Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

reply to post by BBalazs


everything that humans create is ideal... your neighborhood, your supermarket, your roads, bridges, technology, cars, buildings, beautiful accomplishments of architecture. the systems, institutions, alll of its ideal

reply to post by ImaFungi


Man is not inherently evil, Man wielding power over others is for he no longer, in his eyes, is subject to the rules that govern society. Power becomes his right, along with it wealth at the expense of his fellow man. Man, while almost always with good intention at heart, can also be tempted quite easily. Given the means to perpetuate these temptations to excess through power over others is nearly always too much for the human spirit to bear without strong convictions and adherence to certain moral principles.

"A mans gotta have a code... a creed to live by" --John Wayne

reply to post by ImaFungi


sigh.
if you actually read what I WROTE, i wrote the opposite.
never mind, as long as you can make your point in infinity loops.
human nature is what it is.
it is neither good or bad.
that is judgment.
it is a correlation of the society and times we live in.
there will always be a few who test the limits. embrace them.
but by and large human nature is good, that why bill gates, and warren buffet gee their money out.
you ideoligize that, human nature too.
you set yourself up for a fall, the unattainable ideal.
for you everything is an ideology.
you are lost in words, without understanding.
rereading this thread there have been gems.
wise words have left many, yet you remain oblivious, continuing your commie matras, rather then actually looking up words and their meaning, and checking out how systems work.
this is my last word and testament on this subject:

you are indeed religious.
your religion is socialism. the answer to everything.
it has 2 compartments: good, bad (capitalist).
when god (state) rules there is heaven.
details to be worked out latter.
as bob marley said: heaven is a place on the earth.
just open your eyes.

reply to post by BBalazs


your argument is pretending im the one who is lost and confused... an ideal system can be created.. we are intelligent man.. there are enough resources on the planet for all people to live comfortably. IT CAN BE MADE A REALITY< IT CAN, you will say it cant, but it can,,, the only reason..... it cant,,, is because all the people who say.... it cant.... if everyone thought it can, it could, and it would..... thats all i got.. thats my argument... until then the general atomsphere of the world will be one of war and conflict, greed, and envy, jelousy and contempt.. thats all.... i dont care for any systems. i dont care.. im stating my discovered truth.... blah blah truth is subjective..... if everyone in the world cooperated for peace and prosperity, it would become a reality,,, if they pooled their energy towards a common goal, pyramids, cities, ideal systems, miles of farms would be created.

reply to post by ImaFungi


yes, it can be made a reality.
but not by communism.
anyway, good luck fighting yourself.
if you let go of communism, it would all fall into place.
goodbye.

reply to post by BBalazs


i dont care about communism, i dont care about anything but human life.

reply to post by ImaFungi



i read every word you wrote, i understand them and the words and people and the systems.

reply to post by ImaFungi


The truth is that every man, woman and child on this Earth are given freedom by nature and nature's God. If everyone respected everyone else's Liberty, there would be no need for a system in general, such that by creating a system we are intruding on the Liberty of future generations. Since, however, not every man respects the Liberty of every other, a system to protect that Liberty is needed. Man's goal, then, should be to create a system that protects as much Liberty for all man and his future generations as possible.

reply to post by ImaFungi


you are right about me fighting myself... i have an all or nothing mentality.... if you dont go to the heart of the problems, you will not fix the problems, only set the stage for more... its gotta be all or nothing...cuz if it is any, it is more like nothing.. the time is nigh...

reply to post by ProgressiveSlayer


agreed,, i truly believe if all men were truly looked upon as equal members of society and community, were able to have a job with decent enough pay to comfortably and securely provide a home for his wife and family and food,, if all men were given this opportunity, there would be a lot less people in prison... it is when people lose all hope for themselves and their future when they resort to rash, eradic and destructive beahviors to themselves and others...

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by colin42

 

when you guys bring up human nature it is always how negative human nature is.. look at humanity, the majority of people dont kill each other every day running around pissin and snippin all over the streets..... we highlight the bright side and positive side.. we wish to politely suggest a system where all humans dont need to use their more dark human nature against other humans... we banded together to form community, communeity, because it was easier working together, pooling skills and sights, fending off nature as a group... dont abandon us now and regress to your evil apeish ways.. most life seeks the light

I am still trying to work out if this is addressed to me? I have challenged ALL your ideologies and stated they all fail. I have not talked about human nature let alone human nature from a negative point of view.

Who Are WE in the sentence 'we highlight the bright side and positive side' Any one of the failed systems will maintain that. Its near impossible to sell people a negative.

The rest appears to have been lifted from the federations manual in Star Trek.

Most people want as a priority to feed, cloth and house their families. The want a fair days pay for a fair days work and some hope for the future. None of the ideologies have provided this. Our only saviour was the flip flop nature of politics of one term under one then the other. Since Kinnock took labour to the centre where both parties live now there is nothing to choose between the two ideologies the result is unfettered ideals and catastrophe.

If that is me returning to my evil apeish ways then throw me a banana

reply to post by ProgressiveSlayer


also you seem to be a new member to this site.... try the real true real world on for size

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by colin42


i dont think that was directed towards you.

reply to post by ImaFungi

take a word from the wise my friend and relax:

45

True perfection seems imperfect,
yet it is perfectly itself.
True fullness seems empty,
yet it is fully present.

True straightness seems crooked.
True wisdom seems foolish.
True art seems artless.

The Master allows things to happen.
She shapes events as they come.
She steps out of the way
and lets the Tao speak for itself.
46

When a country is in harmony with the Tao,
the factories make trucks and tractors.
When a country goes counter to the Tao,
warheads are stockpiled outside the cities.

There is no greater illusion than fear,
no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,
no greater misfortune than having an enemy.

Whoever can see through all fear
will always be safe.

you are searching for something that is not lost.
communism is a failed ideology, a state of fear.
defend yourself against the many wise words here, should enlighten you.
inequlity is in YOUR MIND, but there by STATE PROPAGANDA.
Outside, in the real world, of freedom loving folk, it exist not.

also meditate upon these enlightened words regarding states:

If a country is governed with tolerance,
the people are comfortable and honest.
If a country is governed with repression,
the people are depressed and crafty.

When the will to power is in charge,
the higher the ideals, the lower the results.
Try to make people happy,
and you lay the groundwork for misery.
Try to make people moral,
and you lay the groundwork for vice.

Thus the Master is content
to serve as an example
and not to impose her will.
She is pointed, but doesn't pierce.
Straightforward, but supple.
Radiant, but easy on the eyes.

higher the ideal, the lower the result.
i rest my case.
you are projecting your fragmented though out to an unexacting reality.

Originally posted by petrus4

Go and read about what the British East India Company did to India, for starters.
...

That was not Capitalism, that was a monopoly, corpocracy, another leftwing ideaology in which a large corporation has monopoly over a certain infraestructure and uses force to exert the will of a few.

That was not capitalism. Capitalism means a free market, not a monopoly where a corporation has most, if not all the power.

Anytime there is centralization, or consolidation of power, and when a large business/corporation is in charge, that is fascism which is a part of socialism.

True rightwing ideaology leads to less government, not more, no central banks, and no monopolies.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

everything that humans create is ideal... your neighborhood, your supermarket, your roads, bridges, technology, cars, buildings, beautiful accomplishments of architecture. the systems, institutions, alll of its ideal

Not really, that's like claiming that change is always good.

Change can be for worse.

'There is no political solution
For our troubled evolution.....

We are spirits in the material world...'

The Police (Sting)

We are not going to find perfection in this world. Have you looked into the drawbacks of communism? What makes you think the psychopaths at the top of that system are any less evil than the big entrepeneurs of our system? (Kim Jong IL - Mao - to name 2) People who escaped communism to come here always warn against it. There is not going to be a perfect system here. Period.

Originally posted by lifeissacred
People need to come to terms with the fact that there is no Utopian system, that someone will lose whatever 19th/20th century European intellectuals you're into following. Someone will always profit at the expense of someone else's loss, that is the way of humanity, nature at large and the whole universe.

I get impatient with people who think they can create utopia on earth. It always ends bad. Human nature is not inherently good. The only final answer comes with God, not any system of government.

-

reply to post by JimmyNeutron


This is by far the best, most respectable and well put answer I have received so far. An absolute well deserved star for you.

It speaks for itself that I find myself disagreeing with you, but that is perfectly alright.

When I say that certain definitions have been distorted I am pretty convinced that I am correct here. For example electricuniverse states that Socialism is corporations working together with governments. That is entirely incorrect, because that is fascism. And fascism is the world we live in.

When you say Socialism will sink to the lowest possible denominator I have to disagree for several reasons. The first one being that these so called socialist regimes were in fact deliberate distortions. Apart from the few years in Spain, the world has never been able to compare to anything, it has not had a chance to develop. It was crushed immediately by powerful outside forces that were terrified of this movement, including Stalin a so called socialist/communist. (hence why I say they were controlled by the same forces)

Each person has their own agenda, stated or not, and disagreements about what the collective should be doing will ALWAYS arise. Without a designated adult in the room (CEO if you will) and an incentive or motivation to pull in the same direction at the expense of their own agenda, the socialist collective WILL dissolve or at least break down.

Certainly. Perfection does not exist anywhere. But when workers control the resources and production means using the result for the community they will no longer be exploited by the private interests, this is the major difference. There will always be some kind of leadership based on democratic consensus where people recognize the smartest and most capable. There should be discussion groups where idea's are exchanged and where everyone is welcome to discuss.

Capitalism enables me, as an individual, to pursue what motivates me by offering an ideological agnostic medium (money) separate from the collective. i.e. I don't have to drink the Kool Aid!

Perhaps it does so for you because you are adept at moving in this particular climate, you may have certain advantages and may be alright with the modality that you are obligated to abide to. It doesn't though work so for really billions of people around the world that are being exploited in every way possible, by capitalism only.
Capitalism has the advantage that some people, a few in comparison to the entirety, can make it and make it good. It does not for the rest. In fact you have to use the rest to get there. Only by exploitation can you get there. This might be hard to understand. There is no cooperation in capitalism only exploitation and profit-interest, thus only self-interest at the expense of others. This is why it is such a destructive force and that destructiveness reflects in this world. We can all see it. We have developed the habit of demonizing those who don't make it, and argue that it's their own fault, because in our eyes we have equal opportunity. But actually this argument is entirely flawed. They are merely the victim of the modality, the structure, which doesn't allow for equal opportunity at all. Equal opportunity is actually an enemy because it operates as a competitor. And in capitalism competition has to be destroyed, in order to secure a position in the market-place. They talk about he beauty of market-competition, but it's utter rubbish.

In other words, the greed inherent in human nature motivates me to subjugate my individual tastes & desires to a larger enterprise. Greed will ALWAYS undermine and destroy your utopian socialist dream and devolve it into either Fascism or Communism. EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!!

Of course we are driven by self interest first, but there are degrees to it and there are varieties of climates in which that can operate. The capitalist climate is entirely self-serving greed and psychopathic and functions only at the expense of others. Therefor only a minority can benefit while the rest gets the boot. This climate is not a reflection of our human nature, like so many argue, that is a preposterous insult to our intelligence. We are though all together responsible for maintaining this climate. We are being sold a lie, but more then that we choose to buy it. There's a fundamental difference there. This in my opinion has a lot to do with the fact that we always seem to be a step behind, we are continuously being outsmarted. You know, I am not that type of person but sometimes I find myself wondering if Maxwell,Icke,Tsarion and alike are right, perhaps its a foreign intelligence at work. How can they be so smart all the time, this bothers me.

In any case what needs to be done is to a create an environment, a climate in which our natural drives, our self interest can be fulfilled in ways that do no exploit others but contribute to the common good, to everybody, so nobody is excluded and without exploitation. There should be no one profiting at the expense of others. I am not convinced that the socialist system in Spain is the answer. I am not that naive. The world has changed, modernized, too many complicated and potentially dangerous technologies have been developed. We are somewhat outsmarted, outrun by technology. I don't really know how to exactly move forward. The resource based economy by Jaqcues Fresco is to me the most plausible one, the best one, because it's very modern and aims to use technology to reach the same goal. But the world is still too much in love with capitalism, regardless of its total and utter failure. I think capitalism in the end will destroy itself, and will possibly take the entire world with it.