How SOPA (as written) might kill ATS and free speech online (UPDATED)

Originally posted by jeichelberg
reply to post by Observor

 

I understand the concerns; however, the site owner need not be responsible...He/she simply need demonstrate the ability to monitor...

I have provided the solution...Pay the moderators...hold them ACCOUNTABLE through work agreements and standards....

If the site owners want to do this to maintain their income stream, they will do it...if they do not, then bye-bye ATS...

Your solution may work if the objective of the bill is strictly to prevent piracy. In which case, the bill would require that the site owner be first complained to and only when they fail to address the complaints or if too many violations are seen unaddressed until a complaint is lodged, take the step of blocking the site. However, the fact that a single complaint, without even informing the site owner, can cause a site to be blocked means a site can be blackmailed into falling inline with other agendas unrelated to piracy. If the site doesn't fall in line, it is extremely easy for them get one person to signup, post some copyrighted material, take screen shots before it is removed, lodge a complaint and get the site blocked.

By the way, merely because some profit from intellectual property, doesn't mean they have to necessarily support eveything that claims to be in their interests. Human beings may support principles that don't have a direct advantage or even cause immediate disadvantage, because they believe in the principle. Whether it is principles or self-interest driving the ATS' opposition to SOPA is something that is unlikely to be known one way or another.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

As for paid moderation, I would rather not have to pay to use ATS or any other alternative site of my choice. I think the management/owners understand this and try to keep costs down. Paid moderation will not really solve anything if the government is out to get us. Look what happened to middle eastern nations when the governments were ready to fall. America is no exception. The controllers must be getting desperate!

HA HA HA...please, you need to get a job doing stand up...

The only controllers here are the site owners...Costs of moderation? You do realize the owners get paid based on hits right? They are making PLENTY of free cash based on use of the site alone....they can charge advertising fees based site use and hits...anyone who wants to advertise here at ATS will pay a fee based on the amount of users the site receives...

This has ZERO to do with keeping "costs down." This has everything to do with keeping profits to themselves...SO and other site owners DO NOT WANT TO PAY moderators....and I do not blame them....

HOWEVER, THEY will need to do the job of moderation themselves in order to comply with this law...and they do not want to do that either...so...they start a fire, hoping to suck the fuel out of SOPA...

Rather than PAY people to do a proper job...

Moderators here need to be aware....

Jeichelberg, I'm failing to understand your insistence that a paid moderator would be held more accountable than a volunteer moderator. This is utterly false to it's core. The merits of a good moderator aren't dictated by money, but by far & wide their dedication to the forum subject matter. If I were to run a site like this, I would darn sure be looking for the people NOT motivated by a salary, but by a well-shown desire for preserving & maintaining the community's morals & ethics. And I personally feel that this is where you falter in your argument, that you put money at the top of the Importance Pyramid. In a community such as ATS, dedication, in case you haven't noticed, reigns. I would expect the same level of dedication from the moderators as we do from posters, and THEN some. Thus far, the moderators have done a phenomenal job of quelling fights, serving as impartial temper-coolers, participating fairly in topics, et al. While I'm sure a little financial compensation would be a nice perk, I'm downright POSITIVE that the love of the site would keep them in their positions more than the almighty dollar would. I would much rather see a volunteer moderator working full hilt than a paid one slacking off because of "job security".

Furthermore, SOPA is not about whether or not there are paid people watching or not, it's the same work regardless. SOPA is about an iron-fist approach to dealing with piracy, and as a whole, it paints everyone with the same brush. If ONE rotten tomato on ATS links a forbidden site, and ATS is reported for that link, the entire community suffers for that via shutdown. I don't appreciate being lumped with the bad apples to placate.

Originally posted by jeichelberg
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

I want you to fully understand my philosophy, so you will not continue to "look foolish," as you purport me to be...granted, you would probably win that argument in your own mind, on the basis of POST popularity in terms of STARS or other MEANINGLESS DISPLAY of support...

I don't really care about stars of flags, and I don't get that many despite the fact this is an alternative site. My posts are usually too ecentric/fringe even by ATS standards. Normally it takes someone with an iq of 100 or higher to decipher my "encoded messages", but in your case it was KISS(keep it simple stupid) to avoid confusion on such an important topic.

Perhaps you should demonstrate exactly HOW SOPA will harm Skeptic...instead of throwing out fear...

He and others explained that numerous times. Where have you been?

I for one believe all laws are meaningless...after all, LOCKS ARE THERE TO PREVENT HONEST PEOPLE from breaking into other peoples' homes...

Sorry I am not a government hater. I am a right wing hater though and somewhat progressive aka social democrat. I support OWS which you probably hate. I take your criticism as a badge of honor.

reply to post by Nyiah


Do I think people want to do a job, paid for it or not? Yeah, I believe such people exist...tell me how this pertains to the issue at hand?

I am telling you this..SO and other site owners here object to SOPA simply because they do not want to protect peoples' intellectual property....That is the bottom line...

If they PAID the moderators, they could then HOLD them truly accountable to WORK PERFORMANCE AND STANDARDS... and that would meet the requirements of SOPA...and would establish a LEGITIMATE paper trail...something that WOULD HOLD UP and truly serve to DENY IGNORANCE....but NOOOOOO...

They do not want to give up their control of what is posted here and their ownership and the rest of the T&C concerning member contributions...that is why they require CITING OF SOURCE MATERIAL and all the quote thingys...

Right now, with moderators UNPAID, they cannot TRULY hold them accountable, and therefore the site remains somewhat a mess in terms of legitimacy...

Paid moderation would really clean things up...

reply to post by jeichelberg

Yet, here you are engaged in the "core," and miraculously "out-of-pocket..."

And here you are unable to see the forest because the trees are in your way.

This is like saying fires are set by fire fighters...or computer viruses are written by programmers from Symantec or McAfee...perhaps this is true, but it takes a lot more than your unsupported claims....please provide CLEAR EXAMPLES...

Congratulations! You figured it out. "Problem>Reaction>Solution" at its finest. The evidence, and the clear examples are all around you sir. If you figured out what you put in the above statement by yourself, then the rest isn't much of a stretch, is it?

Again...Where is the PROOF of these claims?

Again. The evidence is all around you. A little deductive reasoning on a large scale is all it takes to see the writing on the wall.

We are thinking, but what I really think right now, is that you just want everybody to take your word for it and not think at all...

If I wanted everybody to take my word for it, I would have posted it on facebook. This is ATS. I expect those who frequent this forum to question their mother if she says she loves them. That's what we do here.

"THINK about it." Don't take my word for it. If you disagree, fine. I can live with that.

reply to post by Nyiah

Jeichelberg, I'm failing to understand your insistence that a paid moderator would be held more accountable than a volunteer moderator. This is utterly false to it's core.

FUNNY!!! Your failure to understand does not prohibit you from labeling my thoughts concerning paid moderation as "utterly false."

It seems to me you left the house without your pants on there, sparky...

Please, turn the car around, and go back into your house...get FULLY DRESSED, and then attempt to make an appropriate appearance...

reply to post by Klassified


Once again, my making the statements or you making the statements are not enough...Just because I put the argumentation the same form as you, does NOT MAKE THEM TRUE...

Telling me it is as plain as the nose on my face IS NOT ENOUGH...you do understand that, right?

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by Klassified

 

I don't think big business appreciates piracy, but they along with the government are allowing it, to have the perfect excuse to ram some trojan horse legislation down our throat before the gullible masses ever realise they have been taken for a ride.

Much like allowing 9-11 to happen so they could ram DHS and the opportunity to invade two sovereign nations. The people behind coporate globalisation have a dubious agenda. I won't call it sinister just yet, but their surreptitious methods are truely worrying to people who are informed.

I can agree with much of what you've said here on one level my friend. And well said too.

But I work in an industry that literally thrives on the piracy perpetrated against it. It took me years to see it. But once I did, it really opened my eyes to the ways of the world so to speak. I would call it sinister. To the extreme. Thanks for your thoughts.

reply to post by jeichelberg

I have seen NO support for your arguments here, but you seem to think everyone can see the superiority of your position. That is called delusion.
As has been stated before, it is you that cannot read the writing on the wall. I suppose you haven't checked out the articles in the OP? Greater minds differ with you. Sometimes one should read, listen and learn rather than attempt to "teach" wiser people.

reply to post by jeichelberg


By your reasoning, should all forums, public & private alike, have to implement paid moderators? I ask because I'm on several forums, public and private. I can see an unattainable requirement for the private ones, reason being that beyond simple group fundraising once in a while to pay for hosting, there is no income for them. No money is made whatsoever. However, you still insist this be implemented due to a necessary paper tail to follow to hold people accountable. There is a mortal flaw in you armor there, friend.

As to the "protecting intellectual property" argument, I see it as admirable, but grotesquely flawed & ripe for undeniable abuse in it's current form. Until a much better alternative can be agreed upon, one that does not dragnet everyone at once for the sins of the few, then it is an authoritarian measure by it's own definition.

Originally posted by jeichelberg
reply to post by Klassified

 

Once again, my making the statements or you making the statements are not enough...Just because I put the argumentation the same form as you, does NOT MAKE THEM TRUE...

Telling me it is as plain as the nose on my face IS NOT ENOUGH...you do understand that, right?

My fellow ATSer. I think you just love to debate for its own sake. I stated a strong opinion based on my experience, and you disagree. I don't have a problem with that. If I wanted everyone to agree with me, I'd go where everyone thinks like I do. But unlike you, I find great value in perspectives other than my own. Including yours.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

My posts are usually too ecentric/fringe even by ATS standards. It takes someone with an iq of 100 or better to decipher my encoded messages.

Yeah, I can understand you thinking your posts are of such high quality that only those deeply versed in esoteric methods could possibly understand...

But let's get real and put down the baloney sandwiches...

He and others explained that numerous times. Where have you been?

Why don't you take your OWN swings at the pitches while you are at the plate?

I saw Skeptic's post and I saw it lacking...

Your posts, as of right now, LACK MORE, because you are either TOO AFRAID or INCAPABLE of explaining things in your OWN WORDS...

I support OWS which you probably hate. I take your criticism as a badge of honor.

I could care less one way or another about OWS...or your support for it...what does that have to do with SOPA? What, are you now going to try to make an appeal to NUMBERS in support of your position? I thought you said:

I don't really care about stars of flags, and I don't get that many despite the fact this is an alternative site...

LACK OF BULLETS!!! Please go argue the existence of tiddlywinks and their proper use if they do exist...

reply to post by SurrealisticPillow



Hey, I have my position...you agree or disagree, fine...you think you are a wiser than me because of your position, fine...Have at it...

You say potato...

Originally posted by jeichelberg
The people who engage in business utilizing the Internet have right to engage in that business, free from the worry of having their ideas or intellectual property stolen...

Piracy (software or Internet) is antithetical to this concept...

Agreed. Stealing content is wrong. Those who do it should be appropriately punished.

Skeptic is worried about SOPA because he does not pay his moderators.

That's not even close. Our site is highly regarded for our moderation and efficient management. So much so that the Interactive Advertising Bureau and Google have both invited us to do presentations to their people about how we've been able to keep a site with such provocative topics free of complaints for more than seven years.

Rather than do this, Skeptic and the others would just as soon keep ALL the PROFITS

Don't assume that a site such as ATS has such significant "profits."




Here's an analogy of what SOPA means.

(1) Let's say lawmakers have noticed a steady rise in bank robberies... and feel something needs to be done.

(2) In researching the reason for the rise in robberies, they've determined that a significant percentage of robberies involve a "get-away" via a car.

(3) In researching the high-percentage of successful robberies using a car, they've determined engine horsepower and certain tires have contributed to the successful get-aways.

(4) So they pass a law to restrict all vehicles to a maximum horsepower that falls under the get-away average horsepower, and also outlaw low-profile performance tires.

(5) The law also allows for any citizen witnessing a bank robbery to file a complaint regarding the specific car that was used, resulting in the nation-wide banning of that particular car... without investigation.

(6) The law also allows for the shutting down of any service station or independent mechanic who improves the engine horsepower of a "legal" car, even for non-criminal reasons, and also would shut down that mechanic even if he mentions he "could" increase the horsepower of cars.


Better perspective?

Originally posted by jeichelberg
reply to post by Nyiah

 

I am telling you this..SO and other site owners here object to SOPA simply because they do not want to protect peoples' intellectual property....That is the bottom line...

You obviously haven't been around here very long then. There have been many occasions during my time on the boards where the owners have gone as far as legal action in order to protect the content posted by members.of ATS.

I don't recall the specific members off the top of my head, but when a member's threads or content were posted elsewhere, they took whatever action necessary to ensure the content was either removed or the author given their due and proper attribution.

Originally posted by Nyiah
reply to post by jeichelberg

 

By your reasoning, should all forums, public & private alike, have to implement paid moderators? I ask because I'm on several forums, public and private. I can see an unattainable requirement for the private ones, reason being that beyond simple group fundraising once in a while to pay for hosting, there is no income for them. No money is made whatsoever. However, you still insist this be implemented due to a necessary paper tail to follow to hold people accountable. There is a mortal flaw in you armor there, friend.

As I have already stated, I do not believe any laws are worth more than those already willing to follow them...anyone who is anti-law, though, has a different agenda...Locks (laws) exist to keep honest people honest...

Anyone who wants to be in the business (paid or unpaid, for profit or not-for-profit) will need to learn how to keep their house in order when it comes to issues of copy written material...The only people who do not want this supported are either lazy or greedy...You may think being accountable is a "mortal flaw," but that does not surprise me...

As to the "protecting intellectual property" argument, I see it as admirable, but grotesquely flawed & ripe for undeniable abuse in it's current form. Until a much better alternative can be agreed upon, one that does not dragnet everyone at once for the sins of the few, then it is an authoritarian measure by it's own definition.

The word "better,' is subjective...by this standard, the Model T should have never been used....everyone should have waited for an instance of a safer way to keep warm than an open campfire...

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

I am not sure your opponent in this debate is operating in good faith.
It appears to me that he requires the ACT to state intention, and the sponsors to state intention, to believe there is any unstated objective. Furthermore, unforeseen consequences are perhaps beyond the comprehension of some even when the argument is made by multiple industry professionals.
I think it is simple obfuscation on the parts of the authors and proponents of this ACT, and by your opponent in this debate.
My opinion.

Originally posted by jeichelberg
Locks (laws) exist to keep honest people honest...

Does anyone think they can reason with someone who takes such a ridiculously ignorant, and uneducated stance?

Originally posted by jeichelberg

LACK OF BULLETS!!! Please go argue the existence of tiddlywinks and their proper use if they do exist...

Right. Anything that does not fit the corporate propaganda model gets labeled as "tiddlywinks".

Don't worry my friend, socialism is knocking on the door and obama will eventually answer with *yes sir*.

The days of the treasonous republican party are limited as they become exposed for the corporate shills they are!

Who came up with this bill? A republican from texas. Who was blocking the tax breaks? republicans. Who started all these phoney wars? republicans Who gives tax breaks to the rich and then cuts social security? republicans.

I have read your posts here for a while and you can't fool me. I bet you hate ron paul as well, as perhaps he is an exception to the right is scum policy.