God is Time

Before we embark on our little adventure into hypothesis, I would like to preface this thread with a few ideological ground rules that, if kept in the backs of our minds ought to keep our discussion on track.

First of all, I understand that time is a figment. I concede that it's just an illusion generated within the confines of being stuck here in four dimensions. I am taking for granted the ideas of heliocentric and universal time. I think we all understand the concepts. I'm not saying that time can't be bent or consumed by other anomalies in nature. We all know the working theories of what happens to time in the presence of a black-hole. And I am not hypothesizing on the likelihood of mankind ever learning to harness these exceptions-to-the-rule for the purpose of creating the illusion of controlling time. But, if time is an illusion, what is the control of an illusion at the end of the day, really?

Secondly, I would like to point out that I do not believe in a god as an actual being. This is not a religious post. So, I would prefer this thread not descend into a theological discussion as to the actual nature of the Judeo-Christian god (or an afterlife), but instead that we deal with this on a more metaphysical level and with a less defined nature. I see all the past and present day “gods” as the inevitable out come of the topic that we are here to contemplate.

It occurred to me sometime ago, that humanity gives to god(s) certain attributes that have a striking resemblance to the attributes of time as the human perceives time to be. For instance, there are many versions of god that describe “him” as having always been and that he always will be; he is the “alpha and omega”, as it were. Naturally, we see the correlation to how the human perceives linear/cyclical time. To humanity, it might as well be that time is the alpha and omega. In perspective with the human's infinitesimally small lifespan the lifespan of the universe is practically on an eternal scale. (As a side note, god is often a “father”. So also is time. Father time and God the Father....interesting.)

Often, but not always (i.e. Greek mythology), god knows all. He is omniscient. It's a stretch I know, but time could also be considered to be all knowing. Consider the journey of sound. There exists in the deepest reaches of outer space to this very day, the first ever broadcast sounds of mankind bouncing and pinging of the planets and stars. These parts of the past still exist somewhere and always will. There are many theories on cyclical time that would mean that time past is still happening, that time future already has and that time present is both in the past and the future simultaneously. (Would this allow for different energies to “bleed” into another time frame? Perhaps the origin of premonition and prediction? Perhaps an explanation for the siting of “ghosts”?) If a camera is pointed deep enough into space we can take a picture of the universe how it existed millions if years ago. We are literally taking a picture of the past. Hence, my saying that time “knows” all. I am speaking collectively and comprehensively of it's accumulated “knowledge” across the eons.

Many theological trains of thought centre around the justice of their particular god. If we step back and look at the unbiased and unforgiving nature of time, I feel we can see connections here, as well. Time waits for no one. It passes it's judgement on us all. Eventually, it weighs it's even and deliberate conviction on every one and every thing in it's path. It is “not a respecter of persons”. There seems to be a certain level of “justice” behind time.

In much the same way that nature always wins (the force of water on this planet, specifically) against constructs of stone and earth (natural or man made), time wins against the universe itself. It erodes everything in it's way. After our universe grows cold at the “end of time”, time will continue forward whilst everything else stands still,even if it is for a mere fraction of a second. Even then, I have to wonder, can we really say time has ended just because it is in retreat? Does a yo-yo cease to be a yo-yo on it's return to the palm from which it was thrown?
Once the universe reaches the singularity where time is said not to exist would it not remain in singularity except a “time” greater than the singularity moves forward?

I also have to ponder god existing everywhere; that he is omnipresent. I think we have all seen artistic renderings of what things look like from several dimensions out, yes? The multiverse appearing as blobs and loops and drops of water. Each universe slightly different. Each organized in a strange and fantastical way leaving this one as a unique rarity and able to support life and our silly little discussion here. But consider, the existence of time in each one. Although, elements of this universe might not exist in others (elements like gravity and light) I am pretty sure time has to, in one form or another, exist in all of them. Each universe expands and contracts, in and out from it's singularity. Would it not make sense then to say that time has to exist in each? Is it a possibility that there are universes that sit completely stagnant with no time at all? Or is time the one constant component of every universe that exists? I digress. Leaving that for another thread in a different forum and remaining within the confines of these four dimensions, we can still see that time is indeed a natural “deity”, in that no matter which way we are going in linear time, it is time that “controls” our course, and the inevitability of our demise.

So, I arrive here at my final point, and though it is not an attribute of time in as much as it is a reaction of the human to the nature of time, I still feel the following should be noted. I think that in the formative years of human evolution the mushy little brain could not conceive the scope of time and so, hardwired into the very genetic make up, was laid the ground work for the concept of what is called “god”. I see it as biology's way of framing a concept that is far to large for the early organic to comprehend. As the early human began conquering the elements around him it became quickly apparent that one element to his existence was out of his control. He could swim under water. He could channel it and divert it and move it around. He could smash stone and carve it and make of it tools and weapons. He could light fire and put it on the end of torches and burn down anything he wished with it. He could track and sort the heavens, he could breed and control the beasts but the one thing that he could not contemplate even a remote chance of dominating was time.

Present day, society has come to worship time as the god of gods. The billions of dollars pumped into the cosmetic industry and the countless life forms “sacrificed” at it's alter as “test subjects” or from whom is hoped to glean some useful chemical compound, all point towards the worship or defiance of time. The millions and millions of dollars spent on cosmetic surgery; the never ending quest for longevity; the struggle to produce construction materials that can “stand the test of time”; the wars raged nation against nation for the sake of a certain value placed in “the long run”; the fascination with the past and the future (any point in time but the “now”); the paramount amount of energy spent on this very site debating the theories on and predictions of the end of human time on this planet; the billions spent probing the depths of our universe to find “the beginning”; the relentless way the human scours the planet looking for clues to it's biological, ideological and physiological roots; the consumer based society constructed to help put a band-aide on the painful realization that none of this can ease the burning of the all-consuming preoccupation with time and it's march forward; all of these things direct evidence of humanity's submission and/or defiance to the god of time. I am not passing nor attempting to pass moral or ethical judgement on any of these things. I am simply observing what I see.

The human race runs around everyday, a slave of time. Preoccupying every moment with an attention to the clock. The human can not help himself but to plan the next moment and micromanage every second. It seems every other year or so this university or the next comes out with a study outlining the detrimental effects that the current multitasking, time-obsessive society is having on both the physical and mental health of the species as a whole but yet, the behaviour continues regardless. The race continues to worship the clock, keeping it ever in the forefront of their collective minds.

It's all a matter of time.

What are your thoughts? By the by, this is my first thread on this website, so take it easy

I really enjoyed reading your thoughts and like the way you have pondered over the thoughts of God and Time. I have no idea but I will say this ...this is something that has come and gone within my thought frame as well.

I have concluded so far that God in my opinion is ALL things. I can't narrow down or corner "God".

He is the Creator of Time along with everything else and we are also in assistance with an on going Creation.

Time as understood by the Human is said to be much different for the Spirit. It can indeed be manipulated if the latter sentence is true.

reply to post by Philodemus

This is my first thread on this website, so take it easy

As you can see if you look to the left of this paragraph, I have been on this website for more than six years. Yours may be the best-written post I have ever read on it.

You make an elegant analogical case for your proposition – one that, should you wish, could easily be expanded into a book-length essay, every one of your analogies being developed into a separate chapter. Consider writing that essay. A superior example of the way such things are done is the book Frozen Desire by James Buchan.

A few nits need picking. Ordinarily I wouldn't bother, but what you have written is of almost professional standard and could be far better than that with some necessary editing. First,

Consider the journey of sound. There exists in the deepest reaches of outer space to this very day, the first ever broadcast sounds of mankind bouncing and pinging of the planets and stars. These parts of the past still exist somewhere and always will.

Science is tricky. Never assume you know something without checking it out. There are two errors in the above, both of which are deleterious to your credibility among scientifically literate readers. First, you are mixing up sound and radio waves, which are actually a kind of 'light' and quite different from sound waves. Second, both sound waves and radio waves are subject to an inverse-square law which makes them decrease greatly in amplitude as they travel farther and farther from their source. In both cases the amplitude ('loudness' in the case of sound waves) eventually drops to the level of ambient sonic or electromagnetic 'noise', at which point they cease to be effectively detectable. Very powerful radio sources are detectable right to the limit of the visible universe, but the past we see when we look far out in space is only a gross outline, entirely lacking in detail.

This isn't fatal to your thesis, but understanding it would have helped you manage the analogy better.

Here's another troublesome bit from a science point of view:

The multiverse appearing as blobs and loops and drops of water. Each universe slightly different. Each organized in a strange and fantastical way...

This is speculative pop science based on string theory. We have no proof of the existence of any universe other than this one, nor indeed, by definition, can such proof ever be found. But perhaps other universes do exist – we cannot prove they don't, either. All you needed to do was write something like, 'According to string theorists, there is a multitude of universes, which they visualize appearing as blobs and loops and drops of water...'

A third unfortunate scientific error:

Each universe expands and contracts, in and out from it's singularity.

Oh no, it doesn't. That all depends on the initial conditions. A universe can go on expanding for ever, or reach a limiting volume and then collapse back into a Big Crunch (which may then, indeed, cyclically produce a Big Bang), or it could, just possibly, attain a kind of equilibrium between gravity and expansion/inflation known as a 'steady state'. Once again, your error is not fatal to the particular analogy you are drawing from the image; time, too, is conceived as cyclic, linear and eternal. All you need to do is show yourself to be correctly informed (for the sake of your thesis, whose credibility is otherwise impugned).

Finally, and for heaven's sake, learn when to use 'its' and when to use 'it's'. Such solecisms are of no consequence when perpetrated by groundlings and footsoldiers, but you are neither. I have earned a good living with my pen for over thirty years and know what I am talking about: If you aren't aware of it already, it is my pleasure to inform you that you have a writer's mind – and a pretty good prose style, too. You're wasted on Above Top Secret; go professional.

Enough flattery. Go and write.

when u force things down of course u r the king of time, who would care to move for inferiority freedom and facts existence,

reply to post by Astyanax


Thank you very much for your criticisms. They were constructive and diplomatically dealt, with just enough zing to make your points imperative.

I am aware that I made some jumps and didn't give credit, for instance to my assumptions about string theory, and I knew someone would call me out. Thanks!

As far as sound waves go, I said "first ever broadcasts sounds" of mankind. I did not delineate whether I was speaking about sound or radio waves. Clearly, with someone of your calibre reading, I should have.

I deeply apologize for the misspellings of “it's”. Terribly sorry. I should have spent the time doing one more reread.

Lastly, thank you for your suggestions as far as reading literature. I can't wait to dive in for a closer look.

Thank you again for stroking my ego and for helping me better myself.

I do write. Ah, the anonymity of the internet!

Cheers

Originally posted by absolutely
when u force things down of course u r the king of time, who would care to move for inferiority freedom and facts existence,

Whether you agree or disagree or are impartial to the points I have made, I can not tell. Although I do not consider myself the smartest and brightest this planet has to offer, I have to tell you that I try to make an effort to communicate my pondering as clearly and accurately as I can. You sir, have confused me greatly. I put a bit of effort into my post and your reply was disheartening, unduly abbreviated, and so lacking in proper grammar that I'm not sure what you were trying to imply or what I am to infer.

reply to post by MamaJ




I appreciate your response and I am grateful that you stuck with it even though I prefaced the thread with the notion that I do not believe in a creator. Thank you for setting aside the ideal for the great good of open discussion.
It gives me hope when preference can be ignored for edmonishment of intellect.....even if for a time.

Well, "God" is supposedly a lot of things. That's the problem. It's hard to reconcile the notion that God can be an abstract concept like "time" or "love" with the same thing being an infinite, omnipresent and omnipotent intelligent entity that also generally looks like a human being, and makes a point of helping Tim Tebow win a football game.

God is ignorance. I find that replacing the word "God" in a sentence with "I don't know what" doesn't change the meaning much at all.

reply to post by Blue Shift


It's also important to point out that God's son was born at the turn of the millennium in Israel and somehow ended up a white dude with shoulder length hair....Hmmmm, interestingly twisted.

As I said, I don't believe in creator god. My thesis was clear. Ignorance is indeed a god of gods.

Awesome thread,

you say god is time, but is time aware? or does it have will or understanding?

this will come out sloppy but what im trying to express is....

the idea of time occurs on many or all levels of scale... our days are expressed by our planet revolving around the sun, and then we have atomic seconds, which build up to form minutes and hours to days... days spinning around the sun creates a year... and then time is also irrelevant to those clocks, but a highly complex mathematical logarithm in and of the physical body, with energy inputs, growth spurts, cell births and deaths, the rate of those changing are also a rate of "time" id say... which are all effected and have been created by the macro planetary events.... so on the macro level stars being born, and gasses and unimaginable amounts of energy and force and speed colliding, these combinations, are due to the fact that there is constant motion, constant flux, which is time, if all things stood still there would be no time, but because there is progress, and because once something occurs it cannot be stopped or brought back ( an asteroid hitting a planet) it is this ability of flow, or existence of flow, which creates all events and things, forms and ways, since the first flow...

reply to post by ImaFungi


I know what you are getting at, sloppy as it is. And I thank you for contributing to the discussion. However, I am not here to hypothesizes about the "awareness" of time. I don't even really care to do so.
I do not believe in god. I believe that human has the concept of god and has given it attributes which mirror something that is in nature. That's it. That's the sum of it.

Maybe after I really work all the bugs out of my theory I can take the next steps. Thanks again.

reply to post by Philodemus


you cant think in truth because you mean to profit from lies in order to deny inferiority from glorifying its creations life

while in truth all u end up saying, is inferiority being all

if humans cant dominate time then time do not exist, you focus on meaning existence for powers that you miss the recognition to what exist

objective absolute superiority is the opposite of time, reality

any honest conscious free sense experience the reality of its own free constant existence ends, while it is aware that absolute freedom is the reason of its reality constancy which lead to the knowledge of its inferiority to any objective reality sense that belong to else superior freedom existence constancy

a lot of free conscious choose like yourself to not admit existence being real to avoid facing their true dimension of freedom facts, either in limiting extremely their free will for positive life projected on objective existence through the justification that all is one time reality
or in stretching extremely their free will for superior existence by meaning the possession of objective elses wills freedom as much as it is possible

Definitely an interesting theory. I wonder if that may be overthinking things a bit though.I have always felt that people believed in god because they need to think that there is something more to their existence then just the physical. That while their body dies their conscience lives on for eternity and that they will see their lost loved ones again and be with them for eternity. It gives them a sense of continuity and of meaning. Funny how belief god almost always comes with an afterlife attached to it! Most people fear death more than anything else. The concept that is" far to large to comprehend" or "to conceive the scope of", is death, which is the end of time for the individual. While time may be endless our consciousness is not. The concept we struggle with has to do with the end of ones individual consciousness which is in effect the end of time for that individual. Of course I could be wrong just sharing my thoughts either way it was a great post thanks for it. Sorry I cant write nearly as well as you guys but I tried!

reply to post by Philodemus

It's been said that God is among other things, light, and to a singal photon of light, all causation and therefore time itself has ceased.

As far as I know, God is timeless, infinite, the unmoved mover, the first/last cause, and the sum over history, and therefore is not subject to time.

From my own experiences, from ah time to time, I've noticed that God seems to know in advance what's going to happen, which is very unusual, since it implies a type of superdeterminism, and yet, we are free to choose and have free-will, so how could he know beforehand what we'll do, or where we'll be? Then again, God is almighty and all-powerful, and so I guess you just can't put anything past him!

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to describe is that God, at least as I've experienced God, is FASTER than time itself, and seems to exist in a hidden domain of synchronistic simultaneity capable of defying time and causality where uhm needed or as may be appropriate in his infinite wisdom and according to his perfect will. The beauty of this, imho, is that the all-good God who alone is trustworthy and true, cannot be surpassed, and his eternal throne can never be usurped or his kingdom shaken, ever. Strangely, or mysteriously, however, God generally remains hidden, or "at a distance" while employing his creation, us included, as the means by which he demonstrates his power at the most subtle levels ie: he might allow a certain amount of spiritual attack by adversarial or evil "powers" simply in order to reveal before certain observers, his ability to protect and stand guard over those he loves, who may even be, by human standards, unlovable. One thing I do know is that he really loves those who love him for the right reasons, and that he has no interest in aiding those who would seek to abuse power, or worse, try to somehow use secret knowledge about God to steal or hijack and misuse his power for selfish gain, and no mere creature, no matter how powerful, whether on earth or somewhere in the starry heavens above can surpass the most high God of truth and justice. God can never be held captive by any power or principality, and last but not least, God is not evil, nor is God the "devil" "who" is nothing more than systemic evil as a type of illness, or, some form of occult "magic" which is the most offensive thing to God in the universe since it's aim is to seek to replace God and play God, while instilling fear as a point of leverage by which to gain and hold power over God's own children &/or his creation.

Originally posted by JonathanNicholas
Definitely an interesting theory. I wonder if that may be overthinking things a bit though.I have always felt that people believed in god because they need to think that there is something more to their existence then just the physical. That while their body dies their conscience lives on for eternity and that they will see their lost loved ones again and be with them for eternity. It gives them a sense of continuity and of meaning. Funny how belief god almost always comes with an afterlife attached to it! Most people fear death more than anything else. The concept that is" far to large to comprehend" or "to conceive the scope of", is death, which is the end of time for the individual. While time may be endless our consciousness is not. The concept we struggle with has to do with the end of ones individual consciousness which is in effect the end of time for that individual. Of course I could be wrong just sharing my thoughts either way it was a great post thanks for it. Sorry I cant write nearly as well as you guys but I tried!

i agree hundred percent, death kills unfortunately reality true value, it is all evil anyway

I thought god was the 10th dimension itself. Not alive or dead, it just is what it is a system of everything that exist.

reply to post by Alyssa

God can also be considered the Tao or the Akashic Field or the Zero Point Field, but many among us, some pretty brilliant modern physicists included are coming to the conclusion that as an informational processing matrix or continuum, in eternity, that "it" has had plenty of time to become self aware, that is, if the whole thing didn't begin with the end already in mind so to speak, thus making creation itself an intent of the will as an act performed for a highly developed reason, which I believe is to both have varied experience and to SHARE in mutuality, thus creating the possibility for LOVE between two or more as that between a beloved and beloved other making of love the very reason and thus the first/last cause of all creation.

"I was with you from before the very foundation of the world."

"Therefore, do not be afraid, be of good cheer and do not let your hearts be troubled, little ones, because it pleased your heavenly father to share his eternal kingdom with all his children." (paraphrased)

reply to post by absolutely

Please do not get me wrong, but I was wondering if there was any way that you could possibly get someone you know to retype your message for me?

I know you are trying now to make a deliberate point, but I think there might be a language barrier here. Your grammar and punctuation are so sparse that I think we need some outside help with translation.

That said, I want to make it perfectly clear I have no intention of profiting from any of my thoughts. They are only thoughts, mere pondering from someone who was raised a strict Baptist and who swirled down the tunnel of religion and into the darkest days of life until I realized that anything outside of nature is merely speculation; my post and it's contents included.

But if I am to gather your intent correctly you are preaching a faith in a higher being; a creator. And I'm pretty sure I said I wasn't here to debate that. I have no problem debating those issues in the proper forum. I will, in the future, start my own (trolling) thread (that goes nowhere) and where we can get further intrenched in our original thoughts on the existence of a “space-buddy”. Until then, would it be too much to ask if we put preference of BELIEF aside?

Outside of that, my original post was not written with malice towards those with faith. I have no real problem with those who choose to believe. I have not intention of starting a debate on such a topic here. Bottom line. But if those with "faith" pick a fight where there is not a fight to begin with, it certainly leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those unfortunate enough to get caught in the crossfire.

And lastly, stop using "txting" shorthand. It is part of the reason our modern society is slowly becoming illiterate and is an affront to legitimate language and communication, as well as the most efficient way to decimate one's credibility.