Jesus Christ is the son of the one and only God, our creator.

reply to post by gabby2011

Maybe you need to stay out of threads that glorify the name of Jesus as God..if you feel so strongly about it...because mocking it like a pouting schoolboy is only going to get you replies that end up with you telling others to "sod off".

If it failed..be a grown up and don't even join in on the thread... that has Jesus is Lord as its title.

Wow. vogon needs to "stay out of threads"? Why is that?
I'd say vogon is asking legitimate questions, and here to learn, not to be called a pouting schoolboy....

News flash: all members have access to the forums unless they are post banned or banned altogether. Members who are curious about the thoughts and ideals of others in THIS forum, which is not "THE CHRISTIAN FORUM", but a forum about Religion, Faith, and Theology, have every right to ask questions.. Are people of non-Christian faiths (or no faith) NOT allowed to ask questions?

reply to post by wildtimes


Thank you WildTimes. I understand what you are telling me and I will definitely try to avoid or deflect bad treatment as it comes my way on my quest of learning.

I have sometimes looks outside of my religion for insights into Christianity. I read a pdf about Falun Gong that somebody posted a link to on ATS that gave me some parallel insights into the teachings of Jesus. There were of course significant differences in that faith system that as a Christian I can't accept, it's a bit off topic for me to go into specifics but rest assured they are not in any way from a haughty perspective of me just thinking my religion is better and that's that. I just find that doctrine from Christ has served me well and I can't imagine some of the conflicting Falun Gong precepts advancing me the way Christ's instructions have. But through the similarities in the two faiths, I was able to enhance my understanding of Christ's instruction. Advice to turn the other cheek became more clear to me as a similar command in Falun Gong was explained in detail with many cause and effect examples.

Similarly I've picked up concepts from Islam and Judaism and even some secular philosophies that have greatly enhanced my understanding, thus far, of Christ's teachings and example. There are some marvelous contributors to ATS with intensive grounding in Judaism that have helped my understanding somewhat, given that Christianity arose from Abrahamic roots.

But I do see the merit of Gabby's advice to me to seek within my faith, too. I've gotten some wonderful private advice from caring ATS Christians, and they know who they are, on how to go about that and I will definitely take their kind guidance. I do the best I can on my own but on my own, there is not the opportunity and means for me to do the kinds of action, charitable action, that will give me the kinds of learning opportunities in which to grow and practice my declared faith. I do find myself drawn to opportunities on a couple of local Catholic congregations, so I will look into those. I am not Catholic but my husband and his family are so I have some basic familiarity with their beliefs and requirements. Of course, once bitten, twice shy, I am going to be entering any new fellowships very carefully.

Originally posted by vogon42
reply to post by gabby2011

 

ya now what gabby

To you and jdewey BOTH.......sod off! I'm done trying to make sense of this religion of yours. I can honestly say I gave it another chance......but it failed.

My original experience with YOUR religion, at a very young age was filled with nothing more than Greed, and the "I am better than you" attitude, browbeating, preachers instilling fear......and all stuff that REALLY borderlines child emotional abuse.

25 years later............yes TWENTY FIVE YEARS.....I decided to give it another try. And I see the SAME Results.

You know what......I.m not 9 years old now.

If I ask a question, HOW DARE YOU slap my wrist and call me bad child.

NOTHING has changed, I ask a LOGICAL question any YOU Christians act like I just committed some sin. WHAT is wrong with seeking knowledge???

If yours is the true religion, I would rather burn in hell, than have to put up with such ignorant, egotistical
nonsense

I'm glad hell only exist for your type......because you deserve it.

edit on 6-1-2012 by vogon42 because: (no
reason given)

Hi Vogon, I do understand both yours and Gabby's positions so I will see if I can humbly try to mediate just a wee bit. I had the same dreadful experience as you Vogon, as a child and into my teens. How I got back to a place of faith is a long and complicated story and really one of divine intervention by the Good Shepherd himself. I can only think that even though I said the words of accepting Jesus as my savior and getting baptized without truly understanding what I was doing or why, those seemingly empty actions on my part meant something to God, so the moment in my life I let my bitterness and anger and disappointment in the actions of humans slip, God fetched me back and set me back on the general path. Though I would still continue to sin and make a donkey of myself for years to come, as the years pass, I find myself closer and closer to being a person filled with the ability to better follow Christ's example and also feel when I am going away from what God wants me to be.

You do pose some very good questions, but I recognize in your tone the same anger, and frustration I have felt myself. Anger and impatience are always a barrier to communication no matter what the subject. To Gabby, I would say please do not write Vogon off. Behind the angry or accusatory or skeptical tones of the atheists are some legitimate questions and confusions that even some learned theologians can't agree on. And perhaps, behind some of the most angry of tones, is a heart really yearning to understand. I think even on the cross Jesus himself, as a human brother showing us the way, cried out asking why God had forsaken him. I used to wonder about that but now I know it's as our brother and guiding light for those of us who feel an absence of God and for a moment ask that same question in various ways. If Jesus could express that kind of pain, we have to accept our human brethren feel it, too.

Vogon, God hasn't forsaken you. His people have poorly represented him at times. And as Gabby said with great humility and honesty, even we believers can't answer all the questions. We are not at all the same levels on our path. As you saw I tried getting some answers about the points made about the Evil Bible site. Some I was able to get answered, others I couldn't. I'll keep working at getting my questions answered. I think God does like and welcome questions. I know God loves me and I'm full of pesky questions!

As for reincarnation, I have run into Christians arguing about it and each seems to be able to find scripture that supports their respective positions. I think we have to go with credible evidence and if you find any credible evidence there is such a thing, well, there you go, I guess the side in favor of it has a point. God is way bigger than we can grasp and he has made a complex universe and existence our best minds are still struggling to analyze fully. It really doesn't matter actually. I think it's one of those things we argue about and really should not. Jesus warned us about settling up all those red herring stumbling blocks for ourselves that get in the way of his powerful message of God's love for us.

I don't want to take a position on reincarnation because I may want to support it sometime in the future but not sure yet. If Jesus offers eternal life, then you normally have an explanation that somehow the world ends, all the bad people get killed and then the deserving are resurrected and then their eternal life starts.
The problem is that none of that is really supported by the Bible though you would not know that to listen to all the doom and gloom prophets.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain

To Gabby, I would say please do not write Vogon off.

I would never write him off.. and I included him just now in my prayers of the rosary...as well as all of ATS members.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I don't want to take a position on reincarnation because I may want to support it sometime in the future but not sure yet. If Jesus offers eternal life, then you normally have an explanation that somehow the world ends, all the bad people get killed and then the deserving are resurrected and then their eternal life starts.
The problem is that none of that is really supported by the Bible though you would not know that to listen to all the doom and gloom prophets.

It depends on how you look at reincarnation.... to me its the only logical explanation...

Do you really believe you've only lived one time?.... Humans are a blink in the history of time... Yet our "spirit" is eternal?

Its the only way...

reply to post by gabby2011

Thanks Gabby, that's awesome. I know I can use all the prayers I can get! And I do feel the good will. It is so nice to come here, check the posts and see ones with kind and helpful intentions. Whatever our beliefs we are all human beings making a go of it in a challenging existence. That is our common ground on which we can nurture compassion, empathy and respect, even if we can't always agree on everything or communicate as eloquently and clearly as we would wish.

Vogon, I hope you return to the discussion, with any questions. Goodness knows I am far from able to answer even a fraction of the ones you might have but I find the process of asking can itself be helpful, if only to find sometimes that the answers are already inside of you to begin with.

Okay I realize I'm starting to sound a bit like the sappy middle aged mom I am, so I had best be off to bed! This past week I've been hit with insomnia caused by back spasms and so I've been reading and posting on this forum way past my usual bedtime. My back is healing up and I need to catch up on my sleep.

reply to post by Akragon


I think somehow I once lived in the Outer Hebrides in a stone house with a thatched roof.
Of course I never have as far as I know in this lifetime. I am descended from Norsemen who migrated to the British Isles so I don't know if it is an inherited memory.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

I think somehow I once lived in the Outer Hebrides in a stone house with a thatched roof.
Of course I never have as far as I know in this lifetime. I am descended from Norsemen who migrated to the British Isles so I don't know if it is an inherited memory.

That IS interesting... what makes you think that?

Unfortunatly i have not been blessed with knowledge of my previous lives... I know i've lived before... i feel it down to the essence of my being.

Perhaps i just haven't developed the ability as of yet... I have been lacking in my meditation practices lately...

I was trying to find some resources for Christians to provide some possible scriptural support for the concept of reincarnation, as I do recall some Christians providing some in their debate on the subject. Well I find I don't have time unfortunately do help out much now as I have to be going out soon but I did find this site www.near-death.com... And it talks more about near death revelations but does mention reincarnation. The interesting part about this site, to me, is how it talks about personal revelation in NDE 's being superior to relying on written doctrine alone. I know that will be very offensive to some and I'm probably not expressing it well so I encourage you all to see the site for yourself and see if you find any merit in what they have to say.I think JMDewey, who has had an NDE, will find it of possible worth. I need to go over it myself in more depth. I've not had an NDE as such myself but I've had some profound spiritual experiences and therefore can truly appreciate using personal experience as my guide to illuminate traditional doctrine.

As with all sites, buyer beware. False prophets abound so let the Holy Spirit help you test all things to discern if they are of God or not.

Edit to add that I wish I weren't so rushed for time. I did go back to the site and looked at more pages so must add a warning that this site will offend some Christians as it presents an overall Unitarian Universalist view and will upset some for that reason. I myself can not accept basic UU tenets at present in the least but I am open still to at least reviewing when I have more time, some of the views and insights expressed there.

reply to post by Akragon

... i feel it down to the essence of my being.

Well that's what it is, an emotional sort of bond to something where you feel it when you see it and somehow know that was your former home. It just may be that you have not seen the place where you were previously (of course supposing that there is anything real behind any of this).
Now if Pthena decides to ever come back on this forum, he could tell you about very detailed memories he has (he did get into it a bit on a thread here, where I got the longer version in a telephone conversation with him) but again, he thinks it could be like an instinctual sort of genetic memory of an ancient ancestor.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain

. . . how it talks about personal revelation in NDE 's being superior to relying on written doctrine alone.

In my latest "go to Hell" thread I was talking about what you are calling a NDE and it was started by a poster asking if it would not be better to live your life and enjoy it without worrying about a god, and I said I would have been dead 26 years ago if not for God, so I don't feel like I am missing out on life by believing in God.
Anyway, Here is this experience and it would be a revelation I suppose but sort of limited but in another way it was very revealing in that I learned about a place I would have known nothing about otherwise. It does affect the way I think about things, where I am not in such a hurry to rule things out that don't jive exactly with what I have been taught.
That includes what I have as an opinion of who or what these earth people or whatever, were, who yanked me out of my hospital bed and pulled me through the floor. Being raised a Christian you would naturally think they were Satan's angels or demons but now I think they may have been natural earth spirits, whatever that is, but you know, there are things like that that have been described since the most ancient times and still are held as being real by a lot of people.
One was talking to me the entire time that they were in this experience and they came off as not being at all sympathetic and actually mean spirited where they seemed to hold grudges and actually target specific individuals and they were very eager to take me and could not wait and struck at their earliest opportunity which may have turned out to be a bit premature.

reply to post by TheTruthCqer



reply to post by arpgme 


First off Hell is not for enternity! People have misunderstood that in the bible. 

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

"The wages of sin is death" that is the final punishment of the non elect,death. God is merciful,it is only the cruelness of man that such a creature would want a fellow human to suffer such great agony for ever. 

Remember the rule God set up in the bible when paul was beaten. A person could only receive 40 stripes save one. So 39 stripes(because 40 stripes is almost enough to kill someone) Throughout the bible you will find that when a person suffers it is only for a short while. The two thief's at the cross both suffered for a short while then the one on the left entered death he is non existence no suffering in a place called hell. (In fact the word for hell actually means grave). 

The thief on the right entered into the greatest joy a human can receive he entered into paradise. 


Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee , Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. 



But anyways to the point 

You said that baby could be saved because the can't accept Jesus . Well first off John the baptist was saved in the womb,before he was even conceived. Secondly accepting Jesus doesn't mean anything this is a false teaching. No one accepts Jesus. Jesus accepts you. 

Tts 3:Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 

Everyone is evil there is not one person better than the other I'm just as wicked as Hitler or as Martin Luther king we are all sinners. 

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 

There are many people in the bible who believed on Jesus but were not saved for example judas iscariot is one,Saul believed in God but wasn't saved. There was a great multitude following Jesus that turned away because they loved the things of this world! 

There is a verse that says that says something like this " you believe then you do well. The devils also believe and tremble! So just because you believe doesn't mean your saved. 

So yes hitler COULD have been saved or Could have been unsaved. Only God knows the heart. And to many people this would make them mad that hitler might be saved, but people must remember ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD! 

You are almost right about the last thing you wrote we are not saved by works but by grace that is the Grace of God. But we can't accept Jesus Jesus accepts us. Accepting Jesus is a work. 

Sorry for the long post but I hope this answers some or all of your questions/comments. 

Remember God is a merciful God we always tend to look at all the bad things that happen and say "Gods not merciful) but it's our sin that has caused all the bad in this world. Just look at all the Mercies of God. Start with every single heartbeat. For his mercies are more in number than the sand that is by the seashore or the stars in the heavens!