Do gun owners need to get permission to defend ourselves?

This mother even had the presence of mind to put a bottle in the babies mouth before she went to get her second gun! Talk about keeping cool under pressure.

I wonder what would have happened if the 911 operator had said 'no' or something less rational than 'do what you have to' ... would the mom have hesitated then? I hope not because this could have been as bad as The Wichita Massacre or worse...that story converted me to pro gun, still gets me enraged when I think about the details.

This lady deserves a medal for ridding the world of that opportunistic sicko...too bad his buddy got away with his life.

I wonder if it wouldn't had been justified if the door wasn't locked.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Hell in Canada a few years ago, 2 cops entered a house during the night without any warrant to get someone without announcing themselves, the guy just took them out as he thought they were robbers and he was cleared of all charges... which was a huge victory for the people...

So no, people don't need permission.

Do animals need permission to defend themselves from predators? No they don't. Same thing here.

Guns, the great equalizer, where a 100 pound woman can take out a 250 lbs robber.

Natural law....

edit on 4-1-2012 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

I remember that, I think the cops went in the wrong address or something, when everyone was in bed. The homeowner had no reason to expect cops to ever come into his house, unannounced. I think the homeowner also had young children to protect, so he did right.

I still worry about the "reasonable force" law though. Right now, I have dogs, but at some point, as I age, a gun might be easier to handle than extra large dogs.
As a woman, I don't know what they consider reasonable force. Do I have to try to run and hide first? Do I have to be injured first? Almost dead?
It could depend on the judge.

Originally posted by TheMindWar
I live in the UK with probably the toughest gun laws in the world. My problem with our laws is I no longer have the ability to protect myself from criminals.

According to our laws I have the god given right to protect myself using reasonable force, what bloody good is that if my house is burgled by some criminal with a gun?

It should be my right to carry a firearm in my own house for protection against gun toting criminals, only criminals have guns in our country.

I am from the UK and have two samurai swords hanging up on my wall that would do a fair job.

Personally, I feel that one armed with a 12 ga shotgun should be able to hold a person armed with a knive at bay without having to shoot to kill as long as there is a safe distance between you and the intruder (I know that they can close a 20 ft gap in 2 secs) and they do not make a threatening move. But that is how I would handle it. Hold them at bay til the police arrived. But when your home is invaded by one or more intruders you dont know if they are armed or not...they could have a sawed off shotgun - you just dont know. So if threatened it is your call whether or not to end their life...much like the police do when they are threatened. But you have a greater right to defend your home and kill an intruder than say a policeman who is called to the home of a disturbed individual and that person brandishes a steak knife and tells the police to leave and then is shot dead because the officer "felt threatened."

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


You're assuming the attacker would stop advancing on you, which this guy didn't. Not to mention he had an accomplice lurking around somewhere that could have somehow gotten behind her or distracted her enough to take the gun from her. Why take the chance?

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


Why?

A dangerous person intent on doing you harm, with an accomplice. They are no benefit to society, they are a threat. There are so many ways it could go wrong and you could be a victim, and even if you are successful, they are out of jail in a few months and victimizing someone else. Nope. As long as their intent is clear, and so is your shot, then take it.

reply to post by satron


Yep, she still could of shot him. Once a person enters your home, IE, the door, without your permission, you have every right to defend yourself and your property.
In some states it can go as far as your yard, however not everywhere.
In Alaska, they must enter your home before you can shoot them. I am not sure about anywhere else because I have not been in a situation anywhere else where I felt the need to have a loaded 9mm.

In AK I did after me and my roommates were threatened with an ak47 by a crazy guy we let stay with us for a week. He didn't want to leave, and the police had to take him out at gun point because he loaded his ak47 and threatened to kill anyone who would walk into HIS trailer.

He said he would kill us and burn the place down when he got out, which was only a few weeks later, so we all had to be armed and ready for anything. I kept a 9mm at my bedside.

The police were aware of the situation, and explained that he MUST enter the doorway in a threatening manner in order to defend ourselves, thankfully he never did.

They also pushed that we didn't want to kill him, which we all agreed, no one wanted anyone to get hurt, but we all felt the need to defend our lives if he did come back.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen

Shoot first, ask questions later. The only (or one of the few) scenario to match the statement imho. Their intentions were quite obvious in any case and they were most definitely "up to no good".

I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.

reply to post by RedParrotHead

They would have to be stopped in their tracks at the point of contact (not necessarily the point of entry)...if they kept advancing then (with safety off and gun pointed at their center mass) a quick pull of the trigger should end the threat. I would not ask for permission.

reply to post by getreadyalready

What if you kill some one's kid or father and it wasn't totally necessary if they surrendered at gunpoint and then their son or father vowed to kill you in revenge (not caring that their relative was the culprit and guilty of an armed breakin with intent to rob at knife point and prepared to do bodily harm or even kill)? You would be justified in protecting yourself against this relative also but they might just come up to your door and shoot you in broad daylight. (Not that the threat of the above hypothetical scenario would influence me if the invaders didnt surrender).

reply to post by RedParrotHead


No you don't need permission .. but the fact that she was on 911 for that long and did ask means there is pretty much no investigation needed, she's completely free of having to deal with police second guessing her or wondering if it was a murder and then she says it was an intruder or whatever. Honestly, good move on her part, she covered her bases. And Darwinism to an extreme.. what imbecile spends 21 mins trying to break down a door when they know the homeowner called the cops?? He doubly deserved to die.

Still, shooting someone regardless of justification is not easy.. she lost her husband and killed a man in the same week. She's probably been traumatized.

Edit: I should say some states you don't need permission. Some states that do not support Castle Laws you'll likely be charged and or investigated anyways.. For instance, Oklahoma is a "Stand Your Ground" and supports "Castle Doctrine" .. this means, if attacked anywhere for any reason you are not obligated to retreat, you can shoot to kill.

But if you're in say.. DC .. you have no clear right to defense in your own home.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


All true, and even likely. The family that raised that criminal is likely to not see the fault in their own offspring, and they are probably just as criminal. There is no defense for someone that would walk up and kill you in broad daylight without warning. There just isn't any answer for that, but it is still a very bad idea to try and capture a criminal.

The criminal has all of the experience, and no fear or respect for the law or consequences, and they are willing to do things you are uncomfortable with. The criminal has the upper hand, so you cannot take a chance on keeping them at bay while you wait 21 minutes for police to show up. If the threat is real, and you have a clear chance to end the situation, then end it. Don't waste time and take additional risks. Plus, what a girlfriend's Dad and Detective told me a long time ago, "Dead men tell no lies." If he is there to spin his side of the story, things get very complicated. If he is dead, it is only your side of the story that matters.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


Related thread related ATS thread here

Better to shoot. Operating the phone may distract you or impair your ability to shoot. And/or their back up man may be behind you like in the movies.

Shoot em first. If they have no business in your house they should expect to be shot.

It would be better to know the rules ahead of time. Sounds to me as if the 911 operator did not really know the rules either. If you have guns, you should take the time to learn the rules for use. As we are doing here.

I am so proud of this mother. Good for her. If it is my children or the guy stupid enough to come through that door going down...he is going down.

I also think it is brilliant that she called 911 so everything anyone could ask is all on tape. She has been through enough losing her husband to cancer on Christmas Day.

Again, she should be a very proud Momma. There is nothing more fierce than a Momma protecting her child.

Link to video from Good Morning America

I am a 63 year old disabled woman. I had a gun customized for my hand in 1995. I took the course, applied for a concealed weapons permit and got it. 4 years later, I went to renew my permit and was refused because I was Canadian even though I have been in the US most of my life. In Dec. 2010, on my own property, I felt the need to defend myself against a man who would not let me leave. I simply held the gun, in it's holster, on my lap pointed at the man and repeatedly told him to back off. Eventually his friends pulled him away from my car and called the police. They took my gun, and 5 months later charged me with a number of things. I pled not guilty but had a totally useless public attorney and eventually was found guilty of a misdimeanor. Unlawful use of a gun. I had never before had any problems, never arrested. I told the judge that due to the fact that I live alone, in a very rural area that has bear, cougar and other predators, that I really needed my gun and as I live on $700. mo I could not afford to buy another, I could not get my gun back. So..there is really nothing that surprises me as far as losing rights is concerned. God bless that woman and her child. And BTW, I was once advised by the local cops that if I ever had to shoot someone outside, drag their butt in the house before calling them.

reply to post by missingrandkids

Yes, I live in a rural area also up here in wisconsin. You never know whats in your woods or back yard. Especially coyotes, or in the young womans case, a deranged prick. God bless you for at least defending yourself even though you got into trouble.

I'm in Canada... I asked this question to a lawyer he smile and said and I quote "Aim for the head, if he's alive its your word against his..." He's the best lawyer in town I mean I'm not even aware he lost a trial yet, he knows his stuff...

I questioned him and he said you have two choice... In court what matters is not what you know but what you can prove... if he's still alive its your word against his... You have to prove the guy that entered your house or whatever with a knife is the same guy that got in your bedroom, kitchen or whatever. He could say he was a passerby saw someone run out of the house, then heard screaming so he tried to come in to help. If you can't prove the guy that was in your house at the time the cops arrive and the guy that tried to break in your house are the same he will likely walk away...

It only take one savvy/dirty lawyer to bend a law backward and allow him to walk free... Just knowing he could be anywhere out there preying on your kids for revenge... will mess with your head the rest of your days...

We live in a country were someone can trespass on your property to steal your stuff and hide behind your car and get rolled over when you we're trying to take your car out of the garage THEN he can sue you till your last penny for having ran him over on your own property WHILE he was there to steal your s***...

Shoot first ask questions later... Especially when a kid/baby is involved...

I don't own a gun though but I'm a night bird and I have very good night vision, I've got used to talk in pitch black like def people in my house at night primary cuz I couldn't find the switch at first when I moved here and secondary cuz I have one of my friend thats blind and he challenged me to "try to see the world as he does". Then I figured it was the best advantage ever against a thief... they'll never use flashlights anyways... Guess who's lurking in a dark corner with a 25inch aluminum baseball bat...

I got used to it so much I can nearly run from any point A to B anywhere in my house blindfolded, its easier than one would think...

Funny story about the baseball bat though I wanted something short and swift for close combat and a shorter bat offered much more "fighting" advantages in close quarter so I bought this one... When I got to the cash the girl looked at me puzzled and with her "16 years old, little attitude" looks at me with a little grin and she's like don't you think its a bit small???

I spontaneously answered "Ohhhh its not for sport I'm going seal hunting up north" GAWD you should of seen her little attitude change... She almost started crying on the spot...

Originally posted by AwakeinNM

Originally posted by TheMindWar
I live in the UK with probably the toughest gun laws in the world. My problem with our laws is I no longer have the ability to protect myself from criminals.

According to our laws I have the god given right to protect myself using reasonable force, what bloody good is that if my house is burgled by some criminal with a gun?

It should be my right to carry a firearm in my own house for protection against gun toting criminals, only criminals have guns in our country.

And why did you give up your guns? You allowed it, no?

Yes, he personally decried the use of all guns in the UK and enforced the anti-gun laws. Get real. We're just about there if people don't get a clue and get proactive. We just keep giving up our rights little by little, without even knowing it. Each bill that is passed with little hidden agendas.....think about it.