Experiment: What would YOU do?

reply to post by ballisticmousse


That’s a cool response…

That’s along the lines of telling the store manager (appeal to authority).

I’m in the same realm of potential responses. I would likely tell someone. I wouldn’t confront the couple (after all, we’re speculating about what someone may/may not do to an animal IF they were to buy it). It’s not the same as if we saw these folks actually dog fighting!

Thanks!!

Incidentally, the original question is fundamentally flawed and shows a deep rooted arrogance of the OP.

Firstly, it assumes that we all live in the USA, just like a lot of other meatheads who inhabit this website, and which shows deep ignorance of other countries. For instance, in this case, it is worthwhile considering that, in Britain, the dog lobby has just as much, if not more political clout as the gun lobby in the US. For example, Kenneth Baker, one Home Secretary (what you would call Secretary of State in the US) tried to ban pitbulls outright - he was out of job just 6 weeks later.

Secondly, the question works on the basis that there is "no doubt" when this is never true. People presumed "not guilty" until found otherwise by a court. ...And there are reasons why they could be exactly that, eg they could be nutters who are on a day out from a psychiatric wing, they might hold diplomatic immunity which is highly likely in a tiown like Ottawa which has more embassies than any other city in the world, maybe they are undercover Police officers following up on a sting operation or maybe they are just mystery shoppers trying to establish how good a store clerk is at handling difficult situations.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist

Alright…here is a new angle for all of you who would respond to this situation in any way…Let’s switch the topic to another moral issue….gay marriage.

Gay marriage (or civil union) is illegal in most states. Let me pose this scenario and lets say its illegal in your state.

You’re in a store with your girlfriend (or boyfriend) shopping for wedding attire. You have a couple next to you doing the same thing; the difference being they are MAN and MAN. Do you say something? They are about to break the law and engage in a civil union (or marriage…which is illegal in your state). Should you speak out? Are you morally obligated to stop this act? After all, they have broken no law by SAYING they are getting married.

Originally posted by seabag
I have a question for everyone, but I’m particularly interested in the opinion of the people who claim to be constitutionalists.

I watched a program last night titled “What would you do” on one of the major networks. They use actors to put average people in controversial situations to gauge the public reaction. It’s a very interesting experiment…it reminds me of the old Candid Camera show back in the day (I’m in my 30’s so don’t give me any OLD MAN jokes).

So here is the scenario…

You’re with your wife (or husband) in a local pet store looking to adopt a dog. There is a couple there looking at a 2 year old pit bull that’s up for adoption. You two overhear this couple talking on the phone to someone about wanting to adopt this pit bull for the purpose of illegal dog fighting. They are talking loudly about how much money the dog could make them. There is no doubt what their intentions are.

Do you:
a) Mind your own business
b) Notify a store employee about what you heard
c) Confront the couple directly
d) Other

I look forward to hearing what you would do and why…

(Side note - I had a difference of opinion with my wife on this situation. I will refrain from saying what my first reaction might be in this situation until others have commented.)

edit on 28-1-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

I'd probably surreptitiously inform a manager ( not just a clerk ) what I heard from this couple. It's up to the ethics and operating guidelines of the store as to whether they choose to let these people "adopt" or not.
Taking their license plate has no effect if they do not buy the dog, unless you "stalk" the couple to make sure that they indeed did purchase it, and that to me is a bit dodgy and leaves you more open to being detected by them and having a direct and possibly nasty conflict with them as they confront you over your invasion of their "privacy".
The store should have ( hopefully ) guidelines concerning pet adoption and the buck stops there. I would in no way personally interact with these people at all. Borrowing big trouble, that, in my estimation.
Also, as someone else had said, fighting dogs are not usually found in ordinary pet stores. How would anyone know that a random two-year old "untrained" dog would be a good fighter? By that age it's probably already well-domesticated and would be a very poor candidate. These fighting dogs are provided largely by private breeders specifically for that "sport". Known bloodlines are important, too.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by ballisticmousse

That’s along the lines of telling the store manager (appeal to authority).

This is baldly untrue. The store manager has NO authority over customers with the sole exception if they are highest ranking available, non-incapacitated officer onboard a cruise ship in dire distress.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by speculativeoptimist

 

Alright…here is a new angle for all of you who would respond to this situation in any way…Let’s switch the topic to another moral issue….gay marriage.

Gay marriage (or civil union) is illegal in most states. Let me pose this scenario and lets say its illegal in your state.

You’re in a store with your girlfriend (or boyfriend) shopping for wedding attire. You have a couple next to you doing the same thing; the difference being they are MAN and MAN. Do you say something? They are about to break the law and engage in a civil union (or marriage…which is illegal in your state). Should you speak out? Are you morally obligated to stop this act? After all, they have broken no law by SAYING they are getting married.

edit on 28-1-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

Wow, from dog-fighting to gay marriage? You should have started another thread. Seriously.
The major difference is consenting adults are involved in this scenario, not a "dumb" animal,
None of my business, I say. Love comes in all shapes and sizes and genders. We need more of that in this world, don't you think?

Originally posted by ballisticmousse

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by ballisticmousse

That’s along the lines of telling the store manager (appeal to authority).

This is baldly untrue. The store manager has NO authority over customers with the sole exception if they are highest ranking available, non-incapacitated officer onboard a cruise ship in dire distress.

Huh?!? They are the ones who clarify and enforce store policies and rules for animal adoption. They have the authority to refuse anyone who does not meet those guidelines.

reply to post by seabag

Again, one should only notify the local Police or law enforcement auhorities as there may be nothing illegal in their intended activities on numerous grounds:-

1. How can you be sure that one is not a woman?
2. How can you be sure that one of them was not BORN a woman? Technically, under the law, your sex does not change in most legal authorities, such as in the UK. If born a woman, you remain LEGALLY a woman all your life, no matter what surgery you have performed.
3. They could be nutters.
4. They could be friends/brothers etc who happen to be getting married to women on the same day and be attending the store together in an attempt to obtainiing a discount for bulk (two) purchases.
5. They could be intending on getting married in a country/state where gay marriage is legal with the exception of Canada under the current law where gay marriage is invalid if those involved regularly reside in a place where gay marriage is not legal.
6. This could be a state where it is not recognise by the law, but is not illegal... it is simply technically a non-event.
7. The men concerned might both be holders of a CSQ and be about to become Canadian imigrants and take up legal residence in Canada ten minutes before the ceremony.
8. They could be undercover Police officers
9. They might be mystery shoppers checking up on a store clerk's ability to handle difficult situations.
10. They might be practical jokers.

...Just for starters.

reply to post by ballisticmousse

This is baldly untrue. The store manager has NO authority over customers with the sole exception if they are highest ranking available, non-incapacitated officer onboard a cruise ship in dire distress.

If it wasn’t an appeal to authority then why didn’t you just tell them yourself; you’re no authority unless you work ther or you’re a police officer.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by speculativeoptimist

 

Alright…here is a new angle for all of you who would respond to this situation in any way…Let’s switch the topic to another moral issue….gay marriage.

Gay marriage (or civil union) is illegal in most states. Let me pose this scenario and lets say its illegal in your state.

You’re in a store with your girlfriend (or boyfriend) shopping for wedding attire. You have a couple next to you doing the same thing; the difference being they are MAN and MAN. Do you say something? They are about to break the law and engage in a civil union (or marriage…which is illegal in your state). Should you speak out? Are you morally obligated to stop this act? After all, they have broken no law by SAYING they are getting married.

edit on 28-1-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

Same deal as before. Pretty much the same answers I gave on page 2 and the same justifications as well.

Huh?!? They are the ones who clarify and enforce store policies and rules for animal adoption. They have the authority to refuse anyone who does not meet those guidelines.

Store managers hve ONLY authority over their own stock, their premises and assets and there staff. They can refuse sale and order the people out but have no authority about ordinary potential "citizens arrest" should they be citizens. WIthout notifying people of specific regulations upon their entry into the store AND their consent to it, they have NO FURTHER AUTHORITY. They cannot control, dictate nor even censor the speech of those upon their premises. SHould they do so, they are in gross breach of the law and could and should likely be charged with assault UNLESS they also happen to be undercover Officers of the Law or be a member of an authorised relevant civilian emergency service such as the fire department or air sea rescue..

The major difference is consenting adults are involved in this scenario, not a "dumb" animal,

How do you know they are consenting? Maybe one is a nutcase psycho who is holding the others family tired up with a hand grenade strapped to them or maybe has a concealed weapon, say, a gun hidden his trousers.

For this rerason, one should call the Polcie and allow them to handle it.

Besides, this also rings up one other moral point. The Police are paid to enforce the law - who are you to do their job for them and threaten their need and future employment by handling yourself.

reply to post by Sandalphon


For goodness sake. Why does this even need be asked? DO THE RIGHT THING! If you're dealing with ambiguous constitutionalism, default to your innate sense of right and wrong.

No canine deserves to be purchased and raised for death matches.

reply to post by ballisticmousse

This is baldly untrue. The store manager has NO authority over customers with the sole exception if they are highest ranking available, non-incapacitated officer onboard a cruise ship in dire distress.

It IS an appeal to authority. If you were the authority you wouldn’t have appealed to someone else!

It’s not a bad thing…I’m just saying…it WAS appealing to SOMEONE ELSE to handle it.

reply to post by QueSeraSera

Wow, from dog-fighting to gay marriage? You should have started another thread. Seriously.

Sure! Are you UNCOMFORTABLE?

The major difference is consenting adults are involved in this scenario, not a "dumb" animal, None of my business, I say. Love comes in all shapes and sizes and genders. We need more of that in this world, don't you think?

Agreed! So would you respond the same way?

reply to post by seabag

The store manager IS NTO the authority. Technically the customer is the authority. Where terms of a contract are unclear, including verbal ones, the law construes AGAINST the writer or person trying to enforce it, hence the Store Manager without a consent to terms stated upon entering the premises has NO AUTHORITY above the basic of refusing to trade and requiring the person to lleave the store.

reply to post by ballisticmousse

Store managers hve ONLY authority over their own stock, their premises and assets and there staff. They can refuse sale and order the people out but have no authority about ordinary potential "citizens arrest" should they be citizens. WIthout notifying people of specific regulations upon their entry into the store AND their consent to it, they have NO FURTHER AUTHORITY. They cannot control, dictate nor even censor the speech of those upon their premises. SHould they do so, they are in gross breach of the law and could and should likely be charged with assault UNLESS they also happen to be undercover Officers of the Law or be a member of an authorised relevant civilian emergency service such as the fire department or air sea rescue..

HUH? QueSeraSera was correct. The store manager has every right to deny service or sale. The manager doesn’t have to allow anyone to adopt an animal!

I’m not sure how long he/she would be employed if they kept denying adoption on a regular basis but…in this scenario I think the manager would be OK with his/her boss for denying the transaction.

Originally posted by rexusdiablos
reply to post by Sandalphon

 

No canine deserves to be purchased and raised for death matches.

UNder the law, this is technically untrue. Police dogs are specifically bred PRIMARILY for the purpose that if a law enforcement officer is trying to take on an armed criminal, the dog is sent in to take on the suspect and take the bullets instead of the officer, in short, the primary task of Police dogs is to engage in death matches with armed suspects.

reply to post by seabag

Although the store manager has the authority to refuse adoptions, he does nto have other authority such as prohibit visitors from making telephone calls nor censor them nor to humiliate them nor to use force to enforce other actions such as demanding that they call the people back to cancel the dog fight nor to keep their money even lock them in the store until they change their mind.

reply to post by ballisticmousse

Although the store manager has the authority to refuse adoptions, he does nto have other authority such as prohibit visitors from making telephone calls nor censor them nor to humiliate them nor to use force to enforce other actions such as demanding that they call the people back to cancel the dog fight nor to keep their money even lock them in the store until they change their mind.

Are you an ambulance chaser?

Of course the manger can’t do that! The manager can deny sale.