Masonic question

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
America (U.S.) had an anti-Mason party at one time. That did not develop in a vacuum.


Yeah? Well Germany had a Nazi party at one time. What, I beg you, is your point? I'm getting tired of seeing you post this ceaslessly.



[edit on 25-9-2004 by JonestownRed]

Originally posted by JonestownRed
I'm getting tired of seeing you post this ceaslessly.

Two options-
1)don't read the posts
2)read what they refer to

That isn't difficult, is it?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Originally posted by JonestownRed
I'm getting tired of seeing you post this ceaslessly.

Two options-
1)don't read the posts
2)read what they refer to

That isn't difficult, is it?

a) This is a forum. Why should people allow you to spread lies without answer?
b) See above. Your posts don't refer to anything other than innuendo and lies.


Throw some substance in there and you might get taken seriously. But the problem is that I seriously doubt that you have one shred of evidence to back up your claims. You are like a gadfly - an annoying biting insect that never does any real damage but is a real pain on a nice summer's day. It's bite is never hard enough to really hurt because it is an insignificant creature, but the world would certainly be better off without it.

Understand that? It isn't difficult is it?

Throw some substance in there and you might get taken seriously. But the problem is that I seriously doubt that you have one shred of evidence to back up your claims. You are like a gadfly - an annoying biting insect that never does any real damage but is a real pain on a nice summer's day. It's bite is never hard enough to really hurt because it is an insignificant creature, but the world would certainly be better off without it.

That's a tad harsh don't you think? If he's such an "insignificant bug", then why is it that you and others seem to come off as threatened?

Because in all my lurking before joining, that's how these responses come off to me. They seem like a response to a threat.

Don't get me wrong, I don't claim masons to be "illuminated evil" personally. But I certainly think that some of your 'brothers' are involved with a globalism-centered agenda, not a lot, not even the majority, but to think that all of you masons are saints of freedom is a tad dilluted imho.


X

Originally posted by Xatnys
masons are saints of freedom

In my extensive study of Freemasonry and its history I have found that in almost every instance and in every country whenever human freedom has been attacked the men of Freemasonry have been present and active in defending freedom. I have also found that whenever tyrannical governments come to power that Freemasons are among the first they wish to round up and imprison.
.

Well believe it all you like, but you're just deluding yourself if that's the case. Every organization has their "minority" that did/does not work for the same goal as the rest of the organization.


I'm sure there has been, are currently, and will be people in Masonry that are involved in "less than honorable" situations and agendas.


That's not to say all masons are bad, just that there are some in your ranks who are opposed to the main focus of freemasonry, which I've gathered is personal liberty and independent thought of every man.

X

Originally posted by Xatnys
Every organization has their "minority" that did/does not work for the same goal as the rest of the organization.

The point of this group of threads is to discuss organizations that are considered "secret societies" rather than individual members which are the exception within a particular organization with the inference that these exceptions impeach the entire organization. I have not seen anyone represent that every initiated Mason is a saint. However it is wrong and dishonest to use a very small minority of individual members to bash all of Masonry.
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Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by Xatnys
masons are saints of freedom

In my extensive study of Freemasonry and its history I have found that in almost every instance and in every country whenever human freedom has been attacked the men of Freemasonry have been present and active in defending freedom. I have also found that whenever tyrannical governments come to power that Freemasons are among the first they wish to round up and imprison.
.

Well thats cheered me up, I either have to get bashing or get bashed ?

Originally posted by billmcelligott
Well thats cheered me up, I either have to get bashing or get bashed ?

Having just submitted my petition this month, I hope that is not the case, as I am not particularly fond of getting bashed or bashing others.
.

You misunderstand what I'm getting at. You want to act like all of group X are saints. I told you that that's fine if you wish to believe that, but every organization, even X has it's rotten apples. So for you to come after me about "I DO actually think that."

Great, go twirl in circles for 30 seconds, then click your heels three times...

You can choose to believe that all of any organization is good and just, but that will never make it true.


Note before all that I had pointed out that I DON'T think Masonry on the whole is an evil secret society. I respect their position and right to keep secrets. I too believe in privacy, which is basically what most of their secretive behavior is about. I also think they have a moral of "Independence, together" where they choose to form bonds, and encourage the development of the individual. I respect that, but I'm not so gullible as to believe that every person from that fraternity is a "noble knight" that wishes to embody masonry.

Maybe you need to re evaluate what your ideals of masonry are before you take the plunge. You come off as "caught in a draft" at the moment.

X

Well thats cheered me up, I either have to get bashing or get bashed ?

See, this guy here is probably one of Masonry's majority. Witty, funny, and good-natured. I respect that.

Leveller, I wished you and df1 (plus a few others) would all get together and make up your minds.

This reminds me of my heavy drinking days-
pick up an old skank in a bar and I never knew if she was going to say �more, more� or �oooh, that's too much.�

That's been many years back but that's how I remember it.

PS Xantys, most masons are like bill- lots of good ones.

Originally posted by Xatnys
You misunderstand what I'm getting at. You want to act like all of group X are saints. I told you that that's fine if you wish to believe that, but every organization, even X has it's rotten apples.

I have not seen any mason claim that all masons are saints. I would agree that the larger an organization, the higher the probability that there are going to be bad apples. However, some organizations are logically going to have more bad apples than others. Are you saying that the masons have a larger percentage of bad apples than humanity in general? If so, why do you think this? If not, then why make an issue out of it?

I have not seen any mason claim that all masons are saints. I would agree that the larger an organization, the higher the probability that there are going to be bad apples. However, some organizations are logically going to have more bad apples than others. Are you saying that the masons have a larger percentage of bad apples than humanity in general? If so, why do you think this? If not, then why make an issue out of it?

Boy, today's special word is "Context" kids! I think you missed the point. Which was not to say that masonry is full of rotten apples or has more of them than lets say the Bohemian Grove, it was to say that EVERY organization(hence the algebraic use of X for any organization) has a subversive element.

It's an issue because many believe that ALL masons are trying to rule the earth. But I'm certain that is not the case. Most masons I've seen don't care about ruling a conversation, much less the earth.

The point is, Freemasonry gets a bad name because of people connecting the whole of masonry with what I'd consider an agenda of a minority of its members, not the agenda of masonry.

I've seen masons(shriners etc) do a lot more to help the world, than control it.

I was making that point, it was the person who initally responded to me that took that point and made the assertation that "I DO believe all masons to be saints", which is poppycock, and so he got another response.

I make no issue of masonry being evil on the whole. I've never seen proof of it. Bad seeds and their deeds can tarnish a reputation, but the masons as a whole do well.

Hope I've made it more clear.

X

PS Xantys, most masons are like bill- lots of good ones.

I agree with ya.

As a Good mason , I have to say I have met some guys in Freemasonry, that I would lay down and die for. Sadly they are no longer with us.

I have also met some I could cheerfully slap all day long.

But in general , I have found Masons to be more genuine and honest than the majority of people I have met outside the Lodge.

You appreciste integrity and fidelity more as you get older, I think. However I do believe , "what you sew so shall ye reap".

Originally posted by df1

Having just submitted my petition this month, I hope that is not the case, as I am not particularly fond of getting bashed or bashing others.
.

You should fit in very nicely then.

I think Masons have to recognise one simple fact.

Just like when you were at shool, and they lined you up and two fit clever dicks, were the captains and they picked their friends and the guys who would bash them if they did not get picked , usually I was the last one.

If you have a club , that to some seems elitist, you have to understand, the others either want to be in your club. Or the club is rubbish anyway, Not worth joining and there must be something wrong with it. Dont know what it is , but if they dont want me then it has to be rotten.

Of course there would be the odd one who like Groucho Marks famous quote:

"I wouldn't want to join a club , that would have ME as a member."

Originally posted by Xatnys
That's a tad harsh don't you think? If he's such an "insignificant bug", then why is it that you and others seem to come off as threatened?

interesting question... and a good one... here is my reasoned answer: I do not feel threatened by gadfly, no one takes him seriously, not even himself, I think... but, rather, when something you honor and enjoy is attacked, defamed, slandered, even by one like the gadfly, you feel it necessary to defend, and, if you have been reading my posts, to ask for some kind of proof or justification for the position(s) he takes.

Because in all my lurking before joining, that's how these responses come off to me. They seem like a response to a threat.

Ok, so, help me then... how would YOU respond to hateful things written about something you love and enjoy? I he were writing of your sister or mother in the same way, would you not leap to their defense? Would you just let his false statements just lie there, in a s steaming and stinking pile without refuting them?

Don't get me wrong, I don't claim masons to be "illuminated evil" personally. But I certainly think that some of your 'brothers' are involved with a globalism-centered agenda, not a lot, not even the majority, but to think that all of you masons are saints of freedom is a tad dilluted imho.

NO ONE has claimed masons are saints, nor that we don't have an occassional bad one. The point however, is manifold: 1) We try to ensure only good men get IN in the first place, 2) We are trying to become better men, and 3) When the RARE bad one shows up, we hold a masonic trial and kick them out.

Now, you assert that you believe: think that some of your 'brothers' are involved with a globalism-centered agenda, not a lot, not even the majority... ok, you believe that... would you mind sharing what basis, fact, etc you have used to COME to that POV? I mean, you have arrived at it by some process... how? Is it just a gut thing?

Hey there billmcelligott,

I understand just what you mean. I too got to see my boyhood days as the last one picked. Heh, just the way the cards fall with cliques I guess.

And you're damn right, that transfers over into "adult society" and I'd say that's where a lot of the masonic fear stems from.

You've got style man, don't change for anyone.

X

Hi there Theron dunn, good to meet ya.

I can follow your desire to protect an order or brotherhood that you honor. I guess I would equate it to someone speaking badly of your mother in gradeschool, and you slugging him across the face. Did it really require that response? Probably not. Were you so protective of your family life that you felt compelled to slug the little arse anyway? Most would say so.

To your second response, I'd have to admit to you sir, I've not had any fraternal ties. I don't know how I'd respond, but if it was an honorable institution that I honored and cherished, I'd probably react the same. I accept the validity of your point.

As to the next part, I'd have to disagree with you respectfully sir. See, the guy I had the initial exchange with is just the type of person that I was talking about. Notice he stated:

Actually I do believe this

quote: Originally posted by Xatnys
masons are saints of freedom

And that's what I was speaking about sir. He's not the first person I've met in my life to hold such lofty/gullible views of an organization. Although judging from the rather professional and kind responses from you actual Masons, I must admit that maybe many of you don't hold such a view at all.

See, I think you can tell by my previous posts that I respect your organization, truly I do. I've talked to several really interesting and passionate masons about your order. One in fact is a "lowly janitor" at my university. Not exactly what you'd think of as a man bent on world domination eh? No, he is certainly not. But he is one of the smartest persons I've ever had the honor of knowing. Materially meager, he holds views on the world and reality that make some of my professors look like lab animals.

That one man, when speaking to me on Masonry, made a point to make it understood that Masons were "living independence", men of independent mind and spirit, that knew they, actually that each man(even if he doesn't know it) is a pillar of his own, capable of standing alone when needed.

That right there is what I'm all about Mr Dunn. Far from gullible, a strong man can stand on his own and know that in himself is the strength needed to carry on. I am a firm believer that what he told me is a fundamental truth that I wish all men realized. Maybe we'd live in a better world eh sir?

Thanks for the response, I appreciate it!


X



[edit on 25-9-2004 by Xatnys]

Now, you assert that you believe: think that some of your 'brothers' are involved with a globalism-centered agenda, not a lot, not even the majority... ok, you believe that... would you mind sharing what basis, fact, etc you have used to COME to that POV? I mean, you have arrived at it by some process... how? Is it just a gut thing?

Respectfully,

I don't mean for it to sound like there's some conspiracy there. I mean that there may be members of your organization that belong to other groups that are aligned with a globalist agenda. You know, that some may be part of the CFR, or Trilateralsts, etc.

The point being that because some in your group hold those views(and the ones that do are probably a severe minority), does not make Masonry aligned with those same views.

See? I'm not saying they're part of some conspiratorial sect hidden in masonry sir. I'm saying that some members are aligned with globalism in general, but that doesn't align masonry as a whole with that same view.

Hope that clears that up.

X

edit: To accuse masonry on the whole for such actions would be akin to calling the pope a "jew" if he was given an honorary title of "Rabbi" by a Rabbinical order.

I'm unsure if that makes any sense, but it was the best one I could come up with.


[edit on 25-9-2004 by Xatnys]

Originally posted by Xatnys
He's not the first person I've met in my life to hold such lofty/gullible views of an organization.

A large part of my attraction to Masonry is that the ideals of the organization are lofty. I freely admit that I aspire to those same lofty ideals. If you believe that is wrong, the problem is yours, not mine.

As to my gullibility, believe what you like.
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[edit on 25-9-2004 by df1]