Undercover police cleared 'to have sex with activists'

people don't have to try very hard to FORCE themselves onto anyone who is drugged.

does that make it ok? oh sure, drugging someone is a crime but isn't it also that they had sex with the person that they would not have had if they were not drugged?

so the outcome might change a bit if he were not being paid to deceive.

not only that but it's almost like prostitution. paying for sex is illegal.

this is job related sex that they are getting paid for because it is instructed and encouraged on the job and is part of job time and job duties.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Is this really much worse than being best man at somebody's wedding, or attending the funeral of someone's mom? Is it really that far of a leap from what cops do every day undercover?

To have it codified like some form of game is disturbing. However, if it came about as part of the progress of a case would it be bad? There is a fuzzy line out there. The guys over in the UK may have got on the wrong side though.

reply to post by Raivan31


Yes Raiv,

Even cops right here in my town rely on crims.

Let's face it - people who become cops nearly went to the other side - then they saw they could have more power.

So cops here are reliant on gangs - and they do that thing.

So, yes I would say all cops are corrupt - and I have witnessed innocent people really suffering. With no comeback.

The good thing is, the people at the top who approved this are emotionless robots. A lot of the cops beneath them are not (as much).

Having sex with the activists runs a very high risk of becoming emotionally attatched (if you're human). A lot of cops could well find themselves not only becoming emotionally attatched to an activist, but also what they support.

Evil always outsmarts itself...

Originally posted by NuclearPaul
Having sex with the activists runs a very high risk of becoming emotionally attatched (if you're human). A lot of cops could well find themselves not only becoming emotionally attatched to an activist, but also what they support.

You raise a very interesting point with this. It could very well run both directions for some cops being the ones who end up compromised. The article had said the practice was common to both male and female officers, so I suppose the situations it led to run the gamut. At least a few would have been changed in their thinking, one would hope.

reply to post by Strype

I wont pretend to know anything about your relationships, but if every single one of them has been riddled with deception, I feel pretty sorry for you.

Thank you for your sympathy. Are you a woman? Have you ever worn lipstick and makeup? Used foundation to cover an outbreak of acne? Pleaded a headache when you didn't feel like sex? Used a vaginal lubricant when you wanted to indulge your partner but didn't feel physically up to it? Faked an orgasm?

Are you a man? Have you never dressed up smart, and stood up a little straighter for your woman? Pretended a nasty injury was 'just a scratch'? Made out your sporting achievements in school, your test marks in class, or the popularity of that band you formed in eleventh grade, to be just a little bit greater than they were? Have you never borrowed money from a friend to take your girlfriend out somewhere nice, or to buy her a birthday gift when you happened to be broke? Had sex with her when she wanted it, and you didn't really feel up to it?

Are you familiar with recent discoveries in evolutionary biology concerning the different, often opposed reproductive strategies and agendas of men and women? Are you so naive that you have reached adulthood without realizing that sexual behaviour is a wonderful game of unconscious mutual deception, and unconscious self-deception, too?

Please do remind me to stay far away from you, and anybody else who views deception so casually. I'd hate to be the person you're befriending for whatever malicious intent you might have.

You don't have to stay away from me. I tend to avoid people who leap to dumb, unwarranted, none-of-their-damn'-business conclusions anyway. And a happy New Year to you, too.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Strype

 

I wont pretend to know anything about your relationships, but if every single one of them has been riddled with deception, I feel pretty sorry for you.

Thank you for your sympathy. Are you a woman? Have you ever worn lipstick and makeup? Used foundation to cover an outbreak of acne? Pleaded a headache when you didn't feel like sex? Used a vaginal lubricant when you wanted to indulge your partner but didn't feel physically up to it? Faked an orgasm?

Are you a man? Have you never dressed up smart, and stood up a little straighter for your woman? Pretended a nasty injury was 'just a scratch'? Made out your sporting achievements in school, your test marks in class, or the popularity of that band you formed in eleventh grade, to be just a little bit greater than they were? Have you never borrowed money from a friend to take your girlfriend out somewhere nice, or to buy her a birthday gift when you happened to be broke? Had sex with her when she wanted it, and you didn't really feel up to it?

Are you familiar with recent discoveries in evolutionary biology concerning the different, often opposed reproductive strategies and agendas of men and women? Are you so naive that you have reached adulthood without realizing that sexual behaviour is a wonderful game of unconscious mutual deception, and unconscious self-deception, too?

Please do remind me to stay far away from you, and anybody else who views deception so casually. I'd hate to be the person you're befriending for whatever malicious intent you might have.

You don't have to stay away from me. I tend to avoid people who leap to dumb, unwarranted, none-of-their-damn'-business conclusions anyway. And a happy New Year to you, too.

edit on 30/12/11 by Astyanax because: why not?

that is never what i imagine what a relationship as being. what if they can read your mind in that moment.

all that unconscious mutual deception gets old after a while, like= as in my teens. that "wonderful' game... is not sexy at all to likes of a person like me. I'm not saying that there are not times when you might just want to keep quiet, but to struggle for honesty, even if it's small honesty is much more appealing of a trait than lying.

reply to post by BlackSatinDancer

that is never what i imagine what a relationship as being. what if they can read your mind in that moment.

Well, obviously they can't. And whatever you imagine a relationship as being, what I wrote is a description of how relationships actually are: all relationships that are valued by the people engaged in them. Believe me, the people who try to get by without these minor deceptions, or who try to be absolutely honest with their partners, are the biggest self-deceivers of all. And, from what I have seen, such people tend to end up having fewer, worse, and shorter-lived relationships.

all that unconscious mutual deception gets old after a while....

It can't get old, because it is unconscious. I'm talking about the fact that the type of man you find attractive changes with the time of the month. I'm talking about evolutionary explanations for why men are always complaining that women cling, and women are forever moaning that men 'lack commitment'. But what I described in my post to Strype was the conscious deceptions we should and do practise on those we love because we care for their feelings and want them to love us in return.

You say

that "wonderful' game... is not sexy at all to likes of a person like me. I'm not saying that there are not times when you might just want to keep quiet, but to struggle for honesty, even if it's small honesty is much more appealing of a trait than lying.

but let me ask: how has refusing to play the game worked for you? What's your track record on relationships? How many? How long did they last? What do your partners really think of you? Are you sure? How have they treated you? Are they as honest as you are?

You don't have to share the answers to these questions with us. Just think about them yourself and see if I am not right. This post may change your life if you respond to it positively.

Back on Topic: I believe it is entirely okay for undercover police to have sex with suspects and really do not see what the fuss is about. They're undercover police, for Pete's sake. What else do you expect them to do?

Now what the "activists" need to do is recruit lots of hookers with STD's to infect the police. I would look for the guys getting laid the most and target them as LEO's. Get rid of em! Guys who cannot keep their dicks in their pants are pretty much a liability to any organization.

In my view sexual acts partaken in with people while you are on an undercover operation should 100% be considered rape and the person doing it charged and sentenced accordingly.

informed consent is the important phrase to remember here i.e.

An informed consent can be said to have been given based upon a clear appreciation and understanding of the facts, implications, and future consequences of an action.

This is clearly not the case when an undercover police officer has sex with someone they are investigating as they are in no way aware of the future consequences of their actions.

Making an analogy like "women wear lipstick and make up to deceive people too" is plainly ridiculous as the implications of having an intimate relationship with someone that has slightly less red lips then you thought is 0 while the consequences of having an intimate relationship with someone who you though was a friend but turned out to be someone whos only reason for having an relationship with you is to gather information from you in order to arrest you and your friends is rather large.

Informed consent

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by BlackSatinDancer

 

that is never what i imagine what a relationship as being. what if they can read your mind in that moment.

rter-lived relationships.

all that unconscious mutual deception gets old after a while....

It can't get old, because it is unconscious. I'm talking about the fact that the type of man you find attractive changes with the time of the month. I'm talking about evolutionary explanations for why men are always complaining that women cling, and women are forever moaning that men 'lack commitment'. But what I described in my post to Strype was the conscious deceptions we should and do practise on those we love because we care for their feelings and want them to love us in return.

You say

that "wonderful' game... is not sexy at all to likes of a person like me. I'm not saying that there are not times when you might just want to keep quiet, but to struggle for honesty, even if it's small honesty is much more appealing of a trait than lying.

but let me ask: how has refusing to play the game worked for you? What's your track record on relationships? How many? How long did they last? What do your partners really think of you? Are you sure? How have they treated you? Are they as honest as you are?

You don't have to share the answers to these questions with us. Just think about them yourself and see if I am not right. This post may change your life if you respond to it positively.

Back on Topic: I believe it is entirely okay for undercover police to have sex with suspects and really do not see what the fuss is about. They're undercover police, for Pete's sake. What else do you expect them to do?

edit on 31/12/11 by Astyanax because: of undercover agents trying to seduce me. With nightsticks.

I'll be happy to share my answers. i think the majority of them were scum that i could see right through... and they annoyed me greatly by being such liars and not even realizing their own compulsive lying problem that i left most of them pretty damn quick and didn't look back. How do they usually tend to feel about me... well, they usually tried to outsmart me because they felt that eventually they would get dumped but it's because of what they knew of themselves on the INSIDE... so they would try to outsmart and in the end, wind up being the one who feels like they lost something. and then I would be left to try to convince myself that not all are so stupid, because the thing is.... it's not unconscious to all. i get sick even watching the stupid half ass provocative games of others... i can't even stomach it hardly so i'm not sure why you think everyone operates that way... because they DON'T.

I honestly feel that if i can be with the one soon who i believe cares about and watches over me, that he is not nearly as stupid and when we do communicate in the manner that we can, thoughts and feeling tend to get very raw and exposed at times. the funny thing is, people will often lie and try to cover up things in their personalities that they aren't even freaking responsible for. half the # doesn't even need to be lied about because it had no basis in the first place. that is part of the problem. people will jump to a lie because of their insecure egos but if they would just stop for a second and give it some thought, they might find that a lot of this need absolves itself.

you are valid in life so why would you constantly have to prove it? same reason people fall into traps like that in society. because everything is telling them to constantly validate their existence... to the point where it comes so ingrained, they will walk on the heads of others to validate themselves.... but you can't validate your life that way.... not in the eyes of god in my opinion.

you let that energy absolve and just be what you are, it resolves itself. to constantly try to control what the other feels by propping up a facade is not where true greatness comes from. when you MAKE yourself stop trying to control the feelings of another by dishonest means, then you can finally concentrate on yourself and just doing things that you feel are right but for the right reasons... and that is when you get truly respected.

if you just play the game, it only works with other liars... and i do not doubt for one second that many are like this and this has given you the impression that all is like this, but it isn't. I don't prop up relationships that way and yes that separates me from many liars who still beg for more and beg for more they do because they know I'm real. I'm a real damn person through and through and i think, honestly, it scares them. they can't live with themselves so easy.

but yes, mindreading DOES happen. Don't kid yourself.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


This only cements the notion that a large segment of city cops(and certainly and overwhelming majority of undercover cops) are psychopaths.

Only a psychopath/sociopath could engage in sex in such a manner. Frankly it may not be rape, but it is an immoral act of fraud.

And any who thinks deception has a place in sex, probably thinks alcohol is the best sex facilitator ever created, along side flunitrazepam.

reply to post by davespanners

In my view sexual acts partaken in with people while you are on an undercover operation should 100% be considered rape... informed consent is the important phrase to remember here.

Poor James Bond.

If informed consent is the issue, the vast majority of casual sexual encounters would qualify as rape. Many of us have slept with people we knew next to nothing about, and who in turn were equally ignorant of us. Do we have to exchange CV’s before kissing? Come on.

Making an analogy like "women wear lipstick and make up to deceive people too" is plainly ridiculous as the implications of having an intimate relationship with someone that has slightly less red lips then you thought is 0 while the consequences of having an intimate relationship with someone who you though was a friend but turned out to be someone whose only reason for having an relationship with you is to gather information from you in order to arrest you and your friends is rather large.

Yes, the difference is large. I was using trivial examples because an unpleasant and offensive person on this thread chose to cast aspersions on my character based on general remarks I had made earlier about relationships and deceit.

I will spare myself the labour of offering more sophisticated examples. Any adult can supply his or her own from memory's store. Anyone who believes two people can live with one another through years of ups and downs without deliberately hiding information from each other is naive indeed, and their relationships will be correspondingly nasty, brutish and short.

Of course the parameters of a genuinely affectionate sexual relationship are different from those of a relationship embarked upon for an ulterior motive, whatever the motive might be. Many people marry for wealth or security rather than for love, and never let their partners know it; is this rape, Dave? People in traditional societies like mine often enter arranged marriages; these are not forced marriages – the free consent of both parties is a legal requirement – yet many marriages are still contracted for reasons to do with family property or business mergers. Society and the need to live peaceably together demands that the partners make a pretence of affection for each other even if their are just marrying in obedience to parental instruction. Are these marriages rape?

And what about the starlet who takes the casting-couch route to fame and fortune? Is she being raped, Dave, or is it the movie executive or director who beds her the rapee? Not all such arrangments are strictly business, you know; one or the other party may think the affection is genuine. Let us not forget the important matter of self-deception, without which no sexual relationship is complete.

Finally, here's something for all of you crying 'rape' to consider; whether it will change your views or not I cannot say, but for some of you it may be relevant. I imagine you reading the OP and visualizing evilly handsome men in fedoras seducing intense-looking, high-cheekboned girl anarchists and encouraging them to rat on their co-conspirators. Well, the truth is more likely to be the other way round. The undercover agent in most cases is probably female, while the activist she sleeps with is male. Have you never heard of a honey-trap? They are very common in the spy business.

Still rape, Dave?

reply to post by BlackSatinDancer

I wish you hadn't answered so specifically. I will limit my comments on your post to the observation that what you have written is exactly what I expected of your personal life, going by your earlier comments on the thread.

My own personal life has been very different. My former partners and I remain linked by close ties of mutual affection. I hope reading my posts in this thread makes you think again about what you expect from and how you handle your relationships, and that you will find the happiness you seek some day.

reply to post by Astyanax


So when something happens to a male it holds less value? Fraud is fraud no matter how you try to dice it. I concede, it isn't rape, but it is emotional abuse. As the policy will cause a great deal of emotional harm.

And what if a deceived, emotionally abused person commits suicide because of the sheer level of shame and grief they feel?

Add in the fact that you can't give a solid example of what you mean by deception in relationships, leads me to think what truth could cause a relationship to end in a very, very bad way.

Or as you put it:

Astyanax
Anyone who believes two people can live with one another through years of ups and downs without deliberately hiding information from each other is naive indeed, and their relationships will be correspondingly nasty, brutish and short.

Adultery. That is really the only thing that could cause a relationship to end in a nasty and brutish manner. Now if a person is a sex addict that is constantly cheating then all their relationships would be similar(and short). That or some other serious problem like gambling and drug abuse, but that usually only becomes a problem in long term relationships.

+ add in this whole deal of "self deception", the only time you would have to deceive yourself, is if your chasing after hot gal's who are only interesting in a sugga daddy type.

I think my first opinion was correct, rude, but correct.

The only question is, how the heck do we get rid of all the sociopaths and psychopaths that make up the various police forces. DNA testing and brain imaging test's are still half a decade away(yes, in theory they discovered way of detecting who has the sociopath/psychopath dna, and who has a sociopathic and psychopathic brain, but still more work needs to be done to make it as error free as possible).

reply to post by davespanners


Well I guess that makes 90% of one night stands rape too, right?

Interesting quotes here by the cop...

‘I knew I had crossed the line by having sex with the people I was infiltrating but I felt I had little choice. One activist told me, “If a man doesn’t respond to sexual overtures, then it is likely he’s a cop or informant.” ’

He says the louche lifestyle promoted casual sex. ‘No one worked, so there was a party lifestyle, filled with drink and drugs like ecstasy, ketamine and marijuana,’ he says.
‘It was not unusual to have 100 to 150 people passing through a party lasting two or three days. There would always be a big bowl of condoms on the bar. They were vegan ones because regular condoms can contain animal by-products.’

Kennedy says that the sex-filled parties often had a theme. ‘At one party, called M&S / S&M, you had to wear something from Marks & Spencer with a sadomasochistic theme – the women were wearing cardigans with their breasts hanging out. At another, called the Queer Option, everyone cross-dressed – it was a case of anything goes.

L INK

reply to post by Chadwickus

Hmm. I was at a party like that less than 48 hours ago. I wonder if I've been infiltrated?

Legal prostitution!
Getting paid to have sex=prostitution.

Sex as part of job duties? prostitution.

I saw where the UK wanted to hire only cops with lower IQs, so now they want Hookers too?
WTF?

Party in the UK!!!

reply to post by korathin

Oh, all right, then. I wasn't going to answer this and just receive more abuse for sharing my understanding with others, but what the hell. I'm a big boy, and I can handle a few more hateful, thoughtless accusations from small-minded people. I am not referring to you, but to some of the others who have attacked me in this thread.

So when something happens to a male it holds less value?

No indeed, but it strikes me that some of the participants on this thread feel that way. It was to them I addressed my words – as I mentioned earlier.

And what if a deceived, emotionally abused person commits suicide because of the sheer level of shame and grief they feel?

In general, one person cannot be held responsible for another's actions, suicide included. Only if a person is trapped and powerless in a hopeless situation and commits suicide to escape it can those holding the person in that situation be held responsible. Anyone who freely commits suicide out of shame and grief is entirely responsible for their own death. This is simple common sense; it is also common law.

Add in the fact that you can't give a solid example of what you mean by deception in relationships, leads me to think what truth could cause a relationship to end in a very, very bad way.

If you had read what I posted earlier with more care, you would have understood that I spoke of two kinds of deception. First, the little deceptions that couples (as well as friends, colleagues and associates) practise upon each other every day. I understand that many ATS members are unworldly and socially maladroit, but surely everyone understands these common deceptions: agreeing with someone for the sake of peace, pretending to like some dish because another person has gone to some trouble to cook it for you, complimenting an incompetent versifier on his poetry, etc.

I was speaking, then, of minor, gentle, indeed loving deceptions. In some cases, though, there is a more serious need for deception. You mentioned adultery, but in a way that shows you haven't thought very hard about it. Consider that many couples must endure long separations from each other: sailors, oil-rig workers, migrant labourers, military personnel posted abroad and many others are obliged to spend long periods separated from their spouses. Now everyone is human, and sex is a fierce drive; sometimes, adultery is inevitable. Both partners may know or suspect what the other is doing; yet the matter is never mentioned, and the pretence of fidelity, necessary for the preservation of a marriage valued by both, is maintained.

On New Year's Day I had dinner with one such couple and their teenage children. The parents are both close friends of mine and have been good enough to confide in me regularly over the years. The wife lives in Australia, where she works for a large multinational firm. The children live there, too. The husband lives in my country. He is a serial adulterer; in fact, his achievements in this department are little short of prodigious. The wife is more career-minded, and comes from a very conservative family. She is aware of her husband's adulteries; I know this because she has told me, and it is one of the reasons they live apart. Yet she loves him, and he loves her; after more than twenty years, it is still magic to watch them together. Also, they are both fiercely loving and proud of their children. In other words, despite the husband's constant, serial infidelity, they are a happy family and are highly motivated to stay together. The husband keeps his end of the bargain by keeping his amours out of sight; the wife helps the deception along by living abroad. It helps that her career demands residence overseas.

The other sort of deception I spoke of was the unconscious, instinctive type, the type we never know we practise. Essentially, we advertise ourselves in the sex market. Some of the advertisements are honest, some are dishonest. I'm getting a bit tired of writing this post now and have many other things to do today, but if you're really interested I suggest you read The Mating Mind by an evolutionary biologist named Geoffrey Miller. You'll find plenty of examples of what I mean in there.

If you don't believe in evolution, kindly don't trouble yourself to tell me so. How you take what I have written here is entirely your own affair.