Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by dadgad
What happened next was the biggest propaganda campaign ever to be seen. Aimed to destroy socialism. Because socialism is the nightmare of any ruling elite. It means that workers control their environment.

But socialists don't want to 'control their environment'. They want to sieze capitalists' money and take it for themselves.

Socialism is just a big resource grab.

Nonsense. That is what the Capitalist does.

Socialist share and distribute the resources. The capitalist holds a monopoly and controls the resources through private ownership. The workers are reduced to wage-slaves.

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by dadgad


I suggest you begin following this topic from this point. You are starting to piss me off. Don't jump into a conversation pretending to know what is being discussed. You're not a child anymore are you?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Tip: read ANOK carefully.

edit on 2-2-2012 by dadgad because: (no reason given)

Don't make the mistake of assuming I care, at all, about your feelings.

Originally posted by ollncasino
But socialists don't want to 'control their environment'. They want to sieze capitalists' money and take it for themselves.

Socialism is just a big resource grab.

No, the workers want to get the full worth of their labour.

Capitalism is exploitative because for the private owner to make money, the worker has to produce more than they are paid for.

That is the problem socialism was created to solve. Socialists believe that labour should be treated like any capital and they should receive the full value of their labour. In other words the profit the capitalist makes is theft.

For example a Chinese worker is paid about 6c to make a shirt that sells for $60 in the US. I don't know what profit is made from that, but I think I can say without fear of contradiction that it's more than 6c.

The other thing that profit making does is encourage 'middle men' who all want their percentage of the profit.
All this does nothing but increase the burden on the workers, who have to pay more and more for the goods they need, that they actually produce themselves. You can cut out the profit scheme by simply getting rid of the private owner. Then the good produced stay with those who produce them, the workers. They maintain the right to the goods they produce.

reply to post by colin42


Wow! You make a huge assumption about his background and what his family did or did not do for him. I come from a white collar, professional, affluent family but in no way did I have a silver spoon in my mouth. When I went to college it was not paid for by mom and pop. I worked to pay my way and what I couldn't pay I took loans for. I made damn sure to choose a profession that would pay me an adequate salary to both pay back my loan obligations and still live a fairly comfortable life.

In other words - I worked my ass off to get good grades and graduated 2nd in my engineering class at university. And my pursuit of happiness goes on just as I choose to pursue it.

In the United States there is ample opportunity for those that seize it. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying or trying to sell you something. There aren't any free lunches.

And by the way, who in your utopian socialist society would decide what is equal distribution? Ever read the book Animal Farm comrade? Everyone is equal, just some are more equal than others.

reply to post by ANOK


You are a candle of light amongst a herd lost in the dark.

reply to post by Jason Paul


When corporations and a central bank are in control of a nation it isn't capitalism... it is socialism...

The Republic of the United States has been in the grip of socialism since 1913...

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
The guy running the business is not any more valuable than the guys driving the trucks. If the pay was determined by the desirability of the job, the less desirable job = the most pay, then the guy running the operation, sitting in the AC when he's not sneaking off to the golf course, would make less money than the driver.

I see what you're getting at here, but do you really see that as an accurate portrayal of the situation?

For example: the number of people who can drive trucks is far greater than the number of people who can start, build, and maintain a business. Doing that is not easy, leads to ulcers, gray hairs, etc. But some people will do it, because the incentive is there, in the form of the possibility of greater rewards.

Also, the "desirability" of a job is a subjective thing.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by Jason Paul

 

When corporations and a central bank are in control of a nation it isn't capitalism... it is socialism...

The Republic of the United States has been in the grip of socialism since 1913...

False. Corporations and central banks are tools of the Capitalist and the Capitalist only. All that happened was that a foreign Capitalist (the Rothschilds) took over the supply of money. That's all, nothing more nothing less, no socialism.

The socialists, the workers control their environment, resources and working places.

Originally posted by aravoth

Why should I allow my employees to take over my company?

Well I never said to take over did I?

If people were taught what socialism actually is, and they had the choice they should have to decide for themselves what kind of economic system they want, then I think socialism would happen naturally.

Who would want to work for a private owners when they would have more control and better pay working at a worker owned company? There are worker owned companies right now in America that do very well, and as the workers all share the profit they do very well.

Capitalism was forced on the world at the end of feudalism. No one ever asked for it (Well I guess the land owners did).

Marx thought socialism, and then communism, would be the natural cycle we would move into, just as we moved from feudalism to capitalism.

Originally posted by ANOK

No, the workers want to get the full worth of their labour.

And they never get it...

Originally posted by ANOK
Capitalism is exploitative because for the private owner to make money, the worker has to produce more than they are paid for.

A worker can be a private owner in capitalism, meanwhile in socialism the worker owns nothing at all. You got it backwards Sherlock... It has ALWAYS been in socialist/communist nation that the people make less money, and don't own anything at all...

Originally posted by ANOK

That is the problem socialism was created to solve. Socialists believe that labour should be treated like any capital and they should receive the full value of their labour. In other words the profit the capitalist makes is theft.

Solve what?... All socialism does is to consolidate all power to a few, including for corporations, and doesn't give any power whatsoever to the worker...

Obviously people like you are totally oblivious to the past 100 years when every nation that has completely embraced socialism/communism has become nothing but a plague for the people...

Originally posted by ANOK

For example a Chinese worker is paid about 6c to make a shirt that sells for $60 in the US. I don't know what profit is made from that, but I think I can say without fear of contradiction that it's more than 6c.

Last I heard China was socialist/communist...

Originally posted by ANOK
The other thing that profit making does is encourage 'middle men' who all want their percentage of the profit.
All this does nothing but increase the burden on the workers, who have to pay more and more for the goods they need, that they actually produce themselves. You can cut out the profit scheme by simply getting rid of the private owner. Then the good produced stay with those who produce them, the workers. They maintain the right to the goods they produce.

You are so brainwashed that you can't see you are contradicting yourself...

If you get rid of private property NO ONE, except those in power, can own or have control of ANYTHING... Hence the "worker" has NO CONTROL or RIGHT to the goods they produce...

reply to post by ANOK


You keep blathering on about Spain and how the workers did this and the workers did that... I guarantee that the equipment they used came from capitalism. The world around them was capitalist and since no nation is an island unto itself and cannot satisfy all of its own resource demands the Spanish socialists had to operate on capitalist principles to interact with their suppliers.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by ANOK

No, the workers want to get the full worth of their labour.

And they never get it...

That is not an argument.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by maestromason
I have been working and earning a living off of my PASSIONS IN LIFE since the age of 5 making crystal radio sets and repairing televisions YES AT THE AGE OF 5.

Well, you will find that the making of 'crystal radio sets' has been outsourced to China. Do TV preair men stil exist?

My point is that what you did at 5 (?) is no longer an option. Those jobs no longer exist in the US.

You should try making a start these days instead of assuming that nothing has changed much in the last 30 years.

My father - a self employed business man his whole life.

It took many years for him to understand it wasn't the 60s anymore. It is tougher these days, even if you are sure that it isn't.

edit on 2-2-2012 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

I work in IP so 98% of what I do I utilize my Masters degree and my cognitive prowess...while 2% of what I do is labor(e.g. research and development, flying on business, run to the post office, ect.) I do not expect EVERYONE TO BE ME....this is AMERICA once again a land of INDIVIDUALS not SOCIALIST COLLECTIVISM.

I went from making crystal radios sets and selling them at the age of 5 to figuring out problems within certain foreign technologies and resolving those problems systematically for clients around the world...the key word here is FIGURING.

...and for those who do not know their geography where I grew up is about as urban as it gets here in N.E. Ohio.

www.city-data.com...

While growing up in the hood I learned just about everything there is to know about HUMANITARIANISM...h3ll, I should have a Phd in it..not HONORARY but EARNED!


So please stop with the comparison acts ok? If we are to stay on the subject of Capitalism then stay on it and keep it moving. My whole point was wrapped around CHANGE when CHANGE occurs what MUST ONE DO IN ORDER TO SURVIVE?

ADAPT!

There is an old adage that goes....


THEY HATE YOU WHEN YOU ARE SMARTER.

So true for all the wrong reasons.....smh

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by Jason Paul

 

When corporations and a central bank are in control of a nation it isn't capitalism... it is socialism...

The Republic of the United States has been in the grip of socialism since 1913...

Oh boy, again?

Socialism is the workers ownership and control of the means of production.
Capitalism is the private ownership of...

Read through the thread for more details.

reply to post by JimmyNeutron


why do you not think technology can be produced in a communistic manner? you dont think people cooperating can
create innovative technologies by pooling their resources?

this is what companies are,, a microcosm of communism

Originally posted by maestromason
I work in IP so 98% of what I do I utilize my Masters degree and my cognitive prowess...while 2% of what I do is labor(e.g. research and development, flying on business, run to the post office, ect.) I do not expect EVERYONE TO BE ME....this is AMERICA once again a land of INDIVIDUALS not SOCIALIST COLLECTIVISM.

Labour in this context means work of ANY kind, as apposed to doing nothing but owning capital to make your living.

So using your cognitive skill is still labour. It's your time, you produce something of value, otherwise you wouldn't be paid to do it.

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
reply to post by ANOK

 

You keep blathering on about Spain and how the workers did this and the workers did that... I guarantee that the equipment they used came from capitalism. The world around them was capitalist and since no nation is an island unto itself and cannot satisfy all of its own resource demands the Spanish socialists had to operate on capitalist principles to interact with their suppliers.

Of course the modes of production came from capitalism. Capitalism creates the conditions that socialism can take over and rebuild upon.

Hence why socialists call for international unity... socialism in one country is near impossible.

reply to post by maestromason


if i get kicked out of my home, find my self starving on the streets,, in order to adapt to that change would it be smart of me to break into your home, kill you, and steal your things... survival of the smartest?

Originally posted by dadgad
...
The socialists, the workers control their environment, resources and working places.

edit on 2-2-2012 by dadgad because: (no reason given)

Please do tell me, how in the world can the workers control their environment, the resources and working places WHEN THEY CAN'T OWN ANYTHING?...

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by maestromason
I work in IP so 98% of what I do I utilize my Masters degree and my cognitive prowess...while 2% of what I do is labor(e.g. research and development, flying on business, run to the post office, ect.) I do not expect EVERYONE TO BE ME....this is AMERICA once again a land of INDIVIDUALS not SOCIALIST COLLECTIVISM.

Labour in this context means work of ANY kind, as apposed to doing nothing but owning capital to make your living.

So using your cognitive skill is still labour. It's your time, you produce something of value, otherwise you wouldn't be paid to do it.

"Choose a career you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life" - Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC )