a rant : firearms are not the magical key to survival

I like Survival and all, especially procuring on site and going on from there, but this entire forum revolves around firearm for survival as a main tool....not meaning any disrespect for those who likes them, but i know nothing about guns and there are barely any thread i would fit-in in the Survival Forum.

Originally posted by luciddream
I like Survival and all, especially procuring on site and going on from there, but this entire forum revolves around firearm for survival as a main tool....not meaning any disrespect for those who likes them, but i know nothing about guns and there are barely any thread i would fit-in in the Survival Forum.

There is a good reason for that! The Native Americans didn't have firearms. They had knowledge of the land, they had great horsemanship skills, they knew how to survive, but they didn't have rifles and ammunition like the settlers, and they lost their land and were driven almost to extinction.

Ever since the Chinese invented gunpowder, firearms have ruled supreme over all other forms of combat. You don't see Samurai or Ninjas or Trojan soldiers winning in modern warfare, you see hi-tech firearms.

If you have one, then it becomes just another tool and you'll likely need many other skills to survive, but if you don't have one, then all your other skills will be pretty useless against a marauding horde that has firearms.

reply to post by luciddream


The reason people are so centered around guns here (and everywhere else for that matter) is because they fear the worst. Absolute chaos. Not simply foraging for food, but fighting for their lives at the gun point of looters. It's really an extention of their own greedy nature. Survival can mean anything, including that. Most people consider that scenario, the worst case scenario, to be the most likely outcome. They're not really thinking about the mythical never ending camping trip where you live off the land.

Thanks for making my point Getreadyalready. Not that I think you're greedy or anything, but you know what I'm talking about.

reply to post by Evolutionsend


Yep.

In the movie "Contagion" he is sitting there in his home, unarmed, while his neighbors across the street are murdered and robbed, and he is entirely helpless. Luckily the bandits just move on down the road, but imagine that helpless feeling!! I'd rather never have to experience something like that, I'd much rather have a firearm or two on hand just in case.

Lol, when the shtf I hope that you have a change of heart with your hypothesis. Whats the old cleshay state, never bring a knife to a gun fight?"

Your synopsis only works if and when you do not have 6-8 billion hungry people wanting the same resources as you and your family do

If your daring go down town and find some thugs gang bangers and ask them what they will do when the SHTF! you will not like the answer if you do not shot or raped in the mean time, I know some, and they say "IT WILL BE PARTY TIME, RAPE AT WILL, KILL AT WILL, LOOT AT WILL" not yelling but larger to see it, what they plan on doing, they know me i know them and yes it will be when it comes time me Vrs them, will i go hunting them , only if they go after hands off folks i know, can not protect every one, but they know what i mean, if the law does not get them first, no crime hanging around, usually leave when law shows up, parks or on the street, so if you see a group saying here comes some fun run or make a stand death wish is in there blood no stopping till they are 6 feet under how big 20 to 60 strong and this is just one group, ms 13, west side, east side, the bloods, the crips, among others all want to have what they fun day, no law will stop them, for every one arrested 10 more to take the place. 13 to 30 is their age.

I generally apply the idea that short of firing a gun as a means of hunting and food...

If you have to fire a weapon, you have already lost. The idea of being a survivalist is just that...survive. If and when it gets down to shooting as a means of offense or defense...you have pretty much played all of your cards.

Mobility, stealth, using the enviroment for food and cover are the survivalist best tools.

Read "Mao Se Tung on Guerilla Warfare"... the book that has inspired a few generations of rebels and insurgents and the VC...Charlie...Ghosts...

Too many folks want to play Rambo

reply to post by AlreadyGone


If you want to assign blame, guess who was the first to use Guerilla warfare to win a war. That would be the us, in the revolutionary war. It was called that for more than one reason. We came out with a revolutionary "honorless" way of fighting, which evolved into modern combat. While the british were marching around in circles in formation, we were behind the trees shooting into their formations. That's why they refused to fight us any longer. We weren't worth the trouble! Which leads me to another point.

Making yourself "not worth the trouble" is a good defense.

reply to post by Evolutionsend


I think you misunderstood my point. I was not placing blame anywhere. I agree with you and am well aware of the tactics of the Revolution, the Indian Wars, the Bushwackers of Kansas/ Missourri and so on..

My point is that too many people think that with a big enough gun and knife that they are a bad ass and can survive most anything...

Not so...generally, a shooting conflict is a choice of last resort for a survivalist. Again...skills, tactics, knowledge, and mobility are the survivalist's best friend.

reply to post by Evolutionsend

Making yourself "not worth the trouble" is a good defense.

And being armed is surely a necessary component to becoming too much trouble. Why would a maruading horde of criminals risk life and limb against a worthy adversary when it would be much easier to go pick on the ill-prepared and unarmed folks?

Although, I agree that actually having to discharge a firearm indicates you have run out of other options, that does not mean it is a bad thing, perhaps they have fallen into each and every one of your traps, and you now have them exactly where you want them, and you fire a shot to assert your total domination and the battle is over, or perhaps you have eliminated 99% of the threat, but one stinking zombie snuck through and you fire one shotgun slug to destroy the last threat, or perhaps you are just entirely outmanned, outgunned, and surrounded, and you have decided to go down in a blaze of glory........ all perfectly acceptable reasons to fire your weapon, and still much better to have a firearm than not to have a firearm.

There are a few legitimate stories on the web from people who survived SHTF scenarios (i.e., societal meltdown) first hand. In all cases firearms were considered essential. Agreed, they are not the end-all-be-all but not having a way of protecting you and yours --- and with a certain degree of stand-off capability --- isn't going to fly.

Alas... I agree. Which is why our household has more weapons than windows.

That being said... Anybody can use a chainsaw..not everybody uses a chainsaw effectively. Likewise, anybody can shoot a rifle or pistol...doing so effectively requires a bit of practice, some critical thought, and safety.

Again... too many people grew up on Rambo and Red Dawn and think they likewise can take on the whole NWO army single handedly... not so.

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
Again... too many people grew up on Rambo and Red Dawn and think they likewise can take on the whole NWO army single handedly... not so.

Those Red Dawn kids had grown up on firearms, hunting, and rural lifestyle. They knew the mountains inside and out, and they were used to camping, hunting, four-wheel driving, etc.

I think you are right about a lot of folks just thinking they know how to survive, but I also think there are plenty of folks like the kids in Red Dawn that have been preparing their whole lives to survive. They don't prepare on purpose, it is just part of rural life. Birthing calves, tossing hay, cooling off in a creek, shooting squirrels and rabbits and coyotes, working through pain, sleeping on the hard ground, noodling for catfish, and knowing the best little private spots in the woods to take a girl and "get lost" or conveniently run out of gas.

Country folks can survive....

True Survivors will certainly do their best to survive and most have taken appropriate means leading up to X day.. I'm not concerned with them. It's those who are so reliant on others and the govt. for their everyday needs that should raise the hair on the back of your neck... What happens when the govt. checks stop coming, the food stamps dry up along with the supply chain to the corner store. They panic and move into an entirely different type of survival mode. Desperation. They seek to find those who have what they need.

Hence the importance of keeping certain force multiplier tools at the ready to defend ones family, home and personal resources.

reply to post by getreadyalready


It's starting to sound a lot like a Hank Williams Junior song in here.

For the record, I've never birthed a calf.

I watched a National Film Board of Canada short on the CBC when I was younger...a lot younger
it was about a Metis man
He had a hatchet, his shirt, pants, and moccassins...and that was all.

In one weekend in the bush ( Fri afternoon to Sun evening ) with nothing but the clothes on his back and the hatchet he created a whole life.
Shelter Food Utensiles, even clothing on the way...He had a bow and arrows, fish caught, traps producing, skins drying, food preserving, herbs drying, cooking and eating utensiles...

He was a made man
No gun

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

It's starting to sound a lot like a Hank Williams Junior song in here.

For the record, I've never birthed a calf.

LOL! Me neither, but I have seen it done, and I didn't want any part of it! The closest I've come is having to "express" my dog's anal glands. That is something nobody should ever have to do and no dog should ever need done! Horrendous!

traps work very well...and they don't tell everyone for several miles in every direction you are inviting them to lunch
and they can be made out of stuff thats lying around

bows work nicely to if you know how to actually hunt

hell even an atl atl will do a grand job if you know what they are all about...( the spear has to FLEX!)

personally I have found my old g, b and e strings make awsome snares..over and over and over again
even for fish if you had too
ever try to shoot fish?

reply to post by getreadyalready

If you have one, then it becomes just another tool and you'll likely need many other skills to survive, but if you don't have one, then all your other skills will be pretty useless against a marauding horde that has firearms.

That's pretty much the crux of what I was going to say, right there...the reason firearms are so often mentioned as a survival tool, is that it gives you the means to KEEP your supplies.

OP, would you accept the word of a famous leader of a country?

Mao Zedong (Tsz-tung) said: " (Political power comes from the end of a gun barrel."

Isn't that the way wars are won or the way the West was "won?"

Your argument has been here on ATS before. If is a false argument.

The answer remains the same as before. Understand that your argument must assume that every other aspect must be equal among the one with the gun and the one without the weapon. The answer is clear.