The book of Hebrews... truly divinely inspired?

reply to post by jmdewey60


What, whaa? Take a deep breath, ask God for uderstanding to instruct you where you need to be... and stick with the Scripture man. That other stuff is a wild goose ride... I used to ride it.

If I ever get the time I'll give you ATS'ers my full story in the last year. It's was like a scary movie for awhile, I thought insanity was coming on until I started going to different churches, and meeting with pastors behind the scenes. They've assured me that It's just Gods grace, and I'm not nuts. A very long story, and I hope to share it with you guys, I will if God wills.

reply to post by atotheb

It still stands that Paul is a hypocrite?
Acts 2:12 "he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived he began to draw back and separate himself..."

That was about Peter, and you can't take Acts as a real history, but what someone later pieced together along with a lot of creative fictionalizing.

reply to post by jmdewey60


He said he came to fullfil the law, not replace it. Deut. 13:2 "The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your hear and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him."

I know you don't think Paul was preaching another god as that's what Deut. is talking about, but that's exactly what he was doing. Teaching against even the apostles."If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours." Your saying the apostles forgot what God said and that Paul's spirit is somehow holier than theirs?

O.k. so you dismiss the book that has more condemning things about Paul than any other... all the times he's caught saying one thing and doing another and lying, but that book isn't inspired?

Well what about my last post on page three... address that. Still avoiding the hypocrite question?

And the other things he was teaching? Also some quoted in the last post.

reply to post by atotheb

What, whaa? Take a deep breath, ask God for uderstanding to instruct you where you need to be... and stick with the Scripture man. That other stuff is a wild goose ride... I used to ride it.

I'm not getting this from a book of Satan but from a professor of New Testament theology and someone who is influential in theological circles.
You have to face the reality that cosmology has changed from what it was in the Canaanite days to what it is in the New Testament and it includes the adoption of ideas from Greek philosophy and even Zoroastrianism, and there is evidence of it in the Bible. You can read books on this from Christian authors, and these are people not "out there" but well connected inside the church structure and supported in their research.
Read:
"Paul and the Stoics" by Troels Engberg-Pedersen
"Lord of the Cosmos: Mithras, Paul, and the Gospel of Mark" Michael Patella

Sorry, I forgot the world was crucified to Paul. Gal 6:14 "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

How about boasting in God's Word, or that might mean he would have to teach some of it right? Why doesn't Paul ever quote Jesus? Oh yeah, he has his own message to preach... almost as if he died for the world.

reply to post by sacgamer25


"Bible verse Acts 8: 14-17

14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. "

Oh, it's alright for you to quote Acts, but if I use it to call Paul out, it's out of the question.

reply to post by atotheb

He said he came to fullfil the law, not replace it.

If you think Jesus came to act out the law perfectly, then I would suggest to you to immediately renounce Christianity and, from this moment on, to call yourself a Jew because that is the road you are on and might as well not waste any time. And I resent the fact that you would even hint that you are somehow a Christian, so just stop even talking about it and head straight to your nearest synagogue and do not darken the door of a church ever again.
Jesus is above Moses and if you can not accept that, you are in the wrong religion and please leave. Christianity has no use for that sort of thought and will be better off without you, thank you very much.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by davidchin

 

. . . Satan can only do that which God allows . . .

The Old Testament Satan is not the same Satan as in the New Testament.
In the NT, Satan is the Cosmic Serpent, which is a natural occurring thing left over from the creation of the universe by Anankē. It does not explain it exactly that way in the NT but it is in there by the use of her name and how Jesus used it to describe how the cosmos works. Evil is the natural state of affairs and can't be helped but God is here to alleviate our suffering and is not the cause of it, not being the creator of the universe but who makes it possible for us to live in it.

O.k. I can dig that. Let me rephrase. Paul is one of the kings that the dragon gave power to... Not the dragon.
Dan 7:25 "he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the most high and oppress his saints and try to change set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him..." Dan 8:25 "He will cause deciet to prosper, and he will consider himself superior..."
This vision concerns the appointed time of the end, as does Habakkuk. Hab2:3 "the revelation waits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false."
Rev. 13:5 "The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words..."

These are prophecies to be revealed in the end.

I'm not saying we follow all the old rules. Just the main commandments. And of course, "what would Jesus do" in a decision. And following him and finding out what he wants from you takes alot more effort than... I accept that he died for me, now i'm going to heaven yay! Anyway, I need sleep, thanks for all your great input.

Which is a quote from a forgery, so built into this verse is the explanation for the forgery, to be considered as scripture so the forger's words will seem to have weight.

reply to post by jmdewey60
Do you have a source for what you are saying?

It still stands that Paul is a hypocrite?

reply to post by atotheb

[
paul at the time of pentacost was not in the picture


I thought it was peter that was acting the hypocrite....peace ps acts 2:12 is at pentacost

He said he came to fullfil the law, not replace it.

reply to post by atotheb
Yes He had to fufill all the proficies about Him ..The whole body of scripture is about Him ..peace

How about boasting in God's Word, or that might mean he would have to teach some of it right? Why doesn't Paul ever quote Jesus? Oh yeah, he has his own message to preach... almost as if he died for the world.

reply to post by atotheb
Paul had a special ministery .one was to go to the gentiles and the other was to reveil the mystery of the church ..hidden in God before the foundations of the world ..peace

atotheb Are you claming to be a end time prophet reveiling something ....peace

I am thinking this might be my last post in this thread ,but will try and answers to my privious post ..I will leave you all with these 2 links .. the second is better than the first ..peace this is a 26min podcast that touches on some of the issues of letters referred to in the new testament .. www.khouse.org...


Abraham had the gospel message in his day ..The promise made in the garden and the Hidden Message in Genesis 5 www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by atotheb
Sorry, I forgot the world was crucified to Paul. Gal 6:14 "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

How about boasting in God's Word, or that might mean he would have to teach some of it right? Why doesn't Paul ever quote Jesus? Oh yeah, he has his own message to preach... almost as if he died for the world.

Ok, I have a sister that is a Paul hater too and I hope that I can share some insight..
Because your brain has formed that opinion, you keep reading a meaning in to the scripture that is not there for those who don't have that bias.

Let me demonstrate. Your above quoted scripture in my eyes:
"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, which crucified the world to me and I to the world."

Your eyes;
" the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

Literal Young's Greek Translation
"And for me, let it not be -- to glory, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which to me the world hath been crucified, and I to the world;"

1 John 2:15
"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

OP, can you see how your bias is interfering with interpretation? Please don't get disheartened, for I can see in your own words where you have realised your errors in some places. There was a comment earlier on regarding a delay in the deceit of the Holy Spirit. This happens. If you take such a firm stance on a matter whilst a milk drinker, you can inadvertently resist His teaching. When you don't understand a passage, pray about, study and let Father make the connection for you. Let Him TEACH.

Your argument stems from the exact sticking point of my sister - "obey" and "law".
Paul argues that the fruits of the spirit are not under the law, because those fruits are a result of God's gift to you of Grace that resulted in faith. He makes the whole argument to his congregations that if the fruits of the spirit are not producing results (deeds/works), then the spirit is not present. Can you understand now WHY the false doctrine teachers proclaim that faith in Jesus Christ is the sole need for salvation - that it's perfectly acceptable to carry on sinning? Paul states the exact opposite - that saving faith is evidenced by a life that does not sin and that is OBEDIENT TO OUR FATHER'S WILL. What is sin? Transgression.

Saving faith is the result of the grace that God gifted to you. Can you understand why people want you to focus on following the law and minimising faith? Because then you are right back to square one trying to justify yourself, trying to make yourself righteous. When you stand in front of God it's Jesus' righteousness that will credited to you! Not your own. Jesus was the righteous one, and it's His blood that is going to cover your sins.
Trying to justify yourself is rejecting that gift. And realising just how important that gift is leads you to obedience.

Many of us struggle between faith and law and the balance. I do as I start to sense a more spiritual meaning behind the laws. Look to the law as guidance as to what is sinful, look to the commands of Jesus then work out your salvation in fear and trembling. Seek understanding from our teacher up above. Faith develops stronger week by week. Sure, test all scripture. I do each time I read Paul (because of my sister). But realise that your Faith grows day by day as you strive for saving faith. And know that if you focus on law keeping as opposed to working out saving faith which is EVEN MORE, then you are stuck with those Judeans who preferred their own path of justification.

Originally posted by atotheb
reply to post by abeverage

 

SNIP
2 Cor 11:22 "Are they hebews? So am I... Are they servants of Christ? I am more." 2 Cor. 12:5 "I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself except about my weaknesses."            Yup, sounds like everyone I've ever met that talks like that turns out to be a Bull---er.

Come on people, read Cor and pay attention to what he says.

What's happening in 2 Corinthians 11?

False apostles and preachers have been coming to the congregation..
" if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you PUT UP WITH IT easily enough."

What does Paul decide needs to be done since they've entertained false teachers?
"12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about."

So we see that false teachers have gone into the church, since he was there last, and are BOASTING ABOUT THEMSELVES.

How does Paul have to get his point across to this congregation? Does he not then prove a point to them? 

"16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then receive me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting." 17In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! "

OP, you are not reading carefully enough and taking a verse and trying to prove what YOU believe he is saying.

reply to post by atotheb


In the discussion with Peter he was not being a hypocrite. He was doing what brothers are supposed to do. When someone is doing something wrong you are to point it out. If the person is full of the spirit, the Holy Spirit will agree with the correction and in this case the Holy Spirit did agree and Peter was shown a better way. In the end we are guided by the Holy Spirit but we still live in the flesh. It is good for brothers to correct brothers.

but you are right in some ways he was a hypocrite and he openly acknowledged that he did not consider himself perfected in Christ. It is easy for me to say you need to love like Christ loves you, what is hard are for me to actually do it. You see in his letters he is saying what is right, because he is teaching the disciples. But he also in his letters acknowledges that while he considers his faith perfect, he does not believe that he has reached perfection, and he continues to strive for it.

Only Jesus was without sin, but if you are going to teach Jesus you must teach perfection, because that is the goal. Until we are made perfect by him we are not to stop running the race towards perfection. Keeping our eyes on the finish line which is heaven. This is what Paul was teaching and it is the truth.

So if I tell you be perfect in Christ yet I am not you could conclude that I am a hypocrite. But should I tell you anything less?

reply to post by the2ofusr1

Do you have a source for what you are saying?

You can start by reading "Forged: Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are" by Bart D. Ehrman.
But this is nothing new, and something biblical scholars have known about for a long time but up 'till now, not talked about in too public a way.