigot if one is told by him that they're going to hell? We've all been given the instructions to study so that we may enter into the Kingdom of God. Are we going to use them wisely? Hell, I can assure you will not be no walk in the park. I've been lambasted and ridiculed for my beliefs, but I'll hold on to them. We'll all know the truth one day, and the non-believers shall also know, yet their rejection here is what they're going to be judged on. They have their chance, and it's the only chance they'll have. That is what's so sad about the whole world in general. Their failure to believe and have faith.

Originally posted by LadyV
The Jewish and Jesus. Why didn't "they" believe

It's simple. They wanted a Messiah that would defeat their enemies
They didn't understand that you must be a good man
They didn't understand in what way should the man change

Sorry people - I posted an erroneous message that didn't belong on this thread - I sent out a U2U instead!

[edit on 26-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Athiex - I couldn't help but notice your Avatar! I know that I should probably start another thread or send you a U2U - But who do you believe is the "They" that Attacked us on 9/11? Obviously it was a Terrorist Act so don't just say "The Terrorists"!

I don't understand...
What do you want?
What are you talking about?
BTW my nickname is AtheiX not Athiex

In the words of Brittany Spears - woops I did it again - sorry - I learned my lesson - please continue with the Jesus & the Jews debate!


[edit on 26-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

/applaude Amadeus

very nice posts. anyone who mentions the sons of zadok gets an A++ from me

one question that always interested my was why Paul was 'allowed' to persecute christians as far from home as Damascus? Seems that it would normally be out of his jurisdiction. another interesting thing I've heard is that if Jesus was ACTUALLY the king of the jews (line of David) then it would explain his treatment as a political dissident as well as other strange facts (ie, why would Pilate release a crucified body to the family?) er.. Joseph of Arimethea

Also, for those who are from all of thise, remember that the philosophy (mainly the sermon on the mount) of Jesus is interesting in itself (semi-eastern/epicurean/stoic). Don't believe all the nonsense Paul and tradition has added on top. Jesus appears to be a Jewish reformist with a tendency towards essene thought. If anything he is more of a bodhisattva than a messiah.

Hi EvilMeow (by the way, I like your moniker)

Ref your QUOTE:

"One question that always interested my was why Paul was 'allowed' to persecute christians as far from home as Damascus?
Seems that it would normally be out of his jurisdiction..." UNQUOTE

Actually, you are quite right about that. Check out the book THE MYTHMAKER: PAUL AND THE INVENTION OF CHRISTIANITY (by Hyam Maccoby, who is a 2nd Temple Rabinnic scholar): it goes into some of the legalistic limitations about Paul's arrest warrants.

Certainly, we know that the term �DAMASCUS� was often used as a coded word by the 1st century BC/AD Dead Sea Scroll Community ("the Sons of Light") for the ancient site of Secaccah (which is what is called QUMRAN today---the Dead Sea Scroll Monastery on the cliff, which is the same site where all those Rock caves near Jericho)...

The people who wrote and copied out the Dead Sea Scroll material called themselves (among 22 other titles) the �Followers of the Way (!) in the Land of Damascus� -- but they clearly meant the "Wilderness of Judaea" when they used the term �Damascus� ---and not the present day capital of Syria which would have indeed been out of the High Priest of Jerusalem�s official legal jurisdiction to send Saul of Tarsus out on arrest warrants etc�

At other times they would use the term "Jerusalems" in the plural to denote their Monastery at Qumran as somhow representing the �purified Holy Jerusalem� as opposed to the �polluted and defiled� Jerusalem (which is always referred to in the singular) 14 miles away from which their Teacher of Righteouness had broken off with some of his priestly Zadokite followers some time in the 150s BC. (see the 4QMMT document entitled "Miqsat Ma-aseh haTorah": some Precepts of the Torah--which outlines the 22 ritual reasons why they split off from the Jersualem cult)

Two hundred years after the �Teacher� founded the Qumran sect, (i.e. some time around AD 40) it seems that several Judaean groups of different Messianic Last Days Apocalyptic Jews who later became �Nazorean Christians� between AD 36 and AD 68 came into close PHYSCIAL contact with the then-still standing Dead Sea Scroll Community and shared their Apocalyptic World of Ideas (i.e. both groups had a common cause and clearly spoke the same coded Apocalyptic Last Days Language, and read the same kinds of books: here are some of their terms they had in common: These are the Last Days, The Doctrine of the Two Ways (Narrow Ways of Life and the Broad Ways of Death), the Followers of The Way, To prepare for the Messiah of Israel, The Elect of the House of Israel, The Sons of Truth, Sons of Belial, Thy Will be Done, The Times of the Regeneration, as it was in the Days of Noah, the Son of Man, For thine is the Power and the Glory, These be the Days of Vengeance, lead us NOT into Temptation, Kingdom of God, Resurrection of the Dead, Gifts of the Holy Spirit, The Book of Life, �The Sons of light� follow the Will of the Most High, Repent and Believe the good News, and hundreds of others etc. etc) .

Saul of Tarsus (who called himself a Roman Citizen!) was being sent by the pro-Roman and then-High Priest in Jerusalem (like Herod, they were part of the LEVETICAL Hashmonean Maccabee family who were hand-appointed by ROME) to grab and arrest (and execute) IN THE QUMRAN AREA (which he and the book of Acts called "DAMASCUS" using the Qumran Code Word) certain anti-Hashmonean �Daviddic-Messianic minded Jews� who were hiding out there (no doubt in sympathy with the locals) but were beign arrested because they were ACTIVELY supporting a different AND RIVAL blood line to take over the Kingdom of Judaea i.e. a NON LEVIETICAL (Daviddic) Messiah-figure like Iesous had been whom they had recently arranged to have rubbed out and executed for armed sedition).

All of this happened around a 1st CENTURY MESSIANIC TIMETABLE OF SORTS, such as outlined in the Book of Jubilees when YHWH would swoop down and send in his Messiah to destroy the Gentile Invaders--- i.e. the 100th anniversary ( 2 Jubilees) of the Invasion of Judaea by the Romans (Pompey, 63 BC) :

This Roman Invasion �shock� came after nearly exactly 100 years of semi-Independence (163 BC to 63BC) under the Macabees since the �revolt� around the socalled Channukkah event when the Temple was re-taken by the Judaeans from Syrian Greeks (�the 3 and � years of the Abomination of Desolation� spoken about by Daniel written in 167 BC).

Here�s your other QUOTE:

"Another interesting thing I've heard is that if Jesus was ACTUALLY the king of the Jews (line of David) then it would explain his treatment as a political dissident as well as other strange facts (ie, why would Pilate release a crucified body to the family?) er.. Joseph of Arimethea" UNQUOTE

You�ve made some very good points here.

Pilate in John�s Passion Narrative Section in his Gospel allegedly stated the words: ECCE HOMO (Latin for �Behold the Man�) which is actually a taunt-quote from Zechariah 5:9 �BEHOLD THE MAN WHO IS CALLED THE NAZIR (�the branch of David�) He shall REBUILD THE TEMPLE OF YHWH �

The Praefect of Judaea was here making sport of �their King�: in other words, he was taunting the crowd with �Iesous� saying something equivalent to �Take a good hard look at him, people, look at the man you believed would usher in your Kingdom and overthrow Caesar!!�

And the figure of Joseph of Har-Imathea is mysterious (kind of gets introduced, bribes Pilate for the body and leaves), but one would assume a next of kin in the Daviddic family would would naturally have wished to �ransom� Iesous from the Cross while he was still alive (Mark�s gospel, the earliest of the 4 to be written down, even said, �And Pilate was shocked that Iesous could have been dead so quickly�, and Mark�s gospel also states: �they took down the SOMA (Greek: �living body�) from the cross (the word for �dead corpse� in Greek is PTOMA)�which means that Joseph may have gotten there in time to save him.

The Jewish "Turncoat-Historian" Josephus relates the remarkable story (in his Antiquities of the Jews, AD 85) of �three crucified men� who were �ransomed� by anxious relatives paid for by cash (bribes) handed to the Roman Praefect�just like Joseph of Har-Imathea apparently did�(although the Gospels say he merely "begged for the body" !) while they were still hanging on their crosses, nailed through the wrists ---and when the cash was paid to the Praefect and others down the food chain of Roman Command, these three were allowed to be deposed from their crosses after only a couple of hours of the torture (like �Ieosus�, at least according to the Gospels, he was actually hung on a cross for only 6 hours in all, i.e. from the 3rd to the 9th hour, which is NOT long enough to kill a man, and moreover, he was handed something to drink (!) on a sponge-pole) . Of Josephus� crucified men, two of them actually managed to recover from their wounds and lived for a time afterwards.

The same thing may have happened to �Iesous� where �he appeared alive to his disciples�� some days later. How long he survived, if he did survive, will probably never be known.

It has been shown by criminal tortures carried out even in modern times that in general, it takes approx. 70 hours to kill a man on a Roman style cross depending on the amount of torture before and after the nailing up of the body (i.e. penile castration and slow disembowlment etc. were very common after-crucifixion-tortures, and this generally sped up the process, like the breaking of the legs, causing asphyxiation).

QUOTE: And "don't believe all the nonsense Paul and tradition has added on top..." UNQUOTE

Good point again. Paul Never Met "Iesous", so what Authority ultimately did he have over the church? A loud mouth, perhaps, but nothing more !

But he was not the only one running around with a loud mouth in the 1st century purporting to "preach the true Gospel of the Messiah"...

Actually, there were several �Christianities� (Gnostic, Pauline, Nazorean, Ebionite, etc.) running around in the 1st century just as there were several �Judaeisms� (Sadducean, Pharasaic, Essenoid, Samaratin etc.).

Many of these rival sects were at odds with each other, especially the two largest "camps" i.e. Paul�s gentile non-Torah abiding churches and the socalled Torah Abiding �Nazorean Jewish-Christian Churches� headed up by �the Pillars� including the blood brother of �Iesous� James �the Just� (Yakkob bar Yosef ha Tsaddiq) ---the Nazorean church was a Jewish form of Chrsitianity very close to the Essenes in supporting the end of days Messiah Expectation of the Romans being overthrown (read the War Scroll) and that the Faithful Sons of Light had to obey the Torah laws to the letter to be worthy to witness this glorious Deliverance, which included physical circumcision in the same way �Ieosus� himself promoted ("not a jot not a tittle of the Torah must be altered: every thing must be fulfilled to the letter!")

But (rather unfortunately for the family of "Iesous") the "Judaeising" (anti Pauline) Nazorean churches which mainly existed in Palestine and Antioch were virtually wiped out during the Jewish War against Rome in AD 70, leaving Paul�s safely tucked away but dogmatically twisted anti-Jewish, anti Circumcision, anti Torah �Gentile� churches spread throughout the Roman Empire (away from the War in Palestine) alive and well to multiply at will without restraint throughout the Roman Empire, and even lived to compete AND BLEND IN with all the pagan Mystery Religions out there in the Empire, all vying for membership.

AGAIN, DON�T FORGET: Saul of Tarsus never ever met �Iesous� in the flesh (only in dreams and visions)

Moreover he even admitted that he fought bitterely with James and other members of the immediate family of �Iesous� and with Peter (read Acts chapter 15, then compare the account with Galatians chapter 2 to catch a glimpse over the hatred between these two groups)---and yet he called himself an APOSTLE (and the members of �iesous� immediate circle rather disparagingly �those so-called Pillars of the Church� as if he were jealous of them.

So naturally there is no good reason for any Christian (who purports to follow the teachings of the very Nazorean �Iesous�) to take Saul of Tarsus� word for anything---since after all he never met the man, spoke Greek as his first language, told his members not to obey the Torah and to top it all off, wasn�t even born in Israel !

You're on the right track, Evil-Meow, keep on meowing!

Quote: "Actually, there were several �Christianities� (Gnostic, Pauline, Nazorean, Ebionite, etc.) running around in the 1st century just as there were several �Judaeisms� (Sadducean, Pharasaic, Essenoid, Samaratin etc.).

Many of these rival sects were at odds with each other, especially the two largest "camps" i.e. Paul�s Gentile non-Torah abiding churches and the socalled Torah Abiding �Nazorean Jewish-Christian Churches�

&

"Compete AND BLEND IN with all the Pagan Mystery Religions out there in the Empire, all vying for membership."

Wow - Amazing!!! Thanks again for Clearing this up Amadeus - not many people state the True Facts these days - lots of different "Christianities" still running around today as a matter of fact! Keep up the
Good Work!!

[edit on 27-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Amadeus - could it be that for a long time it was the "Hebrew Jews" at War with their "Pagan" (This could mean anything) neighbors that surrounded them at all sides (Middle East & Europe) - Until around the Year 1000 A.D. when ISLAM began to take off - The Hebrew Jews viewed the Moslems as an even Bigger Threat (and still do today) & so the Conscious Decision to "Unite" with the Gentiles (instead of fighting them) was made by both sides!!!

Co-incidentally this is when the "Roman Catholic Church" - Formally the "Roman Empire" - Formed & starting gaining Strength. The Next move would Logically be the Crusades. The Middle East was Predominately Moslem & still is today!!! Therefore it is Logical that "Christianity" became entrenched in Europe - while still having its roots in the Middle East!!! Judaism more or less Dissolved or Transformed into Christianity!!!

"Semitic" does not necessarily mean a Practitioner of the Judaic Religion - just a person who has Blood/Genetics from the Middle East Area!!!

The Ancient Egyptians & Persians were "Semitic Pagans"!!!

P.S. this was NEVER TOUGHT to me in Church or School � I had to figure it out myself. I wish that someone would have explained it to me � instead of letting my Paranoia run Wild with �Church Conspiracies�!

Originally posted by marg6043
In 1993 Members of a Hasidic Jewish sect believe that their revered grand rabbi, Menachem Mendel Schneerson could be the long awaited Messiah.

I just saw a caravan of vans that had "The Messiah is Here!" and I think the picture of this guy going down 7th Ave in New York City. They were playing music and had big crowns on the top.

I know it sounds weird, but it's true. They must think he's back or something.

Jesus is just the biggest pop icon of all time, not a messiah