USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For F/A-22, Changes In Training

ok i gotta tell this 2 all of u.
i knw a dude who is a lot into weapons, and the other day we were talkin about the advntg of intrnt. so i just happen to tell him that i found a video on the net of a sukhoi doin a -ve G cobra. ofcourse the video was on ats.
this guy tells me "yeah my cousin does that."
i'm like what? then he told me that his cousins in the IAF. and flies a Su-30MKI.
so the usual stuff talkin started. i asked him to tell me the truth behind the Indo-US air exercises.
he inquired from his cousin and this is what he told me[ or rather his cousin told him or rather his cousin could tell him ]>>>>
the matchn was pretty even & so were the scores. no country could claim a point. but yes the USAF was shocked by our dogfight tactics. but we still have a lot 2 do in BVR tactics. The World was told a different story for political reasons.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
I don't know about now, but I do remember reading that a lot of U.S. Air Force pilots, pre-9/11, were leaving due to the fact that they weren't flying enough; who wants to be a jet fighter pilot, and only fly 8 hours a month. A lot of the pilots said they hated that, and also, they didn't feel competent as fighter pilots, as their training was too cut. This shortage of U.S. Air Force pilots has been fixed some, post-9/11, as more people have joined up, I don't know if they have upped the ante for the training though."






Where do you get your data on USAF training sortie hours, pre, or post 9/11?? Believe you me, if you have ever been around an F-15C base, more than ample, in fact, in my opinion, sometimes excessive time(hours) are spent on pilot training/exercise sorties. Maybe in the ANG, pilots were getting only 8 hours of training per month, but on the average, active C-model pilots have been getting upwards of 8-11 hours per week, both pre and post-9/11.



[edit on 17-1-2005 by Kyle325is]

Who is this su-30 pilot of yours Vishu?? find out for me please...
What squadron?..20th or 30th..?
Su-30 MKIs weren't involed in Cope India though they were flown to Gwalior..and Su-30s were used..

This is a little late, but somebody on here mentioned that the F-15s used in Cope India didn't have the updated 100km! radar. Like it would have mattered anyways...

"The Su-30MKI features an all-weather, digital multi-mode, dual frequency, forward facing NIIP N-011M radar which has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 targets and engage the 8 most threatening simultaneously. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. The radar is combined with a helmet mounted sight system, which allows the pilot to turn his head in a 90º field of view, lock on to a target and launch the TVC-capable R-73RDM2 missile. The radar's forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation. The N-011M ensures a 20 metre resolution detection of large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and of small size ones - at a distance of 120 km. "

source - www.bharat-rakshak.com...

dammit for once, can these arrogant americans realize that their aircraft isn't superior? Who gives a sh!t about your flawless F-15 records, they always fought inferior aircraft. Bring the real competition and your F-15 and F-16s will put the tail in between their legs.

It's been proven that even SU-30s let alone SU-30MKIs are superior to F-15, F-16, and F-18.

Originally posted by Kyle325is

I don't know about now, but I do remember reading that a lot of U.S. Air Force pilots, pre-9/11, were leaving due to the fact that they weren't flying enough; who wants to be a jet fighter pilot, and only fly 8 hours a month. A lot of the pilots said they hated that, and also, they didn't feel competent as fighter pilots, as their training was too cut. This shortage of U.S. Air Force pilots has been fixed some, post-9/11, as more people have joined up, I don't know if they have upped the ante for the training though."






Where do you get your data on USAF training sortie hours, pre, or post 9/11?? Believe you me, if you have ever been around an F-15C base, more than ample, in fact, in my opinion, sometimes excessive time(hours) are spent on pilot training/exercise sorties. Maybe in the ANG, pilots were getting only 8 hours of training per month, but on the average, active C-model pilots have been getting upwards of 8-11 hours per week, both pre and post-9/11.



[edit on 17-1-2005 by Kyle325is]

Well that is good to know; the source can be questionable, so I won't make out like it is set in stone; sorry if that was how it sounded.

Also, one thing, I don't think the U.S. pilots had the actual use of their missiles either; they didn't use the AMRAAM (or simulated AMRAAM) and the missiles they were using had their range cut a good deal.

Of course the F-15 has a flawless record against inferior aircraft; if it had a flawless record against equal or superior aircraft, then you wouldn't take a whole lot of pride in the plane, you talk about how great the pilots are; the fact that the F-15 has a flawless record though stands as a testament to how good an aircraft it is.

Also, avionics and tactics were what mattered a good deal in this exercise, not the aircraft themselves. The Indians could have been flying the F-15s and the Americans the Su's, it doesn't matter; it was pilot tactics and avionics that amttered in this exercise. No one said the Su-aircraft outmaneuvered the F-15s, they said the Indian pilots used very good tactics.

As for the Su plane being better, I wouldn't go that far yet; it is a very good plane, but give it some time like the F-15, then say if it is truly great or not. Just because it can maneuver very well doesn't mean it is the better aircraft necessarily (though assuming it is put together with quality, it probably is).

[edit on 17-1-2005 by Broadsword20068]

i'll find out D.

I see two things at work here:

- maybe there was indeed a ploy to push the F22, but at the same time the ploy could have been too succesfull , maybe only a break-even or a slight victory was forecasted , but the indian training/ tactics was better than expected, actually highlighting that something fishy was going on.


[edit on 18-1-2005 by Countermeasures]

^^ Ahhh...a more tapered response..very possible..but that would be really sad then..USAF pilots underplaying the F-15 to boost the F-22, I'd never do that if I were an AF pilot..

Hey, remember, the press never got the full story; there was a lot more to this exercise then was let out to the media.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
^^ Ahhh...a more tapered response..very possible..but that would be really sad then..USAF pilots underplaying the F-15 to boost the F-22, I'd never do that if I were an AF pilot..

If you were an Air Force pilot, you'd do what the hell the military tells you to do or else you'd be, as the guy says to Maverick in Top Gun, "flying a cargo plane fulla rubber dog s*** outta Hong Kong..." (or worse, you'd lose your wings).

[edit on 18-1-2005 by Broadsword20068]

Anyhow, its a real sad thing for the F-15, which ever way you look at it..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Anyhow, its a real sad thing for the F-15, which ever way you look at it..

You can bet your @ss that in a war it would draw its fangs when needed...

dammit for once, can these arrogant americans realize that their aircraft isn't superior? Who gives a about your flawless F-15 records, they always fought inferior aircraft. Bring the real competition and your F-15 and F-16s will put the tail in between their legs.

The F-15's have shot down Mig-29's in actual combat. What's the Flanker ever done in real combat? NOTHING. F-16's and F-18's have both beaten Mig-29's in combat exercises, as well.

"The Su-30MKI features an all-weather, digital multi-mode, dual frequency, forward facing NIIP N-011M radar which has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 targets and engage the 8 most threatening simultaneously. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. The radar is combined with a helmet mounted sight system, which allows the pilot to turn his head in a 90º field of view, lock on to a target and launch the TVC-capable R-73RDM2 missile. The radar's forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation. The N-011M ensures a 20 metre resolution detection of large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and of small size ones - at a distance of 120 km. "

The AESA has an equal if not larger range (it's 120 nautical miles, not 100km's), and can track and illuminate more targets.

[edit on 19-1-2005 by Disturbed Deliverer]

F-16's and F-18's have both beaten Mig-29's in combat exercises, as well.

Didn’t the Viper down a few Mig-29s in Yuko?

The AESA has an equal if not larger range (it's 120 nautical miles, not 100km's), and can track and illuminate more targets.

In two threads I’ve already proved that the F-15C AESA is superior in features and range when compared to the N011M...

Yes, I can all but GUARANTEE that AESA(APG-63(v)2, by Raytheon) radar is the most advanced and capable radar package that is actually actively deployed on numerous aircraft today...It's a known(and somewhat unknown:@@ fact.

It was NOT proved that AESA raytheon radar is superior to N011M in the prev arguements, because no technical data was put forth, only quotes from Janes etc.. The AESA can track few targets more (say 5) and has a tracking range of 120n miles..which translates to 225 km..The N011M has aactive tracking range of 240 km..so more or less equal..
Also both use the same tech of split miniature radars..NO the AESA is not superior to N011M by a margin worth considering..so enough about that..

EDIT: THe AESA i supp to track 30-40 targets simultaneously while the N011M can track 20; which dunderhead thinks that this is a "major" difference worth mentioning..unlees there are over 50 planes involved in an engagement

[edit on 20-1-2005 by Daedalus3]

Remember...these are all numbers that are PUBLICLY released I'm sure there is secrecy surrounding most all new avionics systems, but I happen to KNOW there is much, MUCH secrecy surrounding the AESA outfit that is currently deployed on F-15Cs. Most of the aircraft's maintainers(including crew chiefs) are not allowed to touch, and in most cases, even get a close look at this radar package, let alone know it's actual capabilities. It's all about keeping the edge..........

^^I'm sure that policy applies to both sides, aye?...

It was NOT proved that AESA raytheon radar is superior to N011M in the prev arguements, because no technical data was put forth, only quotes from Janes etc.. The AESA can track few targets more (say 5) and has a tracking range of 120n miles..which translates to 225 km..The N011M has aactive tracking range of 240 km..so more or less equal..
Also both use the same tech of split miniature radars..NO the AESA is not superior to N011M by a margin worth considering..so enough about that..

EDIT: THe AESA i supp to track 30-40 targets simultaneously while the N011M can track 20; which dunderhead thinks that this is a "major" difference worth mentioning..unlees there are over 50 planes involved in an engagement

More then this was given. The AESA is very sensitive. It can track cruise missiles. How about the NO11M?

Tracking, and being able to fire upon more targets is a major asset, as well. In a major war between America and Russia, you're likely to see 50 or more planes at a time. This isn't India and Pakistan.

Now, I may just be some brainwashed American, but it is FACT that American AWACS were far ahead of their Russian counterparts. American radar was far more powerful. So, what makes people think that Russia's NO11M radar is more powerful then the AESA radar?

It's all about people clinging to any fantasy that sounds like it could "one-up" U.S. equipment...

I like to keep an objective eye and rely on the facts of the matter. For instance, yes, the more advanced Sukhoi aircraft are physically and maneuverably more capable than the U.S. frontline fighter, the F-15C. However, there are far more very serviceable F-15s on active duty, and their avionics systems have much more funding and remain cutting edge. Now, in all reality, there is currently a full squadron of capable F-22s operating out of Tyndall AFB in Florida now, although not scheduled for battle deployment(training squadron), I don't believe there is a fighter aircraft out today that can compete with it's capabilities, even it's publicized capabilities...

Whilst I believe there are wonderful Russian airframes, that are very capable and impressive, better than some U.S. airframes, when it comes down to avionics technology and constant funding to produce, upgrade, and maintain these systems, let alone pilot/maintainer training, no one is able to come close to the U.S. aerospace platform, even with our aging F-15Cs....Even in numbers of capable 'mediocre' airframes, this is the case