9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

Originally posted by deluded [While I commend your ability to corral all this info together for us I still fail to see any real evidence that a plane hit the Pentagon. If this account is anything close to true could someone please post a picture showing all the damage to the lawn a 757 "dragging it's wing" along the ground might cause? I'm sorry but that's been the lynch pin for me all this time. How could a pilot that had poor piloting skills at best fly a bird that big into a target that small without hitting the ground? Also, why would the wing not have begun to fall apart at contact with the ground?

hey, very true, i, for one, am just doing this because he begged someone to do that, asap, and tbh, i wouldn't have cared, hadn't the guy already posted at least one other outstanding thread on 9/11, showing excellent quality research. --- that said, visible damage to the pentagon and its surroundings does not indicate a plane crash, i'm not sure what it shows, but that's not (yet) the question. i am not willing to outright dismiss all witnesses as brainwashed, so, although the terminal ballistics of the plane theory are sorely lacking, it remains our best bet to explain these eyewitness accounts. unadressed aspects (certainly incomplete, feel free to add more)

• aerodynamic turbulence during treetop-levle flight, or lack thereof
• clipped lightpoles? should i accept this ?
• wing-strike is usually a death sentence, the dragged wing gets slowed and deformed, letting it drop even further...
• even if that's no the case (minor damage), it still leaves marks on the ground, pics please!
• the grass was still green next to the alledged point of impact
• the interior of the collapsed portion showed few signs of scorching heat
• the impact hole itself is likely too small
• there are no signs of damage by wings and engines - folding a plane's wings strains credulity, someone oughtta demonstrate this - by 'live testing' (aka crashing remote plane into an appropriately prepared wall, somewhere in the desert)
• no debris, no part numbers, no nothing except some faked, cut up panels
• the 'exit hole' and its cause

-----

Originally posted by HowardRoark Well if you are counting drywall partitions, then “countless” walls is fairly accurate, but how much effort does it take to punch through a drywall partition?

aircraft are not renowned for their sectional density, are they? 'countless' is a bit unprecise, but the thing (if it really was material) went through 6 outer walls how many internal ones is your guess. furthermore, any part of the aircraft actually penetrating these walls would at least show some deflection at the more durable obstacles, what do you think? of course, the notion that 'it' has to be simply gone after performing such a miracle speaks volumes, too. i've never seen a photo of the wall directly ahead of the hole, but i presume (sorry, sometimes you have to) that the next wall was essentially intact, otherwise that damage would in all likelyhood have been photographed first, along with the elusive penetrator's remains, of course.

Sars to add this in now but I thought there were eyewitness who saw the plane crash into the Pentagon

All i was trying to say the anti conspiracy set allways quote the 1000 or so witnessses that saw the plane crash into the pentagon. At best i have seen a webpage with about 40 documented witnesses seeing a plane crash into the biulding . and about 5 or so witnesses say it was a missle or a missle with wings ,or sounded like a missle. Im going To go off topic just to make a point here. In england we have a guy called darren brown who is an entertainer but is act is all to do with how easy it is to be fooled buy suggestion and hysteria and how just tiny subliminel things can make you do something thing or say something or make a group of random people think the same thing . AND JUST SO YOUR CLEAR HE IS NOT AN HYMPNOTIST. all im trying to say is that its a plane you all expected to see that day crashing into the pentogan. and the power of suggestion is very power full .

Originally posted by Long Lance aircraft are not renowned for their sectional density, are they? 'countless' is a bit unprecise, but the thing (if it really was material) went through 6 outer walls how many internal ones is your guess.

BZZZZZZNNN Wrong! The separate rings did not start until the thrid floor. The plane hit the first floor and travled through the interior space untill it exited out the inner ring drive.

Originally posted by shed7628 All i was trying to say the anti conspiracy set allways quote the 1000 or so witnessses that saw the plane crash into the pentagon. At best i have seen a webpage with about 40 documented witnesses seeing a plane crash into the biulding . and about 5 or so witnesses say it was a missle or a missle with wings ,or sounded like a missle. Im going To go off topic just to make a point here. In england we have a guy called darren brown who is an entertainer but is act is all to do with how easy it is to be fooled buy suggestion and hysteria and how just tiny subliminel things can make you do something thing or say something or make a group of random people think the same thing . AND JUST SO YOUR CLEAR HE IS NOT AN HYMPNOTIST. all im trying to say is that its a plane you all expected to see that day crashing into the pentogan. and the power of suggestion is very power full .

So your sayin they could have dressed up a missile as a plane. What happened to the orginial passangers on the plane?

No im saying they wouldnt need to dress it up as a plane .and im not saying i know what happened that day but i belive you should have an open mind . They wouldnt need to dress it up as a plane because that is what people excpected to see .we often see what we are excpecting when we just have a glimpse or arnt sure . our mind decides for us if we arnt sure . and they only thing our mind would be conditioned to see that day is planes crashing into buildings and not missles. why did the other people see and hear a missle (maybe They were Strong Minded ) I have yet to see any picture of that plane flying low ,or any picture of that plane at all before impact . didnt 1 of the 1000 or so witnesses have a picture phone or camera . if you know of any pictures i would be gratefull. im not on any side of the argument but i think to dissmis something out of hand is not wise . let me put it this way . show me proof that a plane crashed into the pentogan . as for the passengers if your goverment is prepaired to destroy the world trade center it aint going to worry about a plane full of passengers. there has been no black box recordings released. also just an intresting thing we recently had the london bombings here while our goverment is trying to get more laws through like being able to hold someone for 90 days without charge this is scary.lucky it failed thuis time . but as in 9/11 we had 4 seperate events as in 9/11 3 went to plan and 1 failed and went wrong there is now reports saying from witnesses that the floor of the train the metal was bent upwards from the floor as if the bomb was underneath the carriage. No cameras in the underground no reporters can get down there perfect . but just for good mesure we have the one event that went wrong just so i dosent look a little too perfect and give the media something to chew on .

Originally posted by HowardRoark BZZZZZZNNN Wrong! The separate rings did not start until the thrid floor. The plane hit the first floor and travled through the interior space untill it exited out the inner ring drive.

ugh, so your walls are suspended in the air, not resting on the basement, riiight. i mean you can't actually write this with a straight face, can you? on top of that, it's borderline irrelevant, sheer penetration is just one aspect, raising suspicion, not the whole story. plus, as said, even if portions of an airliner were rigid and heavy enough to penetrate, they would have to be found somewhere past the hole. they couldn't have been small, because of the required weight and sectional density, which makes their disappearance completely implausible. the entire picture does not add up.

Hmmmm there's a big problem with "eye witneses" Even cops say eye witneses are very unreliable.... Take the shooting of Jene Menezes by trigger happy London cops for example. Eye witnesses claimed to have seen wires sticking out of his shirt. Eye witnesses claimed to have seen him running from cops. Eye witnesses claimed to have seen him jump the gate. Eye witnesses claimed to have said they heard cops tell him to stop and lay down. Eye witnesses claimed to have seen him carrying a bag and running from the police. As we now know, none of these eye witness reports were even close to being true. Just as bogus as the eye witness reports from the pentagoon?

The spot where the plane hit was near completion of a total overhaul, only a few days left for last minor checks; with kevlar-netted outer walls, extremely strong new windows and explosionproof glass in them, columns in outer and inner walls specially reinforced with tubular reinforced steel, no reinforced inner walls between first, E-ring's outer wall and thirds, C-ring's outer wall lower than the third floor in all three rings (effectively it was one big officespace devided by drywalls and 2 floordecks), and reinforced new floor-decks. SPECIAL NOTES LT : A. - As you know by now, I believe that plane was remotely steered by someone in that C-130 Army radar jamming plane. And if there were passengers and crew, and hijackers, they were all powerless regarding the path of the plane. I also believe that the hijackers were told : 1. that they didn't have to steer the plane, only to get the pilots out of the cockpit, and defend that cockpit door, and 2. that Al Qaida had taken posession of the remote controlling software of those planes, build-in in the late nineties. So that left them with the relatively simple task of securing ONE cockpit door, so pilots could not shut off any automatic piloting systems. And thus the hijackers (if there were any at all) entered heaven the way "they planned", without realizing that they were patsies for the PENAC crowd. They were told that the flying lessons were only a propaganda tool afterwards, to show those american bastards that muslims could perform much better than thought before by mainstream USA . And thus heightening the fear factor afterwards. How convenient that that was true for "Al Qaida" and PENAC alike. B. - I'm also convinced that factual power in the USA is taken over since the Kennedy assassinations by a faction in the military, working under the guidelines of a secret group of bankers, politicians and CEO's from the military-industrial complex, which has been given far too much power by all the other greedy, opportunistic but not yet assimilated politicians. The very ones the US citizens constantly vote in power again, trusting them to govern the USA the best possible way. Because they are fed to believe that if you'r a good Capitalist, proven to have earned a lot of money with hard and "honest" work, you automatically are also best suited to govern a country instead of a company. Well, you'd better forget those idealistic daydreams by now. Every day you see clearer what that turns out to. If you care for your country, you must also TAKE care of your country, and don't put your trust in greedy monsters anymore. The same people who managed to have "lost" 7.3 TRILLION dollar of Pentagon funds, which was very suspiciously announced on 10 Sept 2001 by Rumsfeld, and while all media lackeys were sharpening their pencils to try to make that "goodlooking" that evening, all their efforts were nullified the next day, and nobody ever talked about it anymore, even when Rumsfeld had the brutality of promissing to "go to the bottom of this" in the same announcement, and has proven to be the biggest liar of all since then; he only added more lost money to that pile....and has not made a single move to check upon those lost heaps of money. He only blocked any form of investigation up till now. Are you guys over there in the USA feeding on fairytale-food ? C. - Nobody ever noticed something very strange in the penetration path of the plane through the building ? We saw in the first post of Catherder in this thread, that the plane entered the building at the FIRST floor level of E-ring. But nobody saw something strange in the fact that we see a circular exit hole in the outer wall of C-ring at GROUND LEVEL. That means plane parts must have crossed under a VERY small angle a VERY LONG stretch of reinforced concrete floors between the ground level space and the first floor. I do NOT see ANY sign in any reports, photo's etc., of a ripped-open first floordeck over at least 50 meters. I also do not see an exit hole, which we should expect to see, above first floordeck level in the outer walls of the third, C-ring. I do however see in the MIT report with that computerized penetration path in it, showing all those broken, disappeared and damaged inner collumns, a slab of concrete of the ground-floor ceiling (= first floordeck) which was lifted - ! UP ! And that was already in the second, not collapsed D-ring, to the left of the collapsed part of the first, E-ring (53 degrees entry, keep remembering that fact). We can conclude a few things from the following, Telltaling facts : 1. - The plane came in under an angle of 53 degrees to the horizontal pane. 2. - The plane hit the wall under an angle of no more than a few degreesto the vertical pane, or leveled. ......Because we know that the first photo's showed an entry hole with a still INTACT first floor deck, ......and we have a photo of the original exit hole at ground (street) level in the C-ring outer wall, ......that's only about 3 meter height-difference over about 100 meter penetration path. 3. - The planes heaviests parts are all situated in the lower one third of the planes body : ......The fuselage with landing gears, center fuel tanks, water tanks, wings filled with fuel, ......and the jet engines hanging even lower under the wings, which both are level with the bottom of the plane. ......Engines weighting each 6 metric tons. 4. - Plane parts must have ricogetted off from numerous columns on ground level and 1st floor level. 5. - The exit hole has only minimal fire soothing at the top, indicating minimal fires after exit of debris. Conclusions : 1. - If the plane entered under a wing angle of a few degrees, ca. 6, as we are left to believe, then the right ......engine should have entered at least on first floor level, and probably higher since we are left also ......to believe that the diesel generator truck deflected the right engine a bit, microseconds before ......hitting the wall. I'm not so sure about that, saw photo's of the top of that truck, and it only had a ......deep scratch on the front cabine, together with a 45 cm deep dent in the cabine roof. ......I think one of those vertical fins under the wing, to the right of the engine, caused that. ......If the engine would have hit smack-on to that truck, there would have been NO truck left, period! 2. - Then the left engine should have plowed through the grass or scorched the concrete of the heli-pad. 3. - If the plane entered perfectly level, as I believe, that means that at that speed, the wings are bowed up .....as they always do at those high speeds, and both engines must have entered under the first floor deck. 4. - The right engine must have hit the wall first, since the plane hit under a 53 degrees angle. There was also .....a tree in the way, what most people seem to forget, thus forcing the right wing + the whole body of the plane .....and the left wing a bit towards the wall just before impact, thus forcing the left engine to hit the wall under .....a slightly acelerated arc inwards to the planes body. But that will not have been of any major influence, time .....was definitely to short. Now most of you have ever played pool biljart or a pinball machine, so they know what happens when a fast moving object hits an object in rest. It gets catapulted away, (if it not breaks it!) depending on the angle it hits that object in rest. Think of the ball hitting the sidebars. Now imagine thousands of plane parts hitting hundreds of collumns. And those collumns act a bit elastic at first. That's a mighty BIG pinball machine you just imagined. Don't you think the destruction field of the reflected parts would be a titbit wider than the MIT guys computed, regarding the factual damage to all the Pentagon columns ? But, they fed their mainframe with those FACTS alone, and not with, also after that kind of programming, let's say 2000 heavier plane parts ripped apart on impact with the outer wall, entering the building and starting to play pinball with all those standing collumns in their path. Would be interesting to know what that program would have come up with in that case. So the moment I saw that simulation, I thought, what a onesided kind of simulation. They didn't perform a double blank. And started to think what could have caused that circular exit hole. I came up with 2 possibilities, since I could only explain that last hole by a hit with an extremely fast speeding FLUID ! 1. - Fuel + water from the drinking water tanks and toilets, streamed around all pillars and collumns, and hit the C-ring wall at last as mainly a small massive tube of fluid. The aluminum parts of the plane fluidized also for a big part, but were much less dense, so did not make it to the C-ring. A fast moving stream of fluid, meeting a pillar, will split around it, if it is wider as the diameter of the collumn, and combine again behind it. 2. - These "planners" loaded the luggage-bay of that plane with drums filled with Depleted Uranium, of which they have an abundancy laying around for the taker, and at impact, the DU immediately fluidized and ignited, and hit all those pillars and got partly deflected (just as the fuel + water btw), but the main leftover column of speeding DU fluid hit the last C-ring wall as a tubular entity, and neatly chipped out that exit hole with it's last energy, enough to kick that hole in the wall. That was probably not planned like that. Remember, one of the Pentagon eyewitnesses who was inside when the plane hit, ducked to the ground, and felt the hot flame pass over his head inwards, and then it RETURNED back out. So the "fluid" did not touched the floor, or he would have been fried. And I also think if he was in the path of any burning fuel or whatever, his ducking was much too late. In that case, the fueltanks hit even higher up. So that gives an indication how high the fuselage-fueltanks in the plane, hit the already punched hole in the front wall. And remember also those substantially higher Geiger counts that were found on and after 9/11 in and around the Pentagon area. And especially that rediculous third full evacuation of the rescue area at the Pentagon, THE DAY AFTER. Just check where that one originated from, and you start to believe... [edit on 23/11/05 by LaBTop]

Originally posted by Long Lance ugh, so your walls are suspended in the air, not resting on the basement, riiight. i mean you can't actually write this with a straight face, can you? on top of that, it's borderline irrelevant, sheer penetration is just one aspect, raising suspicion, not the whole story.

As Labtop pointed out, this is an extremely long thread. This particular point has bess brought up more than once way back on page 23, and 96, or was page 9 and 106?  In any case, no the walls disn’t float on air, they were supported by columns and beams. Please note, the squares used to represent the columns in that map are not to scale. They are exaggerated in size for that map.

plus, as said, even if portions of an airliner were rigid and heavy enough to penetrate, they would have to be found somewhere past the hole. they couldn't have been small, because of the required weight and sectional density, which makes their disappearance completely implausible. the entire picture does not add up.

I believe that one of the pictures showed the remains of the landing gear (the wheel, at least) in the hole. Furthermore, as I pointed out many, many pages ago, that is a simple, non-load bearing masonry wall. It appears to be two wythes of common brick with a wythe of face brick. This type of wall is fairly easy to knock a hole in. A close look at the picture reveals that the brick appears to have broken cleanly at the vertical control joints. In addition, you can see the remains of the plaster lath from the inside wall in the pictures

i'm pretty open about what happened at the pentagon, now. i still say the official story is hiding SOMETHING(duh) but i do think a large plane hit the pentagon. however, why is there a 'no parking anytime' sign on that roof? just honestly curious. was there automobile access to the rings?

Oooookayyyyyyy... Howard... So you are saying that this wall is just a brick wall... Let's see... Numbers on the picture: 1. Face brick 2. Common brick 3. ? 4. ? 5. ? What's behind bricks (looking from this point where this photo was taken of course...) ? To me it looks like reinforced concrete. Don't think that Pentagon walls are just brick walls. And... If i'm right... I don't think that this grabage that supposed to be landing gear would be able to make such big hole in this wall. Don't you think ?

Dude, You do realize that the Pentagon was built in the early 40’s don’t you? That is quite probably the original plaster lath wall. You are looking at. 1) Face brick 2) Common brick 3) Plaster scratch coat 4) Wire mesh plaster lath 5) Black iron support channel (used to support the wire mesh lath in position) Here is a site that shows how these walls were put together www.bobvila.com... You can also see that the ceiling was plaster in that photo. In addition, FWIW, if you look at the pipe exposed on the left side of the hole, you can see aluminum bands on the pipe insulation every two feet or so. This indicates that the pipe insulation was corrugated Aircell, an asbestos containing material.

Originally posted by billybob however, why is there a 'no parking anytime' sign on that roof? just honestly curious. was there automobile access to the rings?

That is the inner service drive, it is possible to drive vehicles into the area inside of the E ring. (not big vehicles, the fire trucks wouldn't fit)

Originally posted by HowardRoark I believe that one of the pictures showed the remains of the landing gear (the wheel, at least) in the hole.

yes, and here's one where its all missing. whatever, diagonally penetrating a solid building remains an, i dare to say, impossible task for a 757's airframe, even if it's in column dodging mode.... ------------------

Originally posted by LaBTop ... And started to think what could have caused that circular exit hole. I came up with 2 possibilities, since I could only explain that last hole by a hit with an extremely fast speeding FLUID ! ...

www.ceebd.co.uk... melting point above 1100C... i'm sorry, even if it was DU based fluid (normal DU would have been solid, we're not talking about discarding sabots travelling at 4500fps) it wouldn't simply vanish, or would it? are you aware of certain anti-tank weapons utilising a copper filler (of course, the exact substance can be negotiated..) to give the shaped charge more punch? i'd rather use that, because all it would leave is metal dust, not some outlandish fluid everyone would quickly notice. an offshoot is of course, the use of DU powder instead... would you deem that an acceptable modification? final thoughts: mounting such a dense device or cargo into an aircraft would probably require structural precautions, so i suggest you consider the plane substitution theory, in various shades btw, do you consider the last approach pattern OK now, LabTop ? [edit on 23-11-2005 by Long Lance]

I believe a plane hit the pentagon, but a missile was struck it also ( as evidenced in by the white smoke trail in the 5 frames and the numerous pentagon staffers who recognized the smell of cordite). Without a missile the 'exit hole' would not be at the position where it was. Because based on the angle of initial outer wall contact a lone 757 upon disintegration would have deflected to some degree as its' mass contacted each of the six walls before exit. Whereas the actual exit hole is perfectly lined up with the angle of entry... meaning there was zero deflection. Only a solid mass penetrating projectile could penetrate the mass of 6 walls with zero deflection. In other words a 'missile' of some sort was involved... which allowed the disintegrated aircraft debris to follow the path of penetration.

Originally posted by Zamboni Without a missile the 'exit hole' would not be at the position where it was. Because based on the angle of initial outer wall contact a lone 757 upon disintegration would have deflected to some degree as its' mass contacted each of the six walls before exit. Whereas the actual exit hole is perfectly lined up with the angle of entry... meaning there was zero deflection.

Se my post at the top of this page. There were only two exterior walls. and once again, the column sizes on that map are exagerated by at least 400 %.

Your top post's linked picture shows a red x , but regardless. We can count just the same. 1st wall is the reinforced concrete impact area wall. 2nd wall is exit brick wall for the first ring. 3rd wall is the entry brick wall for the second ring. 4rth wall is the exit brick wall for the second ring. 5th wall is the entry brick wall for the 3rd ring. 6th wall is the final exit brick wall and labelled as such. Then factor in each ring's support collumns .. there is NO likelyhood of an disintegrating aircraft mass causing a direct line of penetration without deflection.

I stand corrected after viewing the blueprints there were just two walls ... one the exterior reinforced concrete entry wall and the C ring exit hole brick wall. However their should have been at least some deflection with a disintegrating mass... especially with the number of impacted support columns. If the Government would just release the confiscated DOT,Gas Station and complete parking lot videos this debated wouldn't be happening because it would SHOW the missile lauch in more detail.

Originally posted by Zamboni I stand corrected after viewing the blueprints there were just two walls ... one the exterior reinforced concrete entry wall and the C ring exit hole brick wall.

dude, stick to your six walls, their support structures (feel better now? ) are founded in the basement, why noone acknowledges this little evil detail is beyond me. + clearly lots of severed and damaged columns, of course that's not comparable to hitting a solid wall, even though stress to the airframe would be greater, due to the smaller impact surfaces involved, right? on top of that all other obstacles were made from styrofoam and the 757 was lubed before take-off, lol [edit on 24-11-2005 by Long Lance]