believers in jesus...please explain this..

reply to post by FugitiveSoul

. . . "Lucifer" was in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah . . .
What's a latin name doing in an ancient Hebrew text?

It's not.
It's in the Latin translation of the Hebrew text.

reply to post by WarminIndy

There are multiple characters that resemble others from mythology appearing all over the world. Take Micha'el for instance, who also appears in Mayan stories as well as Irish, Sumerian, and even Asian cultures in various forms.
Though there are many characters that resemble "Christ", it doesn't mean that the person/being they were referring to was Christ, just as there is no proof that Christ during his alleged time was the Christ [one and only] of his time. Hard to explain, but with the parallels to older mythological beings, it's easy to imagine that Jesus himself was just another, albeit more modern, incarnation of an older belief. Not a real being/person, but a reboot if I may use Hollywood terms.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The scholars who, authorized by King James I, translated the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place.

A mistranslation of an already existing Roman name led to the birth of "Lucifer."

reply to post by HeavenWolf

Actually, consider this.. Jesus died on the cross for the atonement of the worlds sins..

You may believe this personally but it is not something in the Bible.
The closest thing to saying something like this would be 1 John 2:2, which says that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world.
The explanation for this phrase comes right before this, in the second part of verse one,

. . . But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One . . .

so it is Jesus' righteousness that brings us closer to God.

My objection being centered on this belief some people have that Jesus died to pay a penalty owed to something, such as a (secret?) contract between people and some unknown entity that demands payment in blood for sins.

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

In the original tale, the first appearance of "Lucifer" was in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Well you can call it by whatever name you want.. Lucifer, Lilith, Satan, Azazel. But look, The lament of Tyre, In proverbs, and the account of Job. All these things tell or give insight that the evil one, was actually once a person of authority in the heavenly kingdom. But upon closer inspection you can see that Jesus was there since the formation of the earth, Early rebbe relayed the story, that one day the rebellious one came into the kingdom and asked " What is this light that is under your throne? Why are you hiding it from me?" G-d then responds " This light is the salvation of my creation, and it will bruise your head." Sorry I am paraphrasing.. but you can see this in Breisheet (Genesis) that G-d stood upon the waters, and separated day from night (clean from unclean, sin from salvation) and seen that it was good. So in reality, Both Rebelliousness and Salvation existed from the begginning.

PS.

Also note that in the account of Job, look at the relationship between the adversary and G-d. G-d asks, where have you been? Adversary responds "walking through the earth to and fro.." interesting.. just becareful not to slander names whether you consider good or evil. there is a reason why the Arch Angel Michael did not slander the adversary while standing over the body of Moses.

Hope you guys find what I said somewhat informative, or atleast thought provoking...

anyway

Peace

reply to post by WarminIndy

I love Chuck Missler, he is one of the most intelligent people I have heard. I love to visit his website.

I think he is mentally and morally defective and avoid him like the plague and feel sorry for anyone duped by this con-artist.

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

The scholars who, authorized by King James I, translated the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place.

A mistranslation of an already existing Roman name led to the birth of "Lucifer."

The point being, other than in the King James, the name, Lucifer does not appear in English Bibles.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Actually if you read the bible, and get some good oral commentary (from a non christian teacher), you will understand that there has been a blood oath for a long time. And it was the people who cut their offerings IE sheep, .. So yes, it was a blood offering on the cross, but you must also realize that when the time comes there are some sins that are not acceptable to just beg for salvation. When there is an alter and temple in place, you will have to again sacrifice for certain sins.

You can shoot wholes in the bible, and even Torah without commentary from the beginning. Perhaps a good place for you to start is with RAMBAM, who also believed Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah. Same with King David, he believed and also asked for forgiveness, but also for some sins he had to atone for himself.

reply to post by HeavenWolf


Yes. All Christian ideas from a religion obsessed with scaring its followers into servitude. Another reason why I follow paganistic/scientific traditions. I do appreciate your input, but I don't buy into the God/Devil battle over souls. If anything, God and the Devil would have to be one in the same; two sides of the yin yang, reflections in a mirror. Perspective. One man's heaven is another's hell.
Thanks for your input.

non-believers in jesus ......let me ask you this........was jesus a real person or a fairytale?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Kinda like the word "hell" which only appears in versions of the English translated New Testament, and not at all in the original versions or the OT. Jesus warned the Jews many times of impending destruction, both nationally and individually, but rarely did he speak of "hell" and when he did we must use the original meaning of the word, which meant "grave."
More propaganda to scare the populous into falling in line.

reply to post by FugitiveSoul


Its cool you we are all given free will to believe or not, so its all good. I am not sure I would say battling over souls would be accurate. I think we are born to heal our spirit and advance it as much as we can, until the next phase the creator has for us. I find it hilarious that most christians on ats, specifically jmdewey always tries to refute what I am saying, they always feel they get it, but in reality they get nothing. They are totally divorced idolaters (not all Christians are this way), who worship something totally different then what their supposed to.

Anyway Fugitive Soul, we all have our own paths, just keep looking inward, and you will go the way your supposed to.

reply to post by HeavenWolf


Peace be with you.

In the old testament(before Jesus) they were given the choice of offering sacrifices to cover their sins. Upon death they went to a place known as Abraham's bosom until Jesus came and died, then they were recieved into heaven with others who were born again.

reply to post by todieisgain


Before Jesus?! They where given a choice?! Ha Ha idk about that.. They where presented with ways that where acceptable to atone for sins. Animal sacrifice is just one way.. You could also present flour, and other materials as well. Think about this, Before Jesus there was the Torah yes!? So what word is made flesh!? THE NT!? BWAHA there is no new testiment, this is a realization of what G-d promised Abraham. Jesus is the Torah made flesh!

Originally posted by todieisgain
In the old testament(before Jesus) they were given the choice of offering sacrifices to cover their sins. Upon death they went to a place known as Abraham's bosom until Jesus came and died, then they were recieved into heaven with others who were born again.

Correct, before Calvary the blood of animals only covered sins. Atonement for sin happened at Calvary. After that all righteous men and women go to heaven when they die instead of "Abraham's Bosom" which was freed when Christ resurrected.

reply to post by HeavenWolf

Well you can call it by whatever name you want.. Lucifer, Lilith, Satan, Azazel. But look, The lament of Tyre . . .

The King of Tyre was being compared to Adam, in Ezekiel 28:12-13

You were the sealer of perfection,
full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God.

not Satan.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeavenWolf

 

Well you can call it by whatever name you want.. Lucifer, Lilith, Satan, Azazel. But look, The lament of Tyre . . .

The King of Tyre was being compared to Adam, in Ezekiel 28:12-13

You were the sealer of perfection,
full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God.

not Satan.

What?? Ezekiel was prophesying to the demonic powers behind the throne of Tyre. Adam was never perfect in beauty, he was never full of wisdom either. It's addressing Lucifer. Heck, Adam wasn't even created in the garden, he was placed in the garden by God after he was formed from the dust of the Earth to work and to keep the garden.

reply to post by HeavenWolf

. . . you will understand that there has been a blood oath for a long time.

Like I said, there is apparently this secret contract made with some unknown entity which demands blood as a payment and God was unable to avoid it so gave his son to bleed to satisfy this nebulous thing that only initiates into the mystery know about.
Which means it is not something I can believe in, sorry and no amount of Kabbalah mystics can convince me otherwise.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeavenWolf

 

Well you can call it by whatever name you want.. Lucifer, Lilith, Satan, Azazel. But look, The lament of Tyre . . .

The King of Tyre was being compared to Adam, in Ezekiel 28:12-13

You were the sealer of perfection,
full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God.

not Satan.

What?? Ezekiel was prophesying to the demonic powers behind the throne of Tyre. Adam was never perfect in beauty, he was never full of wisdom either. It's addressing Lucifer. Heck, Adam wasn't even created in the garden, he was placed in the garden by God after he was formed from the dust of the Earth to work and to keep the garden.

So he was made to be a slave? and eve freed him by eating the apple?.....Good on Eve
So all that about Satan giving us the chance of original thought is true? Well played Satan S&F for satan