9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

Originally posted by darkblueskyNo, I am not. Is your reading compehension really that poor?

No, just responding to this line you wrote. "I won't even ask about FBI reports since the FBI only investigates crimes."

Yes, I do. My earlier statement conveyed the idea that you won't find FBI reports for MOST aviation inciidents beacuse most are not considered crimes.

But the 9/11 crash sites were crime scenes and so was Flight 800. In fact Flight 800 was a crime scene twice. The explosion in mid-air was originally thought to be a bomb. Then later witnesses came forward stating they saw a missile. So Flight 800 was a crime scene, that another reason they did a reconstruction. [edit on 14-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by darkblueskyNo, I am not. Is your reading compehension really that poor?

No, just responding to this line you wrote. "I won't even ask about FBI reports since the FBI only investigates crimes."

That question was clearly posed in the context of non-crime scene avaiation incident investigation, that's why I wouldn't even ask about FBI reports.

Yes, I do. My earlier statement conveyed the idea that you won't find FBI reports for MOST aviation inciidents beacuse most are not considered crimes.

But the 9/11 crash sites were crime scenes and so was Flight 800. In fact Flight 800 was a crime scene twice. The explosion in mid-air was originally thought to be a bomb. Then later witnesses came forward stating they saw a missile. So Flight 800 was a crime scene, that another reason they did a reconstruction.

The FBI conluded there was no crime commited w/ regard to TWA 800. The FAA did not provide the kind of evidence you want to see for AA Flt 77. The FBI does not release crime scene investigation reports, the FAA does not produce reports with the goal of proving the crashed aircraft is the one it's assumed to be. What you're asking for just isn't done, You need to accept this fact.

Originally posted by darkbluesky The FBI conluded there was no crime commited w/ regard to TWA 800. The FAA did not provide the kind of evidence you want to see for AA Flt 77.

Well you might want to do some more research into flight 800. Thats right no evidence to support the offial story that flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

The FBI does not release crime scene investigation reports, the FAA does not produce reports with the goal of proving the crashed aircraft is the one it's assumed to be.

Well the fact is the FBI only spent 5 days at the Pentagon crime scene AFTER stating it would take 30 days. (and yes i have a source if you need to see it) And yes you can get crime scene information through FOIA requests. But we need to know why the FAA refuses to release serial numbers to the 9/11 planes through FOIA requests. [edit on 15-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1Well the fact is the FBI only spent 5 days at the Pentagon crime scene AFTER stating it would take 30 days. (and yes i have a source if you need to see it).

Yes I need to see it. However I have no idea what this has to do with proving or disproving the FBI releases crime scene investigation reports.

And yes you can get crime scene information through FOIA requests.

I challenge you to find one FAA or NTSB incident report that provides properly credited photos of airplane parts with SNs that prove the parts belong to the aircraft presumed to have been involved in the incident. No you will tell me it's up to me to prove my position but obviously I cant because I could provide 1000 NTSB reports that include no positive aircraft identification evidence (because they dont bother with this) but you'd still say that doesnt prove anything, Therefore its up to you to proove with just ONE EXAMPLE of an NTSB report that the things you seek from 9/11 are ever done: 1) video of the airplane crashing 2) video must be independently verifiable a authentic 3) pictures of airplane parts with SNs 4) prooved sources of pictures 5) aircraft records matching SNs to pictures You could have all these things from the Pentagon and you still won't accept them because they could have very easily been fraudulently fabricated. That point aside, show us ONE EXAMPLE of and NTSB or FBI aviation incident investigation that provides these things and I'll post no more in this thread.

But we need to know why the FAA refuses to release serial numbers to the 9/11 planes through FOIA requests. [edit on 15-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

As I and other have repeated adnauseum...There is no need for them to do so. Most people believe that AA 77 crashed at the Pentagon. If the public demand became large enough, they would produce the evidence, which folks like you would instantly dismiss as FAKE! [edit on 5/15/2008 by darkbluesky] fixed quotes [edit on 5/15/2008 by darkbluesky]

Isn't location of the 'black box' recorders in the wreckage reasonable proof of what plane crashed? If it isn't then we'll have to re-open the investigation on virtually every serious crash that ever happened since the introduction of recorders. As for reconstruction, isn't that only done when there's doubt about why the plane crashed like a bomb, missile or mechanical failure? It's done in the interests of finding problem areas in need of correction to prevent further disasters and that doesn't apply to 911 planes as they were perfectly airworthy right up to the instant of being deliberately crashed so there's nothing to be gained from micro-analysis of every piece found.

Originally posted by Pilgrum Isn't location of the 'black box' recorders in the wreckage reasonable proof of what plane crashed?

Yes

As for reconstruction, isn't that only done when there's doubt about why the plane crashed like a bomb, missile or mechanical failure? It's done in the interests of finding problem areas in need of correction to prevent further disasters and that doesn't apply to 911 planes as they were perfectly airworthy right up to the instant of being deliberately crashed so there's nothing to be gained from micro-analysis of every piece found.

Also correct. This has been pointed out, and was already rejected by Utilma on grounds I don't pretend to understand...

reply to post by ULTIMA1

Well the fact is the FBI only spent 5 days at the Pentagon crime scene AFTER stating it would take 30 days. (and yes i have a source if you need to see it)

I would like to see that also. Can you post a link?

Originally posted by darkbluesky Yes I need to see it. However I have no idea what this has to do with proving or disproving the FBI releases crime scene investigation reports.

www.defenselink.mil...

WASHINGTON, Sept. 24, 2001 -- The FBI assumed crime-scene jurisdiction at the Pentagon terrorist attack site Sept. 21 from the Arlington County (Va.) Fire Department, officials said. FBI officials estimate the crime scene investigation would last about a month, Arlington Fire Chief Edward P. Plaugher said. He said he expects "additional remains will be discovered during the course of the FBI investigation" and mortuary specialists will remain on site to process them.

WASHINGTON, Sept. 26, 2001 -- The FBI handed over Pentagon crash site management to the Army Military District of Washington at 7 a.m. today. The transfer of responsibility marks the end of the FBI's crime scene investigation following the Sept. 11 terrorist attack against the Pentagon. MDW will oversee ongoing security operations around the damaged area of the building. FBI investigators will move their operations to the Pentagon's north parking lot and continue to sift through debris for more evidence.

Well the FBI stated that the 9/11 crash siites were the largest crime scenes in FBI history, so why did they only spend 5 days on the Pentagon crime scene?

I challenge you to find one FAA or NTSB incident report that provides properly credited photos of airplane parts with SNs that prove the parts belong to the aircraft presumed to have been involved in the incident.

Please do research on Flight 800 you may see the information you are looking for.

Most people believe that AA 77 crashed at the Pentagon.

Well i hate to tell you believing in something is not the same as proving it actually happened. I am still waiting for someone to post actaul evidence that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. [edit on 15-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by Boone 870 I would like to see that also. Can you post a link?

www.defenselink.mil...

WASHINGTON, Sept. 24, 2001 -- The FBI assumed crime-scene jurisdiction at the Pentagon terrorist attack site Sept. 21 from the Arlington County (Va.) Fire Department, officials said. FBI officials estimate the crime scene investigation would last about a month, Arlington Fire Chief Edward P. Plaugher said. He said he expects "additional remains will be discovered during the course of the FBI investigation" and mortuary specialists will remain on site to process them.

WASHINGTON, Sept. 26, 2001 -- The FBI handed over Pentagon crash site management to the Army Military District of Washington at 7 a.m. today. The transfer of responsibility marks the end of the FBI's crime scene investigation following the Sept. 11 terrorist attack against the Pentagon. MDW will oversee ongoing security operations around the damaged area of the building. FBI investigators will move their operations to the Pentagon's north parking lot and continue to sift through debris for more evidence.

Here. See if you can recognize the source. www.defenselink.mil...

MDW will oversee ongoing security operations around the damaged area of the building. FBI investigators will move their operations to the Pentagon's north parking lot and continue to sift through debris for more evidence. "We've been overwhelmed by the support provided by the service members, firefighters, police and relief organizations that have worked with us over the last two weeks," said Van A. Harp, assistant director in charge of the FBI Washington Field Office. About 10,000 tons of debris have been removed to date

It sounds to me like although the jurisdiction was shuffled between the Arlington County FD, the FBI, and the Army Military District of Washington that the FBI was investigating for atleast two weeks and planned on continuing. And that the Army Military District of Washington was responsible for overseeing security at that point. They were extremely busy in those five days -- OR the investigation had been going on before the FBI was granted jurisdiction and continued after it transfered responsibility of the crime scene. [edit on 15-5-2008 by _Del_]

Originally posted by _Del_ It sounds to me like although the jurisdiction was shuffled between the Arlington County FD, the FBI, and the Army Military District of Washington that the FBI was investigating for atleast two weeks and planned on continuing.

But if you read my post you would see that the source i posted supports my statement that the FBI officially took over the crime scene on Sept. 21 and turned it over on Sept. 26 (if you do the math thats 5 days) 5 days, after stating it would take 30 days. 5 days on a crime scene that the FBI called the biggest crime scenes in their history? Does that seem right to you ?

reply to post by ULTIMA1 Yes, the FBI said they expected the investigation at the Pentagon would last a month. Never once did they say they would retain sole jurisdiction over the crash site for a month. They spent their 5-6 days measuring, and taking photos, and then they turned the site of the MDW to gather the debris and move it to the north parking lot where the FBI set up their evidence gathering point.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999 Yes, the FBI said they expected the investigation at the Pentagon would last a month.

Everyone likes to ignore this line in the FBI's statement.

The transfer of responsibility marks the end of the FBI's crime scene investigation following the Sept. 11 terrorist attack against the Pentagon.

So as stated the FBI only worked the crime scene for 5 days. [edit on 15-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

reply to post by ULTIMA1 Why do I get the feeling that either you did not read the whole post or just did not understand it. The FBI was on scene for a lot longer than 5 days.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999 reply to post by ULTIMA1

 

Why do I get the feeling that either you did not read the whole post or just did not understand it. The FBI was on scene for a lot longer than 5 days.

Or he's deliberately trolling. Either way, I think it's clear the FBI was on scene longer than 5 days and that for whatever reason Ultima will never cede this.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999 Why do I get the feeling that either you did not read the whole post or just did not understand it. The FBI was on scene for a lot longer than 5 days.

If you read the post it states the the FBI (officially) took over the crime seen on Sep. 21 (after the search and rescue). It also states that they turned the crime scene over on Sep. 26. I believe that means the FBI was actually working the crims scene for 5 days.

Originally posted by _Del_ Or he's deliberately trolling. Either way, I think it's clear the FBI was on scene longer than 5 days and that for whatever reason Ultima will never cede this.

Well let me try to explain this as simple as possible. The FBI might have been there longer, BUT THEY DID NOT TAKE OVER THE CRIME SCENE UNTILL SEP. 21 AND THEN TURNED IT BACK OVER ON SEP. 26. What is so difficult to understand what is stated in the post? [edit on 15-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1 I believe that means the FBI was actually working the crims scene for 5 days.

Wrong.

The FBI might have been there longer, BUT THEY DID NOT TAKE OVER THE CRIME SCENE UNTILL SEP. 21 AND THEN TURNED IT BACK OVER ON SEP. 26.

Right. See there is some common ground. Let's sing Kumbaya or something, I feel particularly moved...

Originally posted by _Del_ See there is some common ground.

So you agree the FBI (officially) worked the crime scene for 5 days as stated?

reply to post by ULTIMA1 ULTIMA....you completely ignored the reference, earlier, to the CVR and FDR. AND....you continually ask for the impossible.....you think every part in a B757 has a S/N stamped on it?!? NO! The airframe is assigned a serial number by the factory. Certain components (the engines, for instance) will have a S/N...maybe a better term is 'production number', in both cases. BUT...each individual little part isn't assigned a number....well, that's not entirely correct....they each have a PART Number....this, for parts that are interchangeable. As a 'Crew Cheif' you should be able to realize this. Every screw has a 'PART' number! Do you honestly believe that each screw and rivet has a S/N also??? Do you realize how modern airliners are constructed? The fuselage, for instance, is built in....I'm thinking Kansas. AND, they are constructed in sections, transported to Seattle for final assembly....they are interchangeable, according to the engineering specs! The Landing Gear struts are manufactured, under contract, somewhere else....even China builds components for Boeing!!! Yes, somewhere, in the original records at Boeing, they will probably know each and every component, when it was delivered, from where, and which airframe it was originally installed. BUT, once Boeing delivers the airplane, all Maintenance records are then the responsiblilty of the owner/operator. There is always a paper trail....but you provide none of that, just opinion and innuendo. Find these records, and post them. Use your time to track backwards, I think you'll be surprised at how wrong your original assumptions are, based on your bias toward it being 'faked' in the first place. Of course, I doubt you'll jump to this challenge....even though, in your position at NSA, you have access to far better resources than any of us have..... [edit....sorry, I paragraphed my format, but the post came out as one log sentence.....not my fault] [edit on 5/15/0808 by weedwhacker]