What are best ways to educate a skeptic?

Originally posted by mbkennel
Now that certain things have been declassified it is confirmed that certain early 'UFO' cases were in fact flights of unacknowledged aircraft or spacecraft, e.g. U-2 or CORONA. Presumably there are many others still classified.

If Aliens are visiting, it may be the case that the governments are hiding it. If Aliens are visiting, it is certain that Aliens are hiding it. They bear primary responsibility, right?

What if some of the enemies aren't on Earth?

That is all speculation.
There a bunch of other possibilities (endless perhaps) but that would be speculations and not facts. So I would stay to my three factual points when arguing with a skeptic:

1. Its mathematically and scientifically impossible for us to be the only life in the universe.
2. Our government has intentionally lied to us in the past. Whether it was for the greater good or not doesn't matter or change the fact that they have purposely lied to us.
3. Knowledge is power.

However, one thing that I do find interesting and perhaps one of the stronger points for the believers:
4. Ancient paintings and art appear to indicate that UFO have been around for a long time:
So you could allow yourself to conclude that Aliens must exist because its impossible for that technology to have existed back then.

However you could also not dismiss the fact that its possible for the artist of the time to include images of technology that doesn't exist. After all. we have done that and we do that often today , Ever see pictures of time machines , teleportation devices,flying cars, space colonies,etc.

Also with artists sometimes the object itself is not an actual physical interpretation of their vision. In addition, it is also not unlikely for science to turn science-fiction into reality.Therefore, that can do away with the fact that some of the objects seen today are some what representative of those ancient objects.

Like I said we are in a dirty state of knowledge where we can't prove either way that Aliens exist or that they don't exist. We can only say that there is enough information out there to indicate that we are not necessarily being told the truth or that we don't know the truth in regards to UFO (Alien controlled) and other strange mysterious , but that is it. Beyond that , its a leap of faith that we make and not based on facts. We basically have enough facts to allow us to speculate and come up with theories.

Originally posted by Jaellma
Usually when discussing the topic of UFOs and aliens, most people are open to the idea of life outside of our planet earth and the possibility of us being visited by beings from other places, whether extraterrestrial or inter/extra dimensional. In other cases, some people find it hard to believe any of these things.

While most scientists and most scientifically oriented skeptics indeed are not only open to the idea that life exists very probably elsewhere in the vast universe we reside in, but are almost certain that life is out there somewhere, few would embrace the idea that we are indeed being visited by ETs. The general consensus seems to be: possible? Yes, maybe. Probable? Not really, 'cause the evidence is just not really there or because the distances maybe just too vast to cross.

Originally posted by JaellmaThis has probably been discussed here before but I would like to know the best way to deal with a person who is a skeptic but appears to have some level of interest in knowing what's out there. What some or evidence or articles are available for the hard core skeptic to help sway their thinking? There are many points of reference out there but unfortunately many are not credible enough or are tainted.

Thoughts please?

I doubt you will be able to really sway a skeptic (just as I don't believe a skeptic can really sway a true believer to his point of view), but a few pointers: keep it civil, keep it rational, avoid logical fallacies, present cases that have remained in the the "unknown or undecided" category, while avoiding cases that have been proved to have been hoaxes. Also, your thread title is not a good start to achieve your ultimate goal, because it sounds like you have all the answers and all the truth and the poor skeptics are misguided and need to be educated on the truth (on a tangent: "What is truth?" Pontius Pilatus). What you should strive for is not an effort to educate us poor misguided skeptics, but to enter in a civil and hopefully constructive discussion on this matter. And finally, avoid youtube videos, especially if they "proof" etc. in the title. For the record I belong to the skeptics' camp, see first paragraph above and also the Carl Sagan quote in my signature.

If you ever see a UFO don't worry it's just a flying animal or a weather balloon, right?

Delete this post, it's a mistake...

[color=00CCFF]And to add more to my post on page 1. As a moderate and objective person who is not a believer (slightly leaning), nor skeptic, I say BOTH believers and skeptics need to be educated.

Skeptics need to learn some things:
Skepticm Failure 1 - they are not professional researchers here on ATS

They have no much understanding of why somethings are so to make a valid conclusion. Unknown things that remain unknown, someone making a thread and tagging it 'DEBUNKED' - you do realize your post or thread is Invalid? Who cares if you tag it 'Debunked' - whatever is unknown is unknown, this is not the case of the obvious hoaxes proven and seen like pictures on the internet obviously modified. Just because you think something like you think it to be is often incorrect.

Skepticism Failure 2 - even if you catch someonone in a lie, that does not automatically disregard all about that person as a lie.

A former employee, military, pilot, etc/ could be:
• not remembering some of the things he participated in many years ago
• purposly lying to hide the true facts or people behind it
• mixing truth with lies to disinform and confuse, or to ridicule true story and hide it in this way
• does that mean all has to be a lie because you think so?...

Example: I've worked at a DUMB/ some facility. I tell my story, I tell some untrue things, I make part of the story up or I confuse some facts. Your reaction: 'This is not true what I say, all is a lie, I have not worked there, there are no documents to verify it' - Do you really think because you can't find anything on the Internet!? about it, all I made up is a lie? Do you have the documents of current and former employees working there?

Why aren't they on the internet? So you don't see documents, therefore these people don't exist? No one is expecting you to believe in the Forest Fairy with the butterfly wings because there is no proof she doesn't exist. You know, when there are people who point to the direction of some true stories like - was Phil Schneider killed yes he was. Doubt it? - Ever heard of other ufologists and reseachers murdered or not found anywhere is that real too? - yes it is. SILENCERS also not real? Yes to all said. You are on a forum, you dont have anything to prove anything, you are just stating an opinion

Skepticism Failure 3 - if it is not explainable it has to be a lie, fake, non-existent.

Welcome to the 21st century! A century where people would generally realize we know a small part of all the secrets of the universe and all things not discovered yet. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have to add by any means necessary 'lights in the sky, chinese lanterns' 'flares' to everything so that it always has to be explainable.

Believers need to learn some things:
Believer Failure - they fall for everything on the Internet and think it is all true even the ones that are absolutely hoaxed..

The most annoying cases:
• YouTube videos - just n/c.. the dumbest users are making tons of BS videos and you're gonna waste your time watching them?
• for personal sightings - Stars, Satellites, ISS, shooting starts, Venus and Jupiter at this time of the year around 6 PM, could form a triangle with Sirius, birds - don't think that every object you see in the sky has to be a UFO yet alone ALIENS..
• Structures as in Bases, Ruins on MARS/MOON - stop calling rock formations and craters 'buildings' 'aliens' 'martians' 'trees' - there is just desert and rocks. No ruins, no pyramids
• Reading websites talking about CIVILIZATIONS? Like me taking all the brighters stars and constellations and making up species: Reptilians, Greys, Dracos, Bootesians, Siriusians, Altairians, Pleiadeans, Andromedieans, Cetusians (the fish people! wow!), Nordic from the Hyades, Arcturians, Aldebaranians, Taurian, Big Foot/Yeti, Mothmen, Insectoids
• Very annoying - the Earth is a hologram, space is a hologram, space is projected, Earth has inner Sun and continents - stop arguing with what science has clearly proven as a FACT, don't play games of imagination
• Aliens are demons - oh gawd.. horrible
• Personal stories like in GREY AREA: DREAMS, hallucinations, sleep paralysis during which ABDUCTIONS seeing Grey aliens, Brown Aliens, Reptoids, one guy mentioned seeing the CATWOMAN you know the one blonde and hot with cat eyes - the moment I read about it, it was FAKE FAKE MADE UP OR SCHIZOPHRENIA? Or can't distinguish reality? High on drugs, smoking, alcohol, mushrooms, pills with side effects? I fail to see how someone talking about how some creatured entered his room has anything but DREAM or hallucination or similar..

Conclusion: BOTH Skeptics and Believers are right and wrong. Both should doubt and believe, none of it entirely. Stay like me in the middle. If that's not enough for you to understand im just wasting my time here talking to the walls.

Originally posted by WalterRatlos
I doubt you will be able to really sway a skeptic (just as I don't believe a skeptic can really sway a true believer to his point of view),

And THAT is why this is a battle ground because neither extreme will budge. Its been said a believer needs no proof and a skeptic none will be accepted

Fortunately the rational people are somewhere in the middle and actually get some value out of most threads


The only thing that REALLY irks me is when skeptics are proven wrong, like happened in my McMoon thread they don't come out and say "Oops I was wrong - sorry about that" They just quietly disappear under the rocks and never speak of it again. THAT is why 'skeptics' get a bad rap To be fair ONE did apologize to me via U2U then later actually posted that in the thread. Kudos for that

Now my solution to educate skeptics is simple







See? A few hours and they will feel much better... though a few may need a bit longer

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Jaellma
Does this make you an eternal skeptic who doesn't believe in anything regardless of what you witness? What would make you go beyond this?

For Eddy? Nothing short of getting a ride and being probed would do it

I don't know about you, Zorgon, but I get my kicks on Route 66! Besides, aliens like me and they're gentle!

reply to post by VelvetSplash


Well that's true but I think in many cases, people are too skeptical...or maybe a better phrase would be "not open minded enough to research, investigate or look at what's being presented to them." You would hope that people would not dismiss things without even looking at them. Too many times in the past this has happened to, what we know now as, credible scientists. Two examples were flat earth... and that the sun revolved around the earth. People were just publicly villified for stating oposing theories or worse. It was horrible.

Originally posted by Jaellma
reply to post by nineix

 

I can understand how you feel. I felt the same way too watching the skies in North America and seeing things that I really couldn't classify as UFO but until I saw two separate ones in the remote areas of Central America, it changed my thinking.

[snip]

I believe if I had seen something like this on the West Coast in the US, I would have brushed it off as nothing but the venue where it happened and other local folks soberly talking of generations of occurrences have left me scratching my head.

Why do you need to localize unusual experiences? What you describe would have had validity anywhere on the planet. Experiencing it on the West Coast would have had the same scare value as it did in Central America. When I had my first experience on the West Coast I didn't give the experience any wow value that I would have given it on the East Coast. It was unusual and that was it.

BTW, the experience I had was seeing what I at first thought were 3 stars arranged in a widely-spaced row and then seeing each one haul of at tremendous speed towards the south. If I had experienced this while on my apartment building's roof location would not have mattered, I was blown away.

Originally posted by WalterRatlos

Originally posted by Jaellma
Usually when discussing the topic of UFOs and aliens, most people are open to the idea of life outside of our planet earth and the possibility of us being visited by beings from other places, whether extraterrestrial or inter/extra dimensional. In other cases, some people find it hard to believe any of these things.

While most scientists and most scientifically oriented skeptics indeed are not only open to the idea that life exists very probably elsewhere in the vast universe we reside in, but are almost certain that life is out there somewhere, few would embrace the idea that we are indeed being visited by ETs. The general consensus seems to be: possible? Yes, maybe. Probable? Not really, 'cause the evidence is just not really there or because the distances maybe just too vast to cross.

Originally posted by JaellmaThis has probably been discussed here before but I would like to know the best way to deal with a person who is a skeptic but appears to have some level of interest in knowing what's out there. What some or evidence or articles are available for the hard core skeptic to help sway their thinking? There are many points of reference out there but unfortunately many are not credible enough or are tainted.

Thoughts please?

I doubt you will be able to really sway a skeptic (just as I don't believe a skeptic can really sway a true believer to his point of view), but a few pointers: keep it civil, keep it rational, avoid logical fallacies, present cases that have remained in the the "unknown or undecided" category, while avoiding cases that have been proved to have been hoaxes. Also, your thread title is not a good start to achieve your ultimate goal, because it sounds like you have all the answers and all the truth and the poor skeptics are misguided and need to be educated on the truth (on a tangent: "What is truth?" Pontius Pilatus). What you should strive for is not an effort to educate us poor misguided skeptics, but to enter in a civil and hopefully constructive discussion on this matter. And finally, avoid youtube videos, especially if they "proof" etc. in the title. For the record I belong to the skeptics' camp, see first paragraph above and also the Carl Sagan quote in my signature.

I disagree with you. I am a "scientifically oriented" skeptic and not for one second am I ever going to say that I am open to the idea that life exists anywhere else outside of our planet. I don't operate on guessing. I operate on show me the evidence and, so far, no one has produced such evidence. All we have is speculation and assumption and that just is not enough. Courts don't operate on speculation and assumption, the system demands evidence and so do I.

Additionally, no one in his/her right mind can make the claim that we are being visited by ETs, aliens, whatever. We have a mystery that no one can solve. We have strange objects in our skies and other locations and we have no concept of what's inside these objects if there is anything inside them to begin with. I think it's really silly for some humans to think that they know the answer to the unknowable.

And I don't think you are a bona fide skeptic 'cause you seem to accept claims without evidence. No evidence for life other than humans, no claims can be supported.

Originally posted by zorgon

The only thing that REALLY irks me is when skeptics are proven wrong, like happened in my McMoon thread they don't come out and say "Oops I was wrong - sorry about that" They just quietly disappear under the rocks and never speak of it again. THAT is why 'skeptics' get a bad rap

Blind believers are just as bad though. Look at all those prophecy threads with dates for prophetic events, you get people starring and flagging the hell out of them and when the date passes it's like an old western saloon that's been suddenly cleared. What about those ufo threads we see where the believers say at the beginning ''there'll be a sceptic along in a minute to tell you it's ''swap gas'' or 'chinese lanterns'' and yet when the thread in question really is debunked where are those believers to say ''oh right, we were wrong?''

Why are you only focusing on sceptics with that particular statement, Zorgon? You know it goes both ways.

How do you educate a sceptic?

Put them in a room full of believers. It'll give the sceptic a fascinating insight into human psychology...

Skeptics, aliens are much smarter than you and they don't want to be seen. It's nothing like coming down to shake hands on the white house lawn.

reply to post by gortex

Some skeptics are already educated since they were once believers

Put me down under this category. I've been fascinated by UFOs and the idea of alien life since I was a kid watching X-Files, but I grew out of a lot of things as I got older and the UFO phenomenon was one of those things. Don't get me wrong I fully believe in UFOs, in the sense of UNIDENTIFIED flying objects, I've even seen one, but I have no idea what it was and won't pretend to. I have serious doubts that any of the objects people see are actually alien craft mainly because there's no good evidence that that's what people are seeing.

No one is going to argue that people aren't seeing unidentified objects in the sky, the issue is WHAT ARE THOSE OBJECTS. Is alien spacecraft really the BEST explanation in most cases, in even a good percentage of cases?

Want to sway a skeptic you need solid evidence, and I'm not talking about anecdotes or eye witness testimony, I mean physical scientific evidence. The sort of evidence that would convince an actual scientist would work just as well for me. The problem is there is no such evidence for alien visitations of Earth at this time. Will there be in the future? Maybe, who knows, but for now I and the rest of the skeptics remain unconvinced that aliens are among us.

I think some confusion arises because of the interpretation of the word Sceptic.
A sceptic is one who is unwiling to believe things.
If you think about it a Sceptic might be one who in past times was unwilling to believe the Earth was flat or that the Earth was the centre of the Cosmos.
No one should believe anything unless thay have proof it is so. Proof comes in many ways and the best proof comes from personal experience and confirmation. What is proof to one may not be proof to another.
One has to be open minded to consider all ideas.
Bieng open minded is setting aside pre conceived ideas and listening to new info and seeing how that mght be or might not be so. Being closed minded is to to doggedly stick to one's own pre set ideas in the face of new info.
I am not saying all new info is correct - far from it.

Reply to post by Jaellma

The best way to "educate" one of those "evil skeptics" that the true believers think are the real enemy is to confront them with three things.

Logic
Reason
Common sense

Those three things are what is holding us skeptics back from jumping on board with the daily "space brother" threads posted here daily.

And no, confronting a skeptic with decades worth of testimony or blury moon photos that show c3po will never work. In the end those that take that route end up generating more skeptics, but most here are too ignorant to even understand what I just said.

So, if your ignorant enough to worry about what it will take to convince those "evil skeptics" then you are also too ignorant to understand the answer and understand why skeptics exist in the first place.

Now, if you want to talk faith and religion concerning UFO and aliens......well what can I say other than you are your own worst enemy.

Which brings me to a point. Why do blind faith believers (or those too ignorant to think it through) think Internet skeptics are holding them back? Do they seriously lack the intelligence to understand what is needed for public acceptance of their claims? I fear that is the case. The inability to understand reality is why we are seen the way we are.

I really hope someone around here can finish my post........


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reply to post by Jaellma

The best way to "educate" one of those "evil skeptics" that the true believers think are the real enemy is to confront them with three things.

Logic
Reason
Common sense

Those three things are what is holding us skeptics back from jumping on board with the daily "space brother" threads posted here daily.

And no, confronting a skeptic with decades worth of testimony or blury moon photos that show c3po will never work. In the end those that take that route end up generating more skeptics, but most here are too ignorant to even understand what I just said.

So, if your ignorant enough to worry about what it will take to convince those "evil skeptics" then you are also too ignorant to understand the answer and understand why skeptics exist in the first place.

Now, if you want to talk faith and religion concerning UFO and aliens......well what can I say other than you are your own worst enemy.

Which brings me to a point. Why do blind faith believers (or those too ignorant to think it through) think Internet skeptics are holding them back? Do they seriously lack the intelligence to understand what is needed for public acceptance of their claims? I fear that is the case. The inability to understand reality is why we are seen the way we are.

I really hope someone around here can finish my post........


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I guess we're not that far apart in relation to UFOs although I haven't fully moved over to the Dark Side , though some here would probably disagree .
The reason ? ... because we don't have access to all the information , I'm in no doubt that the Governments of the world have both footage and radar traces of things that may well be ET spaceships , flying in our airspace and entering and leaving our atmosphere .

I also believe that a certain Government (U.S) has attempted to shoot down and has recovered these things because they believed them to be ET , no doubt prompted by the discoveries at Roswell .... yeah I know ..but the official story leaks worse than my old waterbed .

We have been and are being kept in the dark by people who no doubt believe they have good reason to do so , but until we know what they know we can't rule out the ET hypothesis , because it may well be true

The good skeptic does not rule out the "possibility" of an unexplained sighting being an alien. On the other hand, they don't say "it's unexplained; therefore it must be an alien."

Not all "unexplained" sightings necessarily have no explanation other than being aliens. Unexplained simply means we don't know the explanation. Sure, I suppose it could be aliens -- OR maybe it has some other "earthly" explanation that just has not been thought of.

Skeptics PFFFFT .

When was the last time a skeptic corrected themselves and fixed a screw up they made that made ?
They like to be on the side of pointing fingers that it is not possible , some of them even prefer to be considered a skeptic for their own safety .

Considered what it would be like converting a NARCISSIST and there you have it . They can dish it out but cannot take it . In certain areas they couldn't tell the difference between sheep sht and choke cherries .