Groom Lake, been there...

Really good story my friend.
I only wish to have some of these experiences in life, If only doing what i love to do wouldn't cost so much money

Originally posted by MajesticTwelve

edit on 2012/1/13 by MajesticTwelve because: (no reason given)

Now that, is funny!

reply to post by charlyv


Its a shame you couldnt fire up the MAD boom, bet you would have got some amazing readings

Great read!

Thanks for the post, but also thanks for your service!

You P3's used to give us headaches!

I know the KNUQ base historian. Can you provide the tail number of the P-3? Incidentally, a P-3 in that era would be considered a nice ride. The aircraft wasn't all that old. Kind of loud though. The former P-3 crewmen I've met don't hear so well.

Regarding diversion to Groom from a route that spans New Orleans to KNUQ, I would say it would have to be very unconventional. There are no flights over the Nellis range, especially the southern portion since T-bird Lake is overflown day and night by fighter aircraft. [Incursions over the northern part of the range are common, but from New Orleans, that wouldn't be a likely route.] Most flights head along a route that skirts the west side of the Nellis range. If there was an IFE, diversions would be to KDRA or KINS. I doubt Beatty has a crash crew. If further north, the most likely diversion would be the KTNX (Tonopah Test Range). In that era, plenty of secret stuff was happening there. For instance, the place was full of MIGs. KTNX would have used Nellis control for vectoring.

The TTR mancamp and base are well separated. You would need base transportation to go between them. They fly workers to the TTR from Vegas. However no dancing girls at the TTR.

what a gem of a story, ATS brings them now and again. Thank you for sharing it.

reply to post by TreehouseIndustries


I met someone who used to calibrate the MAD. He said he could detect the movement of car doors from the base parking lot. Not just the presence of metal, but moving metal. [Second hand information is always subject to the reality distortion field.]

reply to post by gariac


Good points.....KNUQ is Moffet Field.

The P-3 would cruise at, say something below 28,000 feet.. Nominal range would vary based on payload, and fuel onboard.....but "full" fuel and "maximum" range is about 4,800 NM......well within the capabilities from the NAS at New Orleans to Moffet. Since they were positioning for the training exercise, would have one payload to speak of.


Shall we 'Flight Plan' from the NAS MCO to KNUQ?


Here is a Link to modern High Enroute Charts, from KNBG to KNUQ

We can review the "straight line" (in magenta or "pink") as depicted, and infer the actual Flight Plan route from that.....???


Look HERE.

Again, I did not define a routing, since I do not know their original routing, but you can clearly see the proximity of a "direct" routing.....so their actual ATC route would have been close, and the point of the flight where the engine fire occurred??

In that sort of emergency, you get to the NEAREST suitable airport, in "point of time" (as the regulations state). Air Traffic Control (Los Angeles Center??) likely contacted the military ATC liaison, since it was a military flight....to provide assistance to the "nearest suitable".....in order to save the airplane, and to save lives......

What a wonderful story, thank you so much for sharing

reply to post by ProudBird


I'm not sure you could fly direct in those days. The routing goes from VOR to VOR, hence the route on the west side of Nellis. It is set up such that there is both reasonable navaids and radar coverage. Not great radar coverage mind you, even today.

But if they did fly direct, Groom Lake would not have been the proper place to divert. Your route crosses KINS and KDRA. Those airports are far simpler to reach. Landing at Groom is not trivial.

ATC instructions would require giving the plane an unpublished VOR, approach, and probably tower frequency over a clear radio channel. Now in the day, military aircraft didn't have VHF, so military planes were easy for hobbyists to track.

The description still sounds more like the TTR. Flying direct to the TTR would take some vectoring. The Janets fly a conventional civil route, then fly over TPH, then into the TTR. For an IFE, a short cut would be tricky. The KTNX VOR, based on it's location, is probably not heard from the air along route 95. (Perhaps another reason the Janets take an odd route.] Now there are flights than do a visual to a 32 landing at the TTR, but it would require a little bit of flying blind.

For an IFE, I wouldn't want to divert to Groom with far better alternatives. Even Janet 652 during it's IFE turned around and landed at KLAS rather than deal with Groom, and it was authorized to land there!

Just as a FYI, air nav around the west is a bit different than say on the east coast. The big exception is the VOR locations. There just aren't that many airports in the intermountain area. But VOR has a limited range. Basically line of sight, but often way less than the theoretical limit. So there are VORs without airports. Or often the airport does exist, but the VOR is elsewhere. These things need room to breathe. So Coaldale is a VOR without an airport. The same goes for Wilson Creek. The sparse nav ads and high mountains generally rule out direct flight.

reply to post by gariac

I'm not sure you could fly direct in those days. The routing goes from VOR to VOR, hence the route on the west side of Nellis. It is set up such that there is both reasonable navaids and radar coverage. Not great radar coverage mind you, even today.

I know all of that....my POINT is, look at the Jet Airways, and just plan the route YOU would fly, from the origin to destination.....along the J-Routes.

They STILL come near the "Area 51" region, which is where the engine fire occurred!!

Los Angeles Center would be the controlling ATC authority, there.....and that sector of the LA ARTCC would know who to contact, on Land Lines, for a military flight that was in duress.....just as they would help any civilian airplane that needed assistance.....just responding to different people and phone lines, depending on the situation....

I mean, come on...we both know this!

Oh and....as to "radar" coverage? I missed that at first glance....ARTCC for Los Angeles has good coverage there....at high altitudes (above at least 18,000 feet). Any "gaps" below that....??? Well, in the mountainous regions, then we may wish to defer to the "Black Ops" area.....OK?? (For the "local" regions that are off limits to civilian aviation anyways.....)




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Originally posted by gariac
reply to post by ProudBird

 

I'm not sure you could fly direct in those days. The routing goes from VOR to VOR, hence the route on the west side of Nellis. It is set up such that there is both reasonable navaids and radar coverage. Not great radar coverage mind you, even today.

But if they did fly direct, Groom Lake would not have been the proper place to divert. Your route crosses KINS and KDRA. Those airports are far simpler to reach. Landing at Groom is not trivial.

ATC instructions would require giving the plane an unpublished VOR, approach, and probably tower frequency over a clear radio channel. Now in the day, military aircraft didn't have VHF, so military planes were easy for hobbyists to track.

The description still sounds more like the TTR. Flying direct to the TTR would take some vectoring. The Janets fly a conventional civil route, then fly over TPH, then into the TTR. For an IFE, a short cut would be tricky. The KTNX VOR, based on it's location, is probably not heard from the air along route 95. (Perhaps another reason the Janets take an odd route.] Now there are flights than do a visual to a 32 landing at the TTR, but it would require a little bit of flying blind.

For an IFE, I wouldn't want to divert to Groom with far better alternatives. Even Janet 652 during it's IFE turned around and landed at KLAS rather than deal with Groom, and it was authorized to land there!

Yea, I heard that from some in the squadron as well. I have no idea why they vectored us there, it must have been because they had the immediate capability of dispatching those foam trucks, who knows. What I do know is that baby was ready to blow the wing, and we were all glad that it worked out the way it did.

reply to post by ProudBird


But the jetway would be nearer KINS and KDRA, not Groom. If the flight was further north, then the TTR, but the story goes this probably happened as they entered Nevada.

In any event, once I get the tail number, this will be easy pickens for the Moffett historian to verify. Also, the repairs would be documented. The good thing about this story is it is trivial to verify given the tail number. Without the tail number, then it is just another story.

Great Story, thank you for sharing.

What is your opinion of Gariac's suggestion that you and your crew had an unscheduled overnight at Tonopah rather than Groom Lake?

While not as common a buzzword as Area 51, Tonopah would be nearly as sexy of a chance destination...

Wasn't there an incident some years ago where a civie bug smasher had an IFE and made an unauthorized landing at Groom? I seem to recall that the story ended up with the pilot being debriefed, refueled and sent on his way with explicit instructions from security to never come back?

reply to post by gariac

In any event, once I get the tail number, this will be easy pickens for the Moffett historian to verify. Also, the repairs would be documented. The good thing about this story is it is trivial to verify given the tail number. Without the tail number, then it is just another story.

Agreed.

Will await what you learn.....I just contributed a bit of what I know, based on "current" Aeronautical Charts, to suggest that the OP's story seems to have a lot of truth in it.

reply to post by Drunkenparrot

Wasn't there an incident some years ago where a civie bug smasher had an IFE and made an unauthorized landing at Groom?

I have heard of that story....although may be an Urban Legend, the way I heard, it was a sailplane pilot.....will try to find it on Google.....

reply to post by Soapusmaximus


Thanks for that video. You've got me wondering now... what it was that I stumbled across at Papoose Mtn a couple years ago on Google. I've never been able to find it again, either. I've always believed (at least until now) that it was a mountain entrance at S4.

reply to post by Drunkenparrot


I could see the "bug smasher" being more likely to land at Groom if on the east side. The pilot probably doesn't have an instrument rating, so no need for the VORs you find on the west side.

The small single engine planes are the few planes that fly along the east side of the range, and Groom Lake is easily seen from that side. On the east side of the range, you have few good places to land. Lots of dirt strips and such, but I'd sure like a crash crew if I had to land hard, so going to Groom would be my choice, security be damned. The terrain from the east side isn't all that rugged. Just shoot down the Tikaboo valley.