USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For F/A-22, Changes In Training

Dima - Wheres your hatred of all US tech come from?

OR do you just support everything Russian just because its not American?

Because I guess you need to like some good AF in the world, and Russia's is obviously way better then Canada's.

Daedalus3 - because of curiousity, they wanted to see how it would go down if the US was ever in that situation.

Image? honestly, did this one training simulation of India against the US really make anybody think that the IAF is the current top dog? Doubt it.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Exactly,Maybe they were fooling around with the F-15 so they could get their hands on the latest F-22s,no need to make such a big deal of it,IAF won,so what?Get over it.

No, you don't get my point...the exercise couldn't have been boost funding for F-22s because the congress would IMHO see through that ploy anyhow. And if theUSAF wasn't trying to fool congress or bosst IAF morale, then why engage in a match up in which you're sure to lose??

Thats my question...
The USAF also has an image to maintain. An image muc h more precious than that of the IAF...
Again why would the USAF enegage in such an un even matchup unless they thought they could take on the odds??

Ok....but we got to agree that this matchup was hugely political and not a fair matchup;so don't boast of it so much,3 topics is more than enough.

You just don't get it do you?

The reason the USAF accepted the terms was 2 fold.

1) letting India win makes them look good. They are becoming a strong ally of ours, and this helps relations. If they do well against the mighty US, they are more likely to be given more money with which to purchase more air craft and have better training. That means the US gets a more powerfull ally.

2) If the US loses, the USAF can say - look, our F-15s lost to India! We NEED more Raptors.

This is a win win win situation for the US.

Now, if we had just smashed India, what would happen?

1) India is humiliated, they likely get no more money to buy aircraft, and may even have their budget reduced because the results are not that good. Indias military becomes weakminded, and thus they are less likely to take action because they were beaten so handidly.

2) US congress sees the results and decides that the USAF DOESN'T need so many Raptors after all, cuts budgets even further, and the USAF can only affoard around 100 of them.

That is a lose lose lose situation for both the US and India!

Use your head man!

Originally posted by American Mad Man
You just don't get it do you?

The reason the USAF accepted the terms was 2 fold.

1) letting India win makes them look good. They are becoming a strong ally of ours, and this helps relations. If they do well against the mighty US, they are more likely to be given more money with which to purchase more air craft and have better training. That means the US gets a more powerfull ally.

2) If the US loses, the USAF can say - look, our F-15s lost to India! We NEED more Raptors.

This is a win win win situation for the US.

Now, if we had just smashed India, what would happen?

1) India is humiliated, they likely get no more money to buy aircraft, and may even have their budget reduced because the results are not that good. Indias military becomes weakminded, and thus they are less likely to take action because they were beaten so handidly.

2) US congress sees the results and decides that the USAF DOESN'T need so many Raptors after all, cuts budgets even further, and the USAF can only affoard around 100 of them.

That is a lose lose lose situation for both the US and India!

Use your head man!

Yes,this is exactly what i meant by political,USAF is definetely the world's best airforce now,so how could India,who fly a lot of MiG-21s (sure,China too)beat them?

So now its decided that the US congress is stupid, and thye've been coerced into funding for more raptors.
Also we've concluded that we could see through the Cope India exercise while the US congress was unable to do so.

Also the USAF's image is not tattered because everybody knows that they lost just for the IAF's sake. I mean it an unwritten rule. If the USAF loses to some one then it must be with their consent, I mean who's ever heard of the USAF losing to someone fair and square!!
Also its common knowledge that the IAF need morale boosting because they suck sooo bad that the only way they can smile is by some one allowing them to beat them!!

Its sooo simple.God I should have figured it out in the very beginning!!
Also with the same logic I get why the US "liberated" Iraq and why Bush was re-elected!!
I apologise for my ignorance!!


Long live America!!
IF this is the future of the US then I dont know who's more ignorant/insulated the americans or the chicoms!!

Now there,who would agree to an exercise in the right mind when your enemy has three times your aircraft,AWACS,Advanced radar systems,while you have those,but are not allowed to use any one of them in the exercise?

Answer-Nobody.There must be something political about this exercise,you Ignorant Indian Use your brain to think,How come a F-15 fighter which has never been shot down to date get shot down so easily in an exercise?In a real life scenario,the F-15s will use their AMRAAMs with the fire and forget option,with their latest radar which can spot aircraft up to 100km away;there isn't much hope for your "great" IAF pilot.

Becasue the F-15 "superior" reord has been against arab, Libyan and Iraqi MiGs for chrissakes!!Tell me one enemy that the F-15 has shot down whcih is from a decent AF!!
Its not that they've shot down russian or even chinese aircraft. The record is flawed.Well the fire and forget technique you talk about is applicable to both sides, and Russian BVRs go beyond 100km. Even the ancient anti-ship Exocit missile that the russians had 20 years ago has a range of 100km +!!

Same with the Israelis. They got a good AF because theyve flown against whom?
Syria, Egypt and Lebanon!!
Actually I can confirm that PAF pilots which flew for the Egyptian AF in the 73 war SHOT DOWN IAF(israeli) jets!! The PAF is a competent AF.

same witht the F-16 "unbeaten record"
Infact the only shooting down of an F-16 was publicised to be an own goal by the PAF. Nobody wanted to admit that a cheap afghan jet could shoot he "unbeatable" F-16!!

And still both teams had BVR missile and radar capability then again it would come down to skill and fighter training!!
Im still suppose to believe that even then the F-15 would "somehow" have the upper hand...
Why...oh wait I forgot!! They're the best AF in the world!!





[edit on 20-11-2004 by Daedalus3]

The only real performance benchmarks the USAF / USN use for overall air combat readiness are the Green Flag and Red Flag exercises. These exercises allow balls to the wall flying (when I attended Red Flag we could not drive our trucks during the day because a fighter jet might hit us!!!), full jamming and evasion with no floor or ceilings. It�s a fur ball with bombers, fighters, and Air Defense units all mixing it up. It�s VERY cool to see 40-50 fighters mix it up at one time while B-52�s and B-1�s come streaking 100� overhead on LIVE ordnance bombing runs.

Of course as an ADA man I learned fighter jocks REALLY hate us�they loved to fly in formation above our sites and break the sound barrier together�very nasty.

Makes top-gun exercises look like kindergarten playtime.

Once I see the IAF doing well in one of those two major exercises I�ll know they are for real, otherwise it was just a dog and pony show. Sorry IAF fans, but talk to any fighter pilot and they�ll tell you the same.

Tell that to us after a real exercise,please;this exercise was "staged" to let the IAF win,and for the USAF to lose,probably to increase good relations.Do you get what i mean,or must you get your morale up first?

[edit on 20/11/04 by W4rl0rD]

^^^^And so you've become an expert in foreign relations, hidden agendas and other such topics. You don't get it. Where did anybody go public about this in terms of boosting relations?
Im sorry you're the one who's ignorant.
First it was the excuse to "dupe" the congress.When I sent that one to the dogs, now its all about boosting relations and morale. Not one shred of proof on this though.
Also yes I know about red/green flag exercises and I would also have been much more at ease if the exercise under discussion was of that nature, but it wasn't. There are obviously reasons for that. But im sorry,
to give the excuse that "the exercise was staged to boost morale/relations" defeats the very purpose of that exercise and im sure if one were to confer with pilots of either AF on this they'd say the same."

And W4rlord...how come you don't counter my point on the "flawed nature" of the F-15's perfect record?
Or shall we bury that clause under the carpet as well, along with the claim that the "US congress is dumber than you 'experts' over here"...??

Bring it on....I can refute every single claim of yours until you sweep it under the carpet!!

Originally posted by Murcielago
Daedalus3 - because of curiousity, they wanted to see how it would go down if the US was ever in that situation.

Image? honestly, did this one training simulation of India against the US really make anybody think that the IAF is the current top dog? Doubt it.

EXACTLY!!! Thats my point!!
The exercise wasn't conducted to boost morale/relations...

Nor was it conducted to fool the congress into funding for more planes!!

It was conducted in that particular fashion to see if the USAF could ever defeat such odds if they were ever in such a situation. And obviously they agreed to the odds becasue they thought that they could maybe ,just maybe take them on. But it didn't work out that way. The USAF miscalcualted their opponents skills/tech and so they lost. No big deal!!Now they go back and rework their stuff to get it right if it really happens thatway!!SIMPLE!!
No boosting of relations/morale, no fooling of congress NOTHING..it was a simple straightforward AF EXERCISE!! Deal with it!!:p

It doesn't mean that the IAF is the 'top dawg" around and neither does it mean that the USAF is sucky...JEEZ !!!

Now why didn't any of you 'experts' figure that??!

THANK YOU Murcielago..You should have posted this looong ago!!
At least you had the sense to see the exercise for its REAL purpose.
.It was never a prestige issue for either AF, just an exercise.

Now please explain your point to all these other dunderheads who weave up fairytales to blur the very purpose of this exercise...political agendas, boosting AF morale...what a load of rubbish!!

[edit on 20-11-2004 by Daedalus3]

Ok,i figured that out,get your friend stealth spy to stop boasting about it.

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Ok,i figured that out,get your friend stealth spy to stop boasting about it.

He's not my friend

wow Deadelus, u took them all on, congrats, so where are u from?

jus curious, k, the main convo is over, but i'd jus like to say that america was beaten 9 to1, noe comon, even if u had u're frontline radars, even if u're missiles had the full range, even if everything were normal, u lost to 2 year premature Su-30MKI's

i don't think most people know about this, i've already stated this on another topic, but the Su-30MKI's that india operates are't really MKI's, because russia was supposed to start shippping them to india in 1996, and would end in 2000. the russians would ship them in batches, and as one batch was shipped, the next batch would be even more technologically advanced than the previous one, until the last batch had all the best features that India wanted for their Su-30MKI's, well, russia was 6 years late in starting, and they only started to ship them in 2002, so russia still has another 2 years worth of upgrading them until they will be fully a Su-30MKI

oh and american mad man, india isn't a close ally of america, their much more closer to russia than they are to you, u said u had knowledge in geopolitical issues

Im from India of course!!
And as of now India is walking the tight rope between the US and Russia, though still leaning considerabley more towards Russia....

u guys aren't that bad pilots, thank for helping us out with the BrahMos missile though, hope u guys agree to help us out wit out Pak-Fa

WE're helping you out with the Su-47 Berkut though. I dont know about the Pak-Fa.
Btw where are you from. Your location says Canada...so im confused..

[edit on 22-11-2004 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
So now its decided that the US congress is stupid, and thye've been coerced into funding for more raptors.
Also we've concluded that we could see through the Cope India exercise while the US congress was unable to do so.

You seem to forget that the terms of the deal WERE NOT released during the exercise - they were released after the fact.

Also the USAF's image is not tattered because everybody knows that they lost just for the IAF's sake. I mean it an unwritten rule. If the USAF loses to some one then it must be with their consent, I mean who's ever heard of the USAF losing to someone fair and square!!

Lose to someone yes. Lose to India no. I wouldn't be suprised if a nation such as Isreal beat us in an exercise, because they use the same aircraft we do, their pilots are VERY well trained.

And as long as we are talking about 'fair and square' you keep leaving out the part that India had THREE TIMES AS MANY PLANES as the US did. Doesn't seem so fair to me - even if everything else was even, which we all no it wasn't.

Also its common knowledge that the IAF need morale boosting because they suck sooo bad that the only way they can smile is by some one allowing them to beat them!!

That is a plus - the more important thing for India is to present to their government evidence that all those brand new multi million dollar aircraft they are buying are paying off. That way they are more likely to be given money to purchase aircraft in the future.

Its sooo simple.God I should have figured it out in the very beginning!!
Also with the same logic I get why the US "liberated" Iraq and why Bush was re-elected!!
I apologise for my ignorance!!

It's OK - I forgive you.

Long live America!!

Yes, LONG LIVE AMERICA - land of the free, home of the brave!