The Jewish and Jesus. Why didn't "they" believe

Though I am not a Christian, I have often thought of this. Surely the Jewish wanted their Messiah to come. They were there during these times and surely they scrutinized everything happening at the time, and yet, they decided that no, Jesus was not the Messiah they wait for.....Why? I know part of it was he was challenging their religious authority, but there had to be some that felt different....just something I have thought about before.

They did.
Jesus had 1000's of followers - mentioned in the bible. Think of the 5000, and 4000 he did the miracles with. Thousands of people who waited days to see him. So many that entire villages went out when they heard he was around, and as a result he had to stay in the countryside.

The Sanhedren, who were the religous leaders were worried that he was so popular he would draw away the people from their own teachings. That is why they set out to kill him, to retain their own positions of power. So he was very popular.

John 12

The Triumphal Entry
12 The next day, the news that Jesus was on the way to Jerusalem swept through the city. A huge crowd of Passover visitors 13 took palm branches and went down the road to meet him. They shouted,


"Praise God!*
Bless the one who comes in the name of the Lord!
Hail to the King of Israel!"*


17 Those in the crowd who had seen Jesus call Lazarus back to life were telling others all about it. 18 That was the main reason so many went out to meet him-because they had heard about this mighty miracle. 19 Then the Pharisees said to each other, "We've lost. Look, the whole world has gone after him!"


[edit on 15-9-2004 by Netchicken]

In the Jewish believe Jesus birth did not fulfill the Jewish belief of how their messiah was come.

Jesus became the messiah of Christianity as was the new testament.

Jesus had a lot of followers, mainly low to middle-class Jews who awaited God's deliverance from the Roman oppression. But the Jewish heirarchy clinged to prophises about the conquering Messiah, who would rule Israel as its king. But if you truely study the Old Testament, you can see that the Messiah would first have to come to save Israel, which is the most important role. After their salvation, He would return again to rule and reign with them, which is the prophised Second Coming.

The messiahs� requirements as by Jewish belief, the Messiah will initiate a reign of world peace, gather all Jews in Israel and rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. Later, the dead will rise.

In 1993 Members of a Hasidic Jewish sect believe that their revered grand rabbi, Menachem Mendel Schneerson could be the long awaited Messiah.

How to recognize the Messiah.

He must be of the seed of Abraham.

He must be of the tribe of Judah

He must be of the house of David.

He must be born of a virgin.

He must be born in Bethlehem.

He must be God.

The news the new testament found Jesus to meet the qualifications and is therefore the Messiah.

Now the sad thing is that the Jews never mention Jesus to be the Messiah and they were the ones to make this claims of how he should come.

No were in history but in the bibles accounts of Jesus as a supernatural being incarnated. Many writers of the time of Jesus visited and lived in the same area as Jesus lived and preached and made his miracles but only the new testament is the one that shows all this.

No archaeological dig or any archaeological find shows any evidence of Jesus but is all over Jerusalem conveniently tag and name for the conveniences of the Christian believers and the tourist that come to visit the area.

Then you ask why they don't believe? perhaps their reason is my reason of not believing.

[edit on 15-9-2004 by marg6043]

Good question. I think they rejected him for the same reasons we reject so-called prophets and messiah these days...we (not me, Christians, etc.) expect this person to come riding in on a magic carpet with all encompassing powers.

Jesus was such a minor player in his times and more than likely got lost in the shuffle. His legend was cultivated by the people who subsequently started a religion around him many years later. Christians have very little knowledge of the actual history surrounding Jesus when he was alive and seem to think he had a major impact at the time. He didn't, and in my opinion for good reason.

[edit on 22-9-2004 by ancientsailor]

Originally posted by marg6043
The messiahs� requirements as by Jewish belief, the Messiah will initiate a reign of world peace, gather all Jews in Israel and rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. Later, the dead will rise.

In 1993 Members of a Hasidic Jewish sect believe that their revered grand rabbi, Menachem Mendel Schneerson could be the long awaited Messiah.

How to recognize the Messiah.

He must be of the seed of Abraham.

He must be of the tribe of Judah

He must be of the house of David.

He must be born of a virgin.

He must be born in Bethlehem.

He must be God.

The news the new testament found Jesus to meet the qualifications and is therefore the Messiah.

Now the sad thing is that the Jews never mention Jesus to be the Messiah and they were the ones to make this claims of how he should come.

No were in history but in the bibles accounts of Jesus as a supernatural being incarnated. Many writers of the time of Jesus visited and lived in the same area as Jesus lived and preached and made his miracles but only the new testament is the one that shows all this.

No archaeological dig or any archaeological find shows any evidence of Jesus but is all over Jerusalem conveniently tag and name for the conveniences of the Christian believers and the tourist that come to visit the area.

Then you ask why they don't believe? perhaps their reason is my reason of not believing.

[edit on 15-9-2004 by marg6043]

you see, those signs are EXACTLY why Jesus was the messiah. It was the arrogant and ignorant Pharisees that couldn't stand to be challenged since their egos were so high. That is how they got Jesus crucified, now im not blaming the Jews as it had to come to be in order for any of us to enter heaven, but that is how Judaism is still around. Yes Jesus WAS popular back then, keep in mind there are said to be more people alive today then the total amount of people that have ever lived before us. I don't know if i believe this, but oh well. I'll tell you what, show me how Jesus didn't fulfill all of those signs and become the messiah!

Weller is right...

Clearly, most of you have neve totally read the whole old testament (Tanakh)...

chrisitanity is mostly a pagan, heathen religion(ritual) composed of other bastardized cults of old... Its entire foundation is the testament of 4 different men... Which is the correct one?

Because they were ZEALOTS! They were expecting their Messiah to come bringing "Fire & Sword" - to remove the Occupying Romans from their Homeland & to be their new Temporal King. Imagine their Surprise when this guy came along & started Healing the sick & then thought
"Peace & Love"! That is NOT what they wanted to Hear! I think that it is shameful that the very people that Jesus was trying to Unify & Enlighten - HIS OWN PEOPLE - handed him over to said Romans to be treated & disposed of as a COMMON CRIMINAL!!!

Interesting side note - 200 years later they did "Officially" Declare a Messiah & Threw a full scale Revolt against the Romans as they Desired - the Romans CRUSHED THEM & the Temple was Destroyed!

Of-Course even most Modern Jews seem not to want to acknowledge Jesus
- the Talmud calls him a "Vile Magician Sorcerer"!!!

Hello, Groupies--------

Time for another history lesson, I guess: so read and learn.

Essentially you are asking why the message of R. Yeshoshua bar Yosef the Galilean was rejected by the "Judaeans"?

There were political as well as religious reasons for this "rejection of his own"...

One of the reasons why the Judaeans did not "believe on him" after his execution is that, well...he was executed as a failed seditionist by crucifixion, a punishment resevered ONLY for political insurrectionists by the Romans.

"Jeeezuzzzz" was seen by the average Jew on the street in those days as just another Messianic failure, a false prophet who made false propmises (among so many floating around before the Jewish War against Rome) whose words/prophecies simply did NOT come true ("Amen Amen I say unto you: there are some standing here who will NOT TASTE DEATH until they see the SON OF MAN sitting at the right hand of the Power in his Kingdom with the MYRIADS OF HIS HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM....")

Deuteronomy has this to say about men claiming to be prophets whose words do NOT come true: IF A MAN CLAIMS TO BE A PROPHET OF YHWH AND SPEAKS AN ORACLE WHICH DOES NOT COME TO PASS THAT MAN IS A FALSE PROPHET...AND YHWH DID NOT SEND HIM...YOU WILL NOT LISTEN TO HIM....BUT YOU SHALL TAKE HIM AND STONE HIM WITH STONES...."

This would explain the Transfiguration pericope where Lightning and Thunder ("qol" in Hebrew also means VOICE" if there was someone to translate or interpret the thunderbolt) where the "VOICE" thunders down allegedly in Hebrew: THIS IS MY SON...MY BELOVED ONE...LISTEN TO HIM...!

In other words, the Gospels are "apologietcially" trying to say (see Mark chapter 9) that "Jeeezuzz" was NOT a false prophet after all...and to LISTEN TO HIM... like the ANGEL WHOM YHWH WAS SUPPOSED TO SEND (see the book of Numbers) "LIKE UNTO MOSES"...YOU WILL LISTEN TO HIM !! etc.

They are clearly answering accusations among common "Jews" of the 1st century that "Jeezuzz" was a false prophet who deserved what he got swinging naked on a Roman gibbet.

But to back up a bit--------Why was his message rejected by the Jewish Masses---before and after his death?

First one has to see that the main division in 1st Century Roman Occupied (and Messianic Hopeful) Palestine was the division between the Jerusalemites (wealthier Roman sympathetic Southerners) and the non-Jerusalemites (especially the NORTHERN Galileans who were violetnly ANTI ROMAN, and very prone to bloody political armed uprisings, e.g. BC 4, AD 6 etc. cf: Judah the Galilean whose revolt when Jerusalem was annexed by Rome, caused more than 30,000 Jewish deaths at one Passover Uprising)

During his own lifetime, the main enemy-camp of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ["Jeeezuzz"] who was considered northern 9and Daviddic) and therefore polticially dangerous, were the sons of Zadok (i.e. Zaddukkim, or "Saduccees") who were the ruling power in Jerusalem (Iudaioi) not the Pharisees, as the later Gospels would have their later audiences believe.

[The Pharisees were the LATER enemy of the early church after AD 70 when the Saduccees were killed off or otherwise put out of work with the 2nd Temple burnt to the ground by the Romans. ]

First a little background on the messy technical terms here which are blurred by modern English translations.

The NT Greek Gospels use the word IUDAIOI to refer to "Judaeans", i.e. the southern Palestinian power circles in and around Yerushalayaim (Jerusalem) and especially the Temple area which was the politico-religious centre of Palestinian Jews after the Macabbean Revolt (164 BC).

"Iudaioi" is sometimes translated in the King James Version of 1611 and other messy modern Enlgish versions as "Jews" when it SHOULD more correctly say "Judaeans" e.g.see John chapter 3: where "Jeeezuzz" addresses the Samaritan woman 'at the well':

"For [it is written] the SALVATION [of Israel] SHALL COME FROM THE JUDAEANS (a direct quote from the Testament of Naphtali chapter 13:9 found in the Dead Sea Scrolls) :

This doctored passage is usually mis translated (and universalized) in the KJV and related English versions as "for Salvation is of the Jews" in most English versions...completely obscuring the original intent of the passage

Yuck...but back to the point of this thread:

Perhaps the question on this thread should more properly read:

WHY DID THE JUDAEANS (of Jerusalem) reject R. Yehoshua bar Yosef [the northern Galilean's] message of the Re-instatement of the Kingdom of David on earth? (after all R. Yeshoshua bar Yosef the Galilean was apparently of Daviddic blood lineage, which meant his blood line was more important than anything he did or said.

This bloodline certainly accounts for his blood brother [ R. Yakkov bar Yosef ha-Tsaddiq] or "James the Just" immediately taking over the Early Church Ministry after the Crucifixion--when this same James was hostile to Yehoshua during his lifetime, and clearly was not a disciple ("one of the 12")--even Saul of Tarsus apparently said as much ("he appeared to James and then to the 12", although one wonders who the 12th one was, when Yehudah bar Shimeon Ish-Keryia apparently left the group!)

I think the clue to the whole rejection idea here is "Galilean" (from the Heb. Ha GilGal Ha Goyim = "circle of Gentiles"). The southern Judaean Jerusalemites did not think the Galileans were full fledged "Jews" (too much mixed Assyrian and Greek blood up there, you know, after all those pesky invasions !) and moreover, the Jeriusalemite Zaddukkim were political Levites who since 104 BC had seized the "throne" by claiming Kingship as well as Priesthood (translating the obscrure grammar of the Torah passage to read:

"THOU SHALT BECOME TO ME A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, SAITH YHWH the god of ISRAEL" rather than the earlier version of the Heb found in the Samaritan Pentateuch and DSS version "THOU SHALT BECOME TO ME A KINGDOM AND PRIESTS" i.e. two classes of rulers not one.

John Hyrcanus the High Priest in 104 BC called himself a KING (even though he was Levitical, i.e. of the tribe of Levi, not David's tribe of Judah (and it was John who was responsible for forced and bloody conversions to Judaeism of many outlying areas of Palestine, including parts of Idumaea where "King" Herod's family was forcibly converted).

So the Levetical Priestly "Sadduceans" in Jerusalem had effectively taken over the role of the King (i.e. the role which originally was supposed to be the sole domain of David's house--which had been in Exile in Babylon and other places since 587 BC, and again after Zerubbabel tried to overtake the Persians in Jerusalem in the 430s BC).

R. Yehoshua bar Yosef (the Galilean), with all of his [supposedly] Daviddic blood, would have therefore POSED A POLITICAL DIRECT THREAT to the reigning Judaean Sadducean priesthood-kingdom and would have "rocked the boat with their masters in Rome": read what one gospel said:

"Rabbi, silence your disciples ! Do you want the ROMANS to come and TAKE AWAY OUR HOLY TEMPLE?"

--evidently the disciple Messianist followers of the Gailean were singing songs to the House of David ("Blessed is He who Cometh in the Name of YHWH...", Hosanna in the Highest, Blessed is the Kingdom of our father David !!") which would have been Sedition against Roman authority--since the ROMAN STATUTE: LEX MAISTATIS (for which J. was executed in the end by Crucifixion) meant "no KING by CAESAR" in effect---and so the Saduccees were trying to keep the balance with Rome in place---and this upstart Daviddic Galilean was a THREAT to their power base.

R. Yehoshua's answer was typical, and full of End of Days Messianism: "IF I WERE TO SILENCE THESE MY FOLLOWERS AT THIS MOMENT, THE VERY STONES WOULD SING OUT FROM THE GROUND !"

This friction between the Zaddukkim and the Exiled House of David (waiting in the wings as it were to re-assume the Throne of Israel in the LAST DAYS) is the RELIGIO-POLITICAL CORE of the rejection of the Galilean by most of the Judean south.

Other factors played into this: The Zaddukkim (in order to rid themselves of Daviddic pests) had to trump up some charges against this usurper 9and others like him)---so they manufactured "charges" like BLASPHEMY (death by stoning), and SORCERY (casting out Belial-Satan by the name of Belial-Satan), or CONSCIOIUS BREACH OF CERTAIN TORAH LAWS (like gleaning fields on the Sabbath)---i.e. "LEADING THE SONS OF ISRAEL ASTRAY" from the Laws of Moses...

But since Rome had apparently taken away the power of the death penalty for a time from the Judaean "authorities" (at least according to John's gospel anyway), the Sadduccees had to find a peculiarly ROMAN offence, and this was the LEX MAISTATIS----the no King but Caesar Law....since his Daviddic Blood was a threat to Rome who held Palestine as a conquored client state as well as the Saduccean Priesthood who loved hlding the reins of power--even if those reins were ultimately in the hands of the Romans...

John's Gospel (for what it is worth) mentions several vicious encounters of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean with the Sons of Zadok (Zaddukkim) where his northern mixed-race roots were brought up again and again:

"YOU ARE ALTOGETHER A SAMARITAN (i.e. northern, mixed race) AND DO YOU DARE TO TEACH US? (the Iudaeoi)..."

"CAN ANYTHING GOOD (TOV="Good", in the sense of Blessed, or sent from YHWH) COME FROM GALILEE?

"MIDRASH THE SCRIPTURES AND YOU SHALL SEE THAT NO PROPHET (i.e. from YHWH) SHALL ARISE FROM GALILEE..."

Notice the Southern prejudie against the North among the Roman-appointed power elite Tsaddukkim in Jerusalem---at least before the 2nd Herodian Temple was ground to Powder in the Failed Coup (the so-called "1st Jewish War") against Rome in AD 70.

[when they said, "Search the Scriptures", of course the Zadukkim only meant the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible, i.e. the Torah, since the 2nd Temple Benei Zadok, (or Zadukkim, = "Saduccees") who controlled the 2nd Herodian Temple and the priesthhod, as well as the Central Bank and were appointed by Rome, did not hold anything but the Torah as "scriptures" which "defiled the hands" --and also rejected other claims of Messianists such as the Resurrection of the Dead and a belief in Angels etc.] ...

In AD 36, as the 100th anniversary of the Roman Occuipation (BC 63) drew near the message was loud and Clear: PREPARE YE THE WAY OF YHWH NOW---THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS APPROACHING----THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES (i.e. the ROMANS) IS FULFILLED---NOW IS THE DAY OF VENGEANCE (a quote from the Dead Sea Scrolls WAR SCROLL), the common people of Judaea were of course anxious for YHWH to intervene and "save them" (cf: Luke 24: we were hoping that this Iesous woudl redeem Israel of her enemies...) and were hoping for a militant Daviddic Messiah forcibly to overthrow the Occupying Romans:

R. Yehoshua of course must have believed in the 100th anniversary magic date as well, since he consciously armed his disciples with swords on the hill and attempted a coup attempt during Passover, and we all know how that turned out as his tiny band of followers failed to ignite a full scale rebellion---and the praefect of Judea (Pontius Pilatus) executed all the leaders of the Coup attempt by Crucifixion....

Interesting the Gospel Greek says LESTAE for the others executed next to the Christians' hero, which really means "Armed Seditionist" and not "Robber"---the KJV and other English translations try to soften the political underpinnings of what really happend that Passover (even though Mark's gospel retains the words when referring to Bar-Abba as "arrested during the Insurrection" !!)

Pesach-Passover was also the usual time for these political-military uprisings against Roman authority, especially among all those pesky revolutionary northern anti Roman Galileans...who were so politically and economically (and religiously) removed from the Judaean circles of Roman power up there in the sticks...

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Thanks

Amadeus, What site are you getting that from...I'd like to read through it, I see you posted a similar posting from it here

Hi Lady V:

The information in my posts all comes from standard current main stream theological academia---nothing new to Biblical scholars.

The conclusions I have reached over the years (and are reflected in my posts) come from a variety of intersecting historical-source material--but no no one-single source like an internet link etc.

Throw into that mix more than 25 years of patient academic research and reading over more than 2500 books on the subject, as well as poring over so much of the available Dead Sea Scroll Material in Hebrew and in English translation, and many 2nd temple related and scholarly articles on Roman History (added to all my lecture notes from my British University years....)
and you have an idea of where all this comes from.

Are there any specific points that I made in my thread that you would like for me to explain or any foggy ideas you would like me to clear up?

Most of what is said can be verified by accessing the texts of the Greek Gospels for yourself...all standard stuff I'm afraid...although no church would like this kind of scholarly information to be discussed in any detail by the masses of followers....it would put a hurt on their collection plate !!

Amadeus......No, you took me wrong! I am not doubting anything or needing to verify. You just didn't have time to type all of that out, so I knew it was from a site somewhere. I wanted to go through the site, that's all

Originally posted by LadyV
Though I am not a Christian, I have often thought of this. Surely the Jewish wanted their Messiah to come. They were there during these times and surely they scrutinized everything happening at the time, and yet, they decided that no, Jesus was not the Messiah they wait for.....Why? I know part of it was he was challenging their religious authority, but there had to be some that felt different....just something I have thought about before.

Okay, please picture this.... (I don't know if you have any younger siblings, so I will use 2 examples

Imagine you have a younger sis/bro, and everyone was telling you crazy things about her/him, like they were turning water into wine, and rocks into bread, and healing the deathly ill, and making the blind see and the deaf hear, but you haven't seen anything.. and when you ask her/him to do it, or something atleast they tell you no.

or if that doesn't help

What if your garbage man, who not only picked up your garbage but also spoke of the divine, God. and claimed to be his son, and then he starts giving you all this information which was VERY new to everyone, a BIG change and went against everything that they knew or thought God wanted. He owned nothing, he kept no money, had no place to call home, he was practically like the homeless you see on the street, and when you see one of those people screaming the END IS COMING, you turn and look the other way, and dismiss it as a crazy, but nevermind to go up and ask how this is so.

They didnt believe, because we fear what we dont understand.

Originally posted by israelcd
Weller is right...

Clearly, most of you have neve totally read the whole old testament (Tanakh)...

chrisitanity is mostly a pagan, heathen religion(ritual) composed of other bastardized cults of old... Its entire foundation is the testament of 4 different men... Which is the correct one?

The one they didn't put in.... St. Thomas

Imagine you have a younger sis/bro, and everyone was telling you crazy things about her/him, like they were turning water into wine, and rocks into bread, and healing the deathly ill, and making the blind see and the deaf hear, but you haven't seen anything.. and when you ask her/him to do it, or something atleast they tell you no.

That's pretty much it...in a nutshell. Good job.

Simply put...according to their faith, there were certain notes about the Messiah, and Jesus did NOT fit the bill. It's no wonder they doubted him... The real wonder is why others DIDN'T??? For one claiming to be the one and only son of the Creator, his seeming powers would be eclipsed by Sigfried and Roy...

Originally posted by Gazrok

Imagine you have a younger sis/bro, and everyone was telling you crazy things about her/him, like they were turning water into wine, and rocks into bread, and healing the deathly ill, and making the blind see and the deaf hear, but you haven't seen anything.. and when you ask her/him to do it, or something atleast they tell you no.

That's pretty much it...in a nutshell. Good job.

Simply put...according to their faith, there were certain notes about the Messiah, and Jesus did NOT fit the bill. It's no wonder they doubted him... The real wonder is why others DIDN'T???

For one claiming to be the one and only son of the Creator, his seeming powers would be eclipsed by Sigfried and Roy...

And also ....

(31) Jesus said, "A prophet is not acceptable in that prophet's own native town. A physician does not heal people who are acquainted with that physician."

So thats his own words for the explanation

Originally posted by Gazrok


Simply put...according to their faith, there were certain notes about the Messiah, and Jesus did NOT fit the bill. It's no wonder they doubted him... The real wonder is why others DIDN'T???

This is something I have wondered about also. Back then, and today, the religious community would, if someone were to do such feats, be accused of being possessed by demons.....