Bob's Home Video

reply to post by gariac

I see your logic and disagree. So we differ on that point. That's OK, adults don't have to agree. Now stop ducking the questions and points put to you earlier in the thread. Why are you pretending to know what was in the sky before you were there? Why won't you admit that?

MEMBER NOTE: Look how he ducks and tries to avoid what the thread is about. Repeat after me: "There are no non-conventional craft tested EVER, ANYWHERE!" You can trust someone who lies and pretends they know what was in the sky years before they were there... Honestly. :shk:

reply to post by Pimander


If you can't agree with the notion that Bob Lazar is a fraud, there really is little hope for you. I have clearly proven it.

I never ducked your question. I use my baseline knowledge of the range, something you don't have, to understand what Lazar video taped. As such I explained it.

At this very moment, there is a plane on approach to KIAD I haven't been to KIAD in maybe 3 years, but I know it is an active airport. There is always a plane on approach there during regular hours. Amazing, I know what goes on at an airport without being there.

I turn on my light switch, and the light turns on. Hey, I paid the bill. I have knowledge of how the system works. If the light doesn't go on, do I blame space aliens, or do I investigate and see if the bulb is burnt out.

This is all very simple logic.

Now do I believe some intuitively obvious crap from someone I have easily proven to be a fabricator, or do I dismiss what he claims to have seen because I have knowledge of the flight patterns of the base.

Now if one Bob Lazar delivered physical proof, oh say a piece of element 115 for analysis, then I would be proven wrong. Well in TWENTY YEARS Bob had failed to do so.

QED once again.

reply to post by gariac

But you can't have a baseline for what was flying regularly over the range 3 years earlier than you were there. YOU ALSO DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS IN THE SKY 3 YEARS BEFORE YOU WERE THERE EVEN IF YOU DID HAVE A BASELINE. It's such an obvious fact. That you won't admit it looks suspect. If it isn't suspect then you do yourself no favours here in my opinion.

There were witnesses other than Lazar to non-conventional craft. There is one posting on this thread. In fact there were reports of them by employees at Groom Lake as far back as at least 1980 - I have done my homework. That's about 15 years before you were there and 10 years before the Lazar story. If you are telling the truth and there are no non-conventional craft there now then perhaps the are not tested there now.

We get the picture. You utterly refuse to admit an obvious fundamental truth. It's a shame really, if you could debate in a reasonable way this might be productive, as you clearly aren't as stupid as you have made out at times on this thread. I genuinely hope we can move on from this and debate sensibly in future.

My final word on the 115 for now: I know you probably won't agree. That's OK, I can live with that. I'm putting aside my irritation at your refusal to admit the above as this debate is no longer productive - if it ever was. However, this is a logical conclusion

FACT 1: A sample of stable element 115 would not prove the story.
If we had a sample of 115 from Lazar it would have shown the element existed in a stable form like Bob said and that he had some. However it still would not prove all of his story anyway. For example, to confirm the craft existed you would have to confirm that by other means (as some researchers did).

FACT 2: The absence of proof is not proof of anything.
In science this would be, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." In Scottish law this would be a verdict of "Not Proven." He still might have lied and conversely he still might have told the truth. You have no way of being certain whether the element 115 existed in the absence of proof that it did.

FACT 3: If Lazar's element 115 would not prove his case it's absence can't disprove it.
If Lazar producing stable 115 would not prove his case then to say the opposite proves he was lying is illogical. It may make you suspicious but it is not proof by any standard of logic.

If you admit that you just "think" that there were no non-conventional craft but in fact don't know then I will happily retract my statement that you have lied. Otherwise I will let the readers draw their own conclusions.

My thoughts regarding element 115 and how much of it Bob actually had in my opinion could have been just a bluff.

People act like Bob was trying to get famous off of his story but as A51 has stated numerous times, Bob was actually scared for his life and was trying to protect himself.

Most people really tend to forget that!


He may of been trying to scare the government into thinking he had something or (had more) of something that he actually possessed, in this way buying him self time and possibly a bargaining chip to get away with his life.

I think that anyone who had the guts to come out with a story like this must have thought it through, and at least equipped themselves with a "Get out of jail free card"

reply to post by Pimander


That's exactly what Im trying to imply about everything. Just because someone is caught in a lie, doesn't mean all has to be a lie. I could take part in some DUMB operation, talk in public some lies, would people think that the little I told had any truth? No they won't.

Info can be manipulated and maybe lies aren't as comples as thought - maybe they are just true stories mixed with lies so that the whole thing isnt taken seriously

re: Bob's Home Video

This is one item that troubles me about these "saucer tests"/sightings.
Considering Lear indicated in the Meltzer program that they were outside the border, on or near Groom Lake Road, likely at Campfire Hill - I made this diagram to indicate something rising vertically from the runway at Area 51 (blue line) VS the supposed Papoose S-4 site (red line).

Is it reasonable that what they saw was something being tested at Area 51, rather than the supposed S4 site? There would only be few degrees separation in the sky between the two points, and considering this was at night, I doubt they could tell the difference.

My money is on a VTOL UAV, with a bright light attached. Within the realm of possiblity for that timeframe?

reply to post by Mark_Frost


Is is easy to say you are scared for your life. That doesn't prove anything. Hey, Bob Lazar says plenty, but he is a proven fabricator. If Bob Lazar says the moon is made of cheese, am I required to take him at his word.

Now if he actually delivered some element 115, it would have proven the story. But alas, Bob is the guy you find ranting in the subway, but unfortunately was given media access for his rants.

Originally posted by gariac
reply to post by Mark_Frost

 

Is is easy to say you are scared for your life. That doesn't prove anything. Hey, Bob Lazar says plenty, but he is a proven fabricator. If Bob Lazar says the moon is made of cheese, am I required to take him at his word.

Now if he actually delivered some element 115, it would have proven the story. But alas, Bob is the guy you find ranting in the subway, but unfortunately was given media access for his rants.

Maybe i missed something, but how is Bob Lazar a proven fabricator? Link please.

Also, even if it is just a rant(which i do not believe), it is a much more intelligently constructed rant than yours.

Also one helluva lot more interesting. So why do you presume we would rather listen to yours, than this?

Originally posted by Mark_Frost
My thoughts regarding element 115 and how much of it Bob actually had in my opinion could have been just a bluff.

People act like Bob was trying to get famous off of his story but as A51 has stated numerous times, Bob was actually scared for his life and was trying to protect himself.

Most people really tend to forget that!


He may of been trying to scare the government into thinking he had something or (had more) of something that he actually possessed, in this way buying him self time and possibly a bargaining chip to get away with his life.

I think that anyone who had the guts to come out with a story like this must have thought it through, and at least equipped themselves with a "Get out of jail free card"

This is clearly possible. People who try to paint it all as black and white are just part of the smokescreen.

It is also possible that where the "115" came from (which some of these "EXPERTS" still don't know!!!) fooled Lazar. It might have been from where Lazar said but if he was tapped and contacted his source of "115" then the CIA (or whoever) would have known and stepped in. He could have been used in these games as much as any other player could.

It could have been real too. Just because I don't prove something doesn't mean it is untrue.

It's also possible he has allowed the ridicule to stay alive!

reply to post by A51Watcher


He's absolutely right. The best way to insure and assure your sincerity (and life) is risk total obscurity and ridicule.

Sure, that can be a set plan by the PTB but somehow, I doubt it in this case. As we are all aware by now, truth is scary than fiction.

Originally posted by Imtor
That's exactly what Im trying to imply about everything. Just because someone is caught in a lie, doesn't mean all has to be a lie

We can't be certain he lied. Sure, it might look that way but there are other possibilities however unlikely they seem.

reply to post by FosterVS


Since Lazar did his "exploration" (cough cough) from the border, it is a hard place to see much of anything. The only test I saw done by the base from Tikaboo was so low that you would never see it from the ground. [Remember, Groom ops isn't stupid.] They used a solid white light on the plane. This is actually quite common on military aircraft since they often fly at distances where the FAA won't take responsibility for separation. [MARSA is the common term you hear on the scanner.] When I was watching UAV training around the range, they would often use a solid white light. More interesting was the fact they would fly several UAVs at a time, generally 3. Two at one level, the third a bit higher, as if it was flying chase. If you didn't look carefully, it would look like one large aircraft, maybe a mile or two long. The route always skirted Bald Mountain on the north side, then along the ET highway, turned east near Tikaboo, crossed the ET highway, then flew behind the Power Line Overlook towards Mt. Irish.

When I saw a similar Janet landing (light hanging in the sky) that Lazar claimed was a UFO, it was late afternoon and I was on the Power Line Overlook. With daylight, it was easy to see if was a Janet.

Incidentally, Google Earth removed the "google earth community" marker for the Power Line Overlook. This is the only marker I ever saw removed. The area borders a WSA (wildlife study area), so maybe the BLM asked that is be removed to stop people from hanging out there.

FYI
N37.45922 W115.42401
if you want to mark it yourself. You can see the wear and tear on the land.

reply to post by Pimander


Two decades, no element 115 shown. Yeah, he lied.

Originally posted by gariac
Now if he actually delivered some element 115, it would have proven the story.

As I have shown on this thread, that proves NOTHING. I have also shown that you have lied on this site (but the do say it takes one to know one).

Originally posted by Pimander

 

 

FACT 1: A sample of stable element 115 would not prove the story.
If we had a sample of 115 from Lazar it would have shown the element existed in a stable form like Bob said and that he had some. However it still would not prove all of his story anyway. For example, to confirm the craft existed you would have to confirm that by other means (as some researchers did).

FACT 2: The absence of proof is not proof of anything.
In science this would be, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." In Scottish law this would be a verdict of "Not Proven." He still might have lied and conversely he still might have told the truth. You have no way of being certain whether the element 115 existed in the absence of proof that it did.

FACT 3: If Lazar's element 115 would not prove his case it's absence can't disprove it.
If Lazar producing stable 115 would not prove his case then to say the opposite proves he was lying is illogical. It may make you suspicious but it is not proof by any standard of logic.

 

 

If you admit that you just "think" that there were no non-conventional craft but in fact don't know then I will happily retract my statement that you have lied. Otherwise I will let the readers draw their own conclusions.

reply to post by Pimander


I assume that insult was for me. I don't care where Lazar got the element 115. The point is he showed it to George Knapp,. Thus we know he has it under his control. He failed to deliver any for analysis.

Here are the possibilities:
1) What he had wasn't element 115. Rather than be proven to be a liar, he never took it for analysis.
2) He actually had some element 115, but Bob Lazar enjoys being called a liar. Maybe he likes being spanked too.

I think #1 is the more likely case. QED, Lazar is a liar. Thus anything he says is not trustworthy.

Note he can still deliver is element 115 to a lab and thus shut me up.

reply to post by Pimander


If he delivered some element 115, it would prove he wasn't a big time major league liar.

Oh, BTW, I don't give a fig about Scottish law. It is totally irrelevant to the topic.

reply to post by gariac

My impeccable logic does NOT IN ANY WAY depend on the bit about Scottish law. More obfuscation, misdirection and smoke.

On the topic of this discussion, which is the non-conventional craft filmed near Groom Lake, I request your co-operation. I don't recommend any of you take notice of what someone who is happy not to admit making false statements says.

If you admit that you just "think" that there were no non-conventional craft but in fact don't know then I will happily retract my statement that you have lied. Otherwise I will let the readers draw their own conclusions.

reply to post by NeoVain



The fact that Lazar claimed to have some element 115, but never delivered it to a lab, proves he is a liar. It would have cleared his name. The element 115 is the lynchpin. His story is a house of cards, and without delivering element 115, the house has collapsed.

I'll look at the video later, but I don't hold much hope for anything from UFO TV. They clearly have an agenda, and it is ratings, not truth.

reply to post by gariac

It proves nothing as I have shown. Are you trying to pass off your OPINION as TRUTH again. We all heard you. We don't agree. We think you are wrong and just trying to distract from your lie!

Originally posted by gariac
reply to post by NeoVain

 

The fact that Lazar claimed to have some element 115, but never delivered it to a lab, proves he is a liar. It would have cleared his name. The element 115 is the lynchpin. His story is a house of cards, and without delivering element 115, the house has collapsed.

I'll look at the video later, but I don't hold much hope for anything from UFO TV. They clearly have an agenda, and it is ratings, not truth.

You logic is greatly flawed. Lets assume everything he says actually is true. That would mean, by your logic, that since he did not deliver some element 115 to a lab, for whatever reason, then he is still a liar, despite everything he actually said being true.

See the flaws in your logic yet?

There could be dozens of valid reasons for him not delivering it to a lab, your inability to figure them out only proves your lack of intelligence i am afraid. Especially since alot of plausible reasons have already been mentioned earlier in this thread by other posters, which you apparently choose to ignore.

Some of the most logical reasons i can think of just out of the top of my head;

1. He did deliver it, but the lab of course was government monitored and this sample "disappeared".
2. He was afraid of the above scenario happening, and thus choose to not deliver it.
3. He needed the Element 115 as a life insurance, in case of his own demise it would be made public, thus he could ensure his own survival, which would be worth more to him than any lab delivery.
4. He actually did not have any Element 115, he may have just said so in order to scare the government agents off, hoping they would fear he ensured it would go public if he died. In this case he could still be telling the truth of everything else, despite lying of his own possesion of this material.

And this is just basic logic.