The book of Hebrews... truly divinely inspired?

reply to post by atotheb

These are prophecies to be revealed in the end.

You are living in a world of make-believe.
I would suggest reading some good books by people who are noted biblical scholars, instead of day-dreaming fantastic interpretations.

reply to post by atotheb


Nope, the fact that you reject Paul is proof that you love Jesus. But it is only your interpretation of Paul that is being rejected. Paul is very difficult to understand, if you think you will find the interpretation at church consider this:

Paul taught that every member, even the overseers or pastors, same person, were to work with their hands like the apostles. They were to be men who could take care of their own family. They were not to receive income from the church. The only ones that were allowed to receive any kind of gain from spreading the words were missionaries. And they were only allowed a place to sleep, food and possibly clothing, nothing more.

Paul once said that he took money from a church so he could go on a trip and he felt like he was stealing.

Paul also teaches a church not lead by any one speaker, but rather the church was a group of believers, who ate dinner at each other’s houses, shared in the Lord’s Supper, and everyone was encouraged to share their testimony.

You see here is where most people get confused, and as I have stated this is intentional.

False Teachers and the Love of Money 1 – Timothy 6:3-10

These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

You see Paul warns that false teachers will think that godliness is a means to financial gain, full of controversies and quarrels. I think 40,000 denominations could easily be considered controversy and quarrel. But what is Paul really talking about?

1 Corinthians 9:1-18 1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don’t we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who lack the right to not work for a living?

7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8 Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it
about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?

But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast. 16 For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

Do you see how this could be interpreted that it is ok to set up a church as we see it today. As some type of financial institution with paid workers? But look closely at what Paul says. The church under the law is set up where the teachers received their income from the congregation. Do you know that the church set up under the law also teaches the law, it is called tithing. So why does the church that says they teach Grace function like the church under the law?

The church set up under Grace does not include tithing, for that is a law. The church set up under grace is one where all are required to work to not be a burden; all members should be considered equal. In Acts it says people were selling everything they had to help the church. This sounds like a lot more than tithing, because it is not done under the law but under Grace.

2 Corinthians 12:11-18 11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,”[a] even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17 Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the SAME FOOTSTEPS BY THE SAME SPIRIT?

Paul clearly says here that Titus did the same proving that he followed the same spirit. Man cannot love both God and money. The church not only loves your money but in its current structure would not survive without your money. The foundation of the church is tithing, proving that the foundation is the law. Without the law the church is dead. We are not to live by the law but by the Holy Spirit. For if we live by the Spirit we will not fail to observe the law.

Do you see how easy it has been for the church to take what they like out of what Paul is saying, and build a church and doctrines that does not agree with Jesus or Paul? They have indeed seen godliness as a way to financial gain.

2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

I highly recommend you turn to the Holy Spirit to interpret the bible for you, because the church is a contradiction to the word of God.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you."

JOHN 16:13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH ..."

reply to post by jmdewey60
Ah ,the good bart ,bad bart ehrman ....Instead of believing what you think he is saying,understand what might be going on with the bad bart ..

William Lane Craig on Bart Ehrman (1 of 6)

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The good bart is a good scholar,.the bad bart useses falicies that can fool lay people like me and maybe you ...peace

reply to post by the2ofusr1

....Instead of believing what you think he is saying,understand what might be going on with the bad bart ..

This is a hypothetical you made up but it does not apply since there is not too much new to me in his book, Forged, and is stuff I had already found out about myself but it is useful to have it all collected into a single book for easy reference.
If he was somehow lying, there would be people all over him so if anything what he says is very conservative, meaning what he can defend with consensus opinion from other specialist scholars in his field.

OP - "Hope you liked... I will have much more in the future, in fact I could write a book on this alone. Be sure to join me for some crazy true stories in the near future. "

I'm sure that several of us would like to hear back from you to see if your opinion and understanding has changed somewhat. I realise that what you might be learning is disconcerting, as some of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ have given such great understanding of Paul's letters that fly in the face of many mainstream churches. Can you see that your internal fight of "obey Jesus and the law" is more against the popular church doctrines than what Paul actually wrote ? I pray that you come to the understanding that what Paul wrote is the gospel of Jesus, the Word, which is not what is preached in the world of mainstream Christianity. Our struggle is to preach the Word, Jesus, and the coming Kingdom of God! Amen!

reply to post by WhoKnows100

. . . Jesus, and the coming Kingdom of God! Amen!

If you read Paul's canon, meaning the canon he created himself by publishing the four letters, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, and Galatians, which were the core that the New Testament was built around, what you find is the people of the world coming to the knowledge of Jesus and receiving that Christ spirit, which is the enabling thing that makes the earth balanced by our good actions, and brings the universe from its state of suffering on account of the world's sins.
So, this is the explanation for the Gospel which Jesus preached, which is the Kingdom of God is at hand, which from our point of view means it has been here for a long time.

reply to post by the2ofusr1

William Lane Craig on Bart Ehrman (1 of 6)

Wikipedia has William Lane Craig as a supporter of Kalām cosmological argument, where in the article on that, it says:

The basic premise of all of these is that something caused the Universe to begin to exist, and this First Cause must be God.

This would be almost laughable if it was not so sad.
Something did cause the universe to come about but to say it was this one particular individual of the multiple mountain gods of the earth (meaning, YHWH of the Shaddayyin) is somewhat ridiculous.

In the YouTube video, Age of the universe - William Lane Craig, he says the earth is 12 billion years old and then says the Bible never says how old the earth is. Hmm, this sounds like a lie to me.

In the first video you linked to in your last post, Craig claims that the discrepancies in the NT text is only of a trivial nature. This is a lie. I think this person does himself exactly what he accuses Bart of, which is to say things which lay people are not going to know better than. Well this lay person does, and you could find out yourself if you study the variants.
These videos do not get into the subject I brought up which is forged books of the NT. So this is your attempt to give yourself an excuse to not look into the question of authorship by doing a character assassination on one writer who wrote a book on it. I would say your video evidence, to someone who studies the Bible, is not being totally honest and is partisan for his own theories which he admits was given funding to study.

These videos do not get into the subject I brought up which is forged books of the NT.

reply to post by jmdewey60
Yes you did say that eariler and I asked you for your sorce to say that ..I would think in order to have a forgery of a book ,you would need a original ...you say it is a forgery ,.source please ....peace

reply to post by WhoKnows100


If that is your mission then use his words... Not Pauls...

Btw, Paul does not speak for Jesus... Just so you know

reply to post by jmdewey60

So, this is the explanation for the Gospel which Jesus preached, which is the Kingdom of God is at hand, which from our point of view means it has been here for a long time.

Jesus had to preach the kingdom to the Jewish nation first ...but they rejected the king and murdered Him ...that rejection opened the door for the gentiles to enter the kingdom built up within the body of Christ and awaiting our king ...Paul explains this about the mystery that nobody knew as it was not in the old testament . ...peace

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WhoKnows100

 

If that is your mission then use his words... Not Pauls...

Btw, Paul does not speak for Jesus... Just so you know

I'm not sure what you mean by mission?
The OP has received many responses to the apparent "contradictions". All valid and useful for his study, pointing out that in the OP's specific examples it's actually him in error. The OP has agreed on a few occasions, but on others he responds only with further "contradictions". Or not at all.
Do I have a mission?
To spread the message of the gospel.

In fact, the OP is either doing one of two things:
1) he's just working to promote the heresy of "Jesus words only" OR
2) he's truly a believer that is realising that the Bible contradicts what the church is teaching. When a new believer starts to see this variance, the natural inclination is to play it safe and just use Mark, Luke, Matthew and John - instead of studying what the true gospel message is. And those of us who strive to study to show ourselves approved realise that the church doctrine uses scripture out of context to cause the great "falling away" which means A DEPARTURE FROM TRUTH. Men of lawlessness have been created in the hundred's of millions because people simply do not read scripture. And that's what the sheep in wolve's clothing pastors and priests bank on. They count on those millions of Christians to keep on sinning their way to judgement believing that "Paul said it's just grace" when that's a blatant and shameful lie.

The whole point is that the discrepancies arise between Jesus and popular church doctrine - not between Jesus and Paul. The OP has two options; realising this and study all scripture or continue on his path of legalism.

Paul doesn't speak for Jesus? Did i state that? You sound confident that he was not directed by the Holy Spirit. In which case, what's your take on Genesis, Deuteronomy, Mark, Luke or any of the other books in the Bible? Throw them all out according to your logic. And do you know, that is your prerogative to do so. But frankly, your viewpoint supports throwing all scripture in the rubbish bin.

God promises truth. I'll trust Him to teach. Every question that I have I study and pray to be led to the truth. Taking a predetermined stance that Paul is a deceiver is putting one's mind above God from the get-go and denying gospel derived from the Holy Spirit.

The scribes told Jesus that He was casting out demons with an unclean spirit. And we know His answer regarding blaspheming the Holy Spirit and how that was the unforgivable sin. There are many stating today that Pauls gospels were derived from no less than the deceiving evil spirits. What an absolute stupid and naive position to put oneself in - especially before studying to show yourself approved. The word “blaspheme” in Webster’s Dictionary means to “speak irreverently or profanely of or to God, to curse or revile.” Another part of their definition says “any remark or action held to be irreverent or disrespectful.” Many of the different Bible Dictionaries describe blasphemy as “insulting, cursing, lacking reverence for God, claiming deity.”

One had better 100% convinced before denying that Paul's epistles weren't written under the Holy Spirit's guidance before denying it.

reply to post by WhoKnows100
Amen ..

reply to post by the2ofusr1

Yes you did say that eariler and I asked you for your sorce to say that ..I would think in order to have a forgery of a book ,you would need a original ...you say it is a forgery ,.source please ....peace

Apparently you have not read Ehrman's book yet. You can download the Kindle version of it from Amazon for $12.99, then you would not be making uninformed questions like this.

ETA: also available at a discount in hardback for $10.53, which with another eligible book, to have a $25 total, you can get free supersaver shipping.

This is a hypothetical you made up but it does not apply since there is not too much new to me in his book, Forged, and is stuff I had already found out about myself but it is useful to have it all collected into a single book for easy reference.

in a earlier post you said you had allready knew what Bart Earham put in his book and thought it was a good collection of data ...

what is your source for what you said you aready knew that was in his book.........peace

reply to post by the2ofusr1

in a earlier post you said you had allready knew what Bart Earham put in his book and thought it was a good collection of data ...

what is your source for what you said you aready knew that was in his book.........peace

Anyone can click on my user name and go to my profile page and read in the comments section the books I read and there is a listing of most of the books I have bought in the last three years. Among those would be: Colossians As Pseudepigraphy , Mark Christopher Kiley, listed as #26 in a post from almost exactly two years ago.
That is one book you can easily find. The thing is that there are a lot of books printed which are scarce since they are written to a very small audience, so you have to search by Google, or your favorite search engine, to find references and quotes from other books. So this was what I was saying, Ehrman, being one of those people who such books would have been written for, would have at his disposal, the physical books to look at at his leisure. The fact that he compiled that dispersed information makes life simple for the regular person, who does not live on top of one of the most extensive theological libraries in the world.

reply to post by the2ofusr1

Jesus had to preach the kingdom to the Jewish nation first ...but they rejected the king and murdered Him ...that rejection opened the door for the gentiles to enter the kingdom built up within the body of Christ and awaiting our king ...Paul explains this about the mystery that nobody knew as it was not in the old testament . ...peace

You are commenting on something I said as a comment on someone else's post, which was not directed to me but to another earlier poster. I was just interjecting on something mentioned in passing and may not have had bearing on the actual subject of the other post. I wanted to take the opportunity this mention presented, to make a counter claim concerning the nature of the kingdom of God and the reign of Jesus.
So, it is actually not on topic but only indirectly for a particular moment.
The off-topic topic I brought up was about Paul's view on these things and you can look at something like Jude, or Revelation and imagine some great coming apocalypse (while ignoring the historical event that already happened) but by only reading Paul, you don't see a end of the world crises, and I specified earlier that this is referring to the four central letters of Paul, the ones he intended to be published as a whole, and not other letters later attached to them.
To Paul, the kingdom has come, there is no future stage, or "age", that is suddenly going to break into the middle of history and cause a radical change. That change is what proceeds along on an individual bases, from one person to the next, until the world as a humanity is acting according to spiritual principles and that slowly brings the universe back into harmony as God has intended all along.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

Paul doesn't speak for Jesus? Did i state that? You sound confident that he was not directed by the Holy Spirit. In which case, what's your take on Genesis, Deuteronomy, Mark, Luke or any of the other books in the Bible? Throw them all out according to your logic.

Genesis is flawed... as are many other books within the bible...

And i didn't say Toss them out either... do whatever you like to them... i personally have no need for most of the bible...

Throw them all out according to your logic. And do you know, that is your prerogative to do so. But frankly, your viewpoint supports throwing all scripture in the rubbish bin.

That is incorrect... I prefer to compare scripture with scripture to find truth... Compare his words to paul, they do not line up.... and he completely misses the mark at times.

One had better 100% convinced before denying that Paul's epistles weren't written under the Holy Spirit's guidance before denying it.

No worries about that.... i am 100% certain of what i say..

reply to post by Akragon


What did Paul say that does not agree with Christ? I keep looking for a contradiction but i can not find even one. I know the church has done much wrong twisting the interpretaition of Paul, but the church is not speaking for Paul or Christ. I believe that I can defend anything that Paul said and prove that he did not teach anything in opposition to Christ.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Akragon

 

What did Paul say that does not agree with Christ? I keep looking for a contradiction but i can not find even one. I know the church has done much wrong twisting the interpretaition of Paul, but the church is not speaking for Paul or Christ. I believe that I can defend anything that Paul said and prove that he did not teach anything in opposition to Christ.

Fair enough...

Heres the first BIG issue... the biggest in my mind but this is just to start

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Jesus did not consider himself equal with God... Not once. And i'll state for the record that "I and my Father are one" does not mean equality.

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.



More from paul...

1Cor 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

Read the rest of that chapter and see what else he tells his followers...

Does that sound like anything Jesus taught?

He regularly kept the company of sinners... adulterers, whores, publicans, tax collectors, lepers, and any other "unclean" person...



And back to paul...

Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (1 Cor. 4:15)

INCORRECT!!!

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And back to paul...

Therefore I write these things while absent, lest being present I may not deal sharply with you according to the authority which the Lord gave me for building up, and not for pulling down." (2 Corinthians 13:10)

Paul has NO authority what so ever... Accept over the MANY churches he established, who followed him... Not Jesus... as you can clearly see in his writings... he asked his followers to "imitate me".... Not Jesus.

*sigh* More from paul...

knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law." (Galatians 2:16)


James seems to have a problem with this... i would trust his word over one that DID NOT know Jesus personally... And Jesus would slap Paul for his Lies

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



Realize my friend i could do this ALL day... Pauls writings have so many issues, it almost makes me feel dirty reading his garbage....

So feel free to defend him... but you will lose...

And this is only the start of what you can find....

Good luck

Originally posted by Akragon

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Jesus did not consider himself equal with God... Not once. And i'll state for the record that "I and my Father are one" does not mean equality.

Jesus told his disciples that they would do the same things he did and even greater, because they would be filled with the same spirit. For every verse in the New Testament that appears to suggest that Jesus and God are the same, it could be said that the fullness of God, the Holy Spirit lived in Christ. Because of this he did have all the power and authority of the father during his ministry. And being that God put all things under the son he still has been given all the power and authority of God. Even though Christ did not think it necessary to be equal to God, as far as creation is concerned God has made him equal.

Personally I prefer this interpretation: Philippians 2:6 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

1Cor 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."
Read the rest of that chapter and see what else he tells his followers...

Does that sound like anything Jesus taught?
He regularly kept the company of sinners... adulterers, whores, publicans, tax collectors, lepers, and any other "unclean" person... 1

This passage is refering to a non repentant brother only.

Paul also kept the company of sinners. He is only giving instructions to the church meeting of believers. He is making the point that anyone who calls himself a brother and continues to sin, without coming to repentance should be thrown out of the church. They were gathering taking in the Lord’s Supper, anyone who is in sin and not repenting is not supposed to take part in the body and blood of Christ. If the person comes back to repentance they would be accepted back in. Notice he says that non believers are not to be judged like this. I imagine that non-believers were invited to come and have dinner and if they were not converted than they would not have taken part in the bread and wine, but may very well be invited back.

Anyone who does not repent for his sins cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit, because if they are they are committing the one unforgiveable sin blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

This agrees with Jesus. When Jesus forgave sin he often made it a point to tell them to sin no more. Expecting that they knowing they had been forgiven and healed by God that they should change their life to a life worthy of God. This is what Paul is saying we should expect from those who claim they are our brothers.

Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (1 Cor. 4:15)

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

I could also say that I became a teacher through the Gospel, but that would go against, no one should be called teacher. I believe that you are taking this verse to literally. If I say I have become your father or your teacher, it is not truly I but the Holy Spirit that is at work through me. Paul explains that all Scripture is from the Holy Spirit, which I know you disagree with also. But if you put the 2 points together, Paul is giving credit to the Holy Spirit for the Gospel which he is preaching. So he has become their father in the since that the Holy Spirit chose him to bring the good news.

I see no discrepancy as I myself think that I am to be a teacher and translator of the New Testament. Rather not I but the Holy Spirit at work in me. For those filled with the Holy Spirit, which is who he is talking to here I believe they would understand this concept.

Therefore I write these things while absent, lest being present I may not deal sharply with you according to the authority which the Lord gave me for building up, and not for pulling down." (2 Corinthians 13:10)

Paul has NO authority what so ever... Accept over the MANY churches he established, who followed him... Not Jesus... as you can clearly see in his writings... he asked his followers to "imitate me".... Not Jesus.

If no one had the authority to spread the good news than who was going to do it for the first 1500 years before the bible was printed? You can make the claim that Paul did not have the authority, although I disagree with you. I too believe that I have the authority to build up my brothers, but not to pull them down. Many of those who call themselves Christians do not follow Christ, who then should be the authority to correct them if not fellow believers. All believers have the authority to build up and correct their brothers.

knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law." (Galatians 2:16)

James seems to have a problem with this... i would trust his word over one that DID NOT know Jesus personally... And Jesus would slap Paul for his Lies

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You have completely missed the point of the entire message that Paul is teaching, which is the exact same message Jesus was teaching. Realize than when Jesus forgave the sinners especially the prostitutes they had not yet changed their lives. They were under the law but had not become anything other than sinners. They were given forgiveness, which is defined as Grace; they were expected to sin no more.

There is nothing that they or anyone could do other than have faith that makes them worthy of Grace. Grace is a gift given freely so no man can boast. This is what Jesus and Paul are saying. Paul explicitly says many times that believers were not to remain in sin, even telling the church to throw out the non repentant sinner. So by his life and his message he proves that you must have works to prove your faith.

The problem with this is you are forgiven without works. You were actually born forgiven; forgiveness is not something you work for. It is when you realize that you are forgiven that you are to live by the law of Grace and not by the Law of Moses. Grace is the justification that cannot be earned by works. This is the problem with Christians; they say that because they believed they have been forgiven. This is the FALSE teaching, they were forgiven from birth, they only realized they were forgiven when they accepted Christ.

Anyone that follows the law of Grace, which is to love your brother as yourself, and to love as Christ loved you, will not break the law of Moses, because the whole law depends on these.

Paul is not saying that you shouldn’t do good he is simply saying that you should not boast, because the gift of Grace you were given is apart from works. This does agree with Christ.

Paul by his ministry and his message in a whole expects all brothers to justify their faith in Grace by works as he. Grace is justified by faith without works so that no one may boast about receiving forgiveness. It is faith in Grace that results in works, how can one do the work of God if they have not accepted his message?

If Christians and the church could understand this than they would also understand that all were born forgiven and that they have only learned the truth and not earned the truth. Than maybe they would love the world and stop judging it, just like Paul is trying to say.

You are right we can do this all day, but you are wrong you cannot win. You may not agree with me but I will show you that thier is a way to understand Paul that agrees with Christ.