A question about 9/11 Truth ?

Originally posted by snowcrash911

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
As for the reasons for the attack, even Lee Hamilton (the 9/11 commission chair) said he never found a concrete reason for why the hijackers did it

That's a lie. You are lying, and Lee Hamilton is lying. Let's look at this 9/11 debunker video from Youtube user "RepresentativePress".

Excuse me, Mr. conspiracy theorist but an intelligence expert giving testimony on what he BELIEVES was the motivation behind the attack isn't documenting the reason behind the attack. Atta left no "why I did this" testimony behind so all anyone can do is speculate. Theorizing "Atta was just a mindless Al Qaida groupie following whatever Khalid sheikh Mohammed told him to do" is equally a possibility as "Mohammed atta wanted to strike back at the US for their support for Israel" just as "Mohammed Atta was a sociopath who simply wanted to hurt people". and even "They attacked us because they hate our freedoms" is.

Besides, I didn't make the claim up that he couldn't find any verifiable answer as to why Atta did it. I got that from an interview he gave as an answer for whether he had any regrets about the results of the 9/11 commission report.

Wow... so I guess Atta was simply trying to radically redecorate the World Trade Center. I get it now.

Who's hiding inconvenient facts?

You are, actually. Where in any of these video clips does it say why Atta targetted the World Trade Center, specifically? Hamilton said he never found out, and I posted an educated guess which I openly admitted was an educated guess. I presume you have an alternative to offer that's more intellectually honest than "Silverstein wanted to collect on the insurance money"?

reply to post by hooper

Nope. 9/11 was caused by homicidal maniacs possibly motivated by religious hatred. No matter what form US foreign policy took, there was nothing in it to "cause" 19 men to hijack four airplanes and kill thousands of innocents. They did it of their own free will. At any point they could have stopped.

Sure, homicidal maniacs with a religious zeal for money.

“This report contends that not only were the buildings targets, but that specific offices within each building were the designated targets. These offices unknowingly held information which if exposed, subsequently would expose a national security secret of unimaginable magnitude. Protecting that secret was the motivation for the September 11th attacks. This report is about that national security secret: its origins and impact. The intent of the report is to provide a context for understanding the events of September 11th rather than to define exactly what happened that day. Initially, it is difficult to see a pattern to the destruction of September 11th other than the total destruction of the World Trade Center, a segment of the Pentagon, four commercial aircraft and the loss of 2,993 lives. However, if the perceived objective of the attack is re-defined from its commonly suggested ‘symbolic’ designation as either ‘a terrorist attack’ or a ‘new Pearl Harbor,’ and one begins by looking at it as purely a crime with specific objectives (as opposed to a political action), there is a compelling logic to the pattern of destruction. This article provides research into the early claims by Dick Eastman, Tom Flocco, V.K. Durham and Karl Schwarz that the September 11th attacks were meant as a cover-up for financial crimes being investigated by the Office of Naval Intelligence(ONI), whose offices in the Pentagon were destroyed on September 11th.

After six years of research, this report presents corroborating evidence which supports their claims, and proposes a new rationale for the September 11th attacks. In doing so, many of the anomalies – or inconvenient facts surrounding this event - take on a meaning that is consistent with the claims of Eastman et al. The hypothesis of this report is: the attacks of September 11th were intended to cover-up the clearing of $240 billion dollars in securities covertly created in September 1991 to fund a covert economic war against the Soviet Union, during which ‘unknown’ western investors bought up much of the Soviet industry, with a focus on oil and gas. The attacks of September 11th also served to derail multiple Federal investigations away from crimes associated with the 1991 covert operation. In doing so, the attacks were justified under the cardinal rule of intelligence: “protect your resources” and consistent with a modus operandi of sacrificing lives for a greater cause. The case for detailed targeting of the attacks begins with analysis of the attack on the Pentagon. After one concludes that the targeting of the ONI office in the Pentagon was not random – and that information is presented later. – one then must ask: is it possible that the planes that hit the World Trade Center, and the bombs reported by various witnesses to have been set off inside the buildings 1, 6 and 7 and the basement of the Towers, were deliberately located to support the execution of a crime of mind-boggling proportions? In considering that question, a pattern emerges. For the crimes alleged by Eastman, Flocco, Durham and Schwarz to be successful, the vault in the basement of the World Trade Center, and its contents - less than a billion in gold, but hundreds of billions of dollars of government securities - had to be destroyed. A critical mass of brokers from the major government security brokerages in the Twin Towers had to be eliminated to create chaos in the government securities market. A situation needed to be created wherein $240 billion dollars of covert securities could be electronically “cleared” without anyone asking questions- which happened when the Federal Reserve declared an emergency and invoked its“ emergency powers.” that very afternoon.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by snowcrash911

 

I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the ignorance and deliberate denial on the part of you and your idiotic government in motivating terrorist attacks through a catastrophic and unsustainable foreign policy.

I take it by your grammar that you're not an American.

By all means, point out the errors in my grammar. Where are they?

I think it was an inside scam to engage the oil enriched countries in war.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Excuse me, Mr. conspiracy theorist but an intelligence expert giving testimony on what he BELIEVES was the motivation behind the attack isn't documenting the reason behind the attack.

Oh, I get it. When experts, whose opinion shapes (or ought to shape) the opinion of the 9/11 Commission, share their expert, fact-based knowledge with a stooge like Lee Hamilton, you and Lee get to disregard their information because you lie that the expert's (consensus-based) assessment is only a "belief".

These are experts, who present FACTS. You and Lee are lying.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Atta left no "why I did this" testimony behind so all anyone can do is speculate. Theorizing "Atta was just a mindless Al Qaida groupie following whatever Khalid sheikh Mohammed told him to do" is equally a possibility as "Mohammed atta wanted to strike back at the US for their support for Israel" just as "Mohammed Atta was a sociopath who simply wanted to hurt people". and even "They attacked us because they hate our freedoms" is.

False. Much is known about Atta's disdain for American cultural imperialism, American support for Muburak's brutal, economically stagnant puppet regime as well as the nature of the academic climate in which he immersed himself in Cairo from 1985 onwards.

Atta blamed the social problems and corruption in Egypt on American influence over the Cairene elite. His friends remember him more angered by political issues than captivated by religious fervor.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Besides, I didn't make the claim up that he couldn't find any verifiable answer as to why Atta did it. I got that from an interview he gave as an answer for whether he had any regrets about the results of the 9/11 commission report.

Why don't you source me then, so I can use that source to show the world that Lee Hamilton is a liar. One more nail in the man's coffin. He recently said it was earthquake like shocks which brought down WTC 7. Quite the idiot and the liar, Lee. He should have deferred to NIST instead of making shit up.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
You are, actually. Where in any of these video clips does it say why Atta targetted the World Trade Center, specifically? Hamilton said he never found out, and I posted an educated guess which I openly admitted was an educated guess. I presume you have an alternative to offer that's more intellectually honest than "Silverstein wanted to collect on the insurance money"?

I hope you have something else up your sleeve but straw man non-arguments? This discussion wasn't about Silverstein. Moreover, I linked to two Youtube videos on the first page, I suggest you get your head out of the sand and give them a looksee. You have probably read only a negligible amount on islamic terrorism, let alone on 9/11.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by snowcrash911

 

You want motivation? I can just as easily suggest that the true motivation was to promote Islamic world domination by creating an event that would place the Muslim world population in a position that would force them to choose sides in an Armageddon like battle between the Christian west and the Islamic east.

These are the words of men who know they are going to sacrifice their lives. They explain why, chastise the United States and its foreign policy, mention Israel and Palestine and quote the qur'an.

9/11 martyr video of Walid al-Shehri

9/11 martyr video of Abdulaziz al-Omari

9/11 martyr video of Saeed al-Ghamdi

9/11 martyr video of Ahmed al-Ghamdi

Open your eyes. You and the 9/11 Commission stooges can't stop these facts from coming to light.

Originally posted by snowcrash911

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by snowcrash911

 

I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the ignorance and deliberate denial on the part of you and your idiotic government in motivating terrorist attacks through a catastrophic and unsustainable foreign policy.

I take it by your grammar that you're not an American.

By all means, point out the errors in my grammar. Where are they?

I didn't mean errors, I was refering to your word usage. As when you refer to the US government as "your" government. From that I assume that you are not an American and you assume I am.

reply to post by mikejohnson2006

if you watch the tape that bin laden supposedly released (actually it was found in a random house) he talks about the twin tower attack. specifically the jet fuel melting steel. yes, he literally says that the jet fuel melted the steel as he expected.

jet fuel cannot melt steel, and i would trust a real terrorist to know that.

reply to post by snowcrash911

Open your eyes. You and the 9/11 Commission stooges can't stop these facts from coming to light.

The only fact that is coming to light is that it is going on 11 years now and this obsession with conspiracy theories is going nowhere. You say I can't stop these "facts" from coming to light - yet here you present information you googled on the internet so I don't really see anyone trying to stop it. The information is out there and no one is buying it. The hijackers and their operators were homicidal maniacs and thats what people take away from all your "information".

Originally posted by hooper
The only fact that is coming to light is that it is going on 11 years now and this obsession with conspiracy theories is going nowhere.

Who's talking about conspiracy theories? You are. I deal with facts - facts you are unable to refute. I don't hear you moaning about "conspiracy theories" when rightist politicians fling them around like it's nothing. The "socialist takeover" conspiracy theory for example. Or the ubiquitous "global warming hoax" conspiracy theory.

Originally posted by hooper
You say I can't stop these "facts" from coming to light - yet here you present information you googled on the internet so I don't really see anyone trying to stop it.

And here you are, on a conspiracy forum accusing someone of *gasp* using Google, without evidence. I study Al Qaeda in depth, you don't, you just parrot the party line because it gives you a kick. Gung-ho!

Originally posted by hooper
The information is out there and no one is buying it. The hijackers and their operators were homicidal maniacs and thats what people take away from all your "information".

The martyr videos above lay out a clear motive for the 9/11 hijackers - your government's idiotic foreign policy. Since it involves the Israel-Palestine issue, neither you nor pitiful stooge Lee Hamilton want to acknowledge that inconvenient truth, even though Hamilton was informed by his own experts this was the case.

There is a spectrum between conspiratorial paranoia and gullible ignorance, you choose the latter and satisfyingly wring your hands knowing your obsequious subservience to mainstream opinion puts you in a political zone of safety, while your country is crumbling under the tyranny of the "global war on terror".

More freedom has been taken away from the American people by their own leaders than Osama Bin Laden could have achieved in his wildest dreams - and here you are, firmly stuck with your head in the sand.

Ignorance is no virtue, hooper, and denial is not a river in Egypt.

reply to post by snowcrash911

The martyr videos above lay out a clear motive for the 9/11 hijackers - your government's idiotic foreign policy.

Nope, just the twisted rational laid out by homicidal maniacs in one last gasp of a chance to blame the victims. Nobody buys this crap.

Since it involves the Israel-Palestine issue, neither you nor pitiful stooge Lee Hamilton want to acknowledge that inconvenient truth, even though Hamilton was informed by his own experts this was the case.

Actually Lee is no longer my stooge, he's retired. What no one wants to do is give these creeps (the hijackers and their supervisors) a public forum for thier bile. You are free to suck up the garbage in these videos to your heart's content but I don't care what they say.

There is a spectrum between conspiratorial paranoia and gullible ignorance, you choose the latter and satisfyingly wring your hands knowing your obsequious subservience to mainstream opinion puts you in a political zone of safety, while your country is crumbling under the tyranny of the "global war on terror".

Gullible? You're the one who is arguing that these Muslim Ted Bundy's have a good cause.

More freedom has been taken away from the American people by their own leaders than Osama Bin Laden could have achieved in his wildest dreams - and here you are, firmly stuck with your head in the sand.

And which freedoms would those be? Freedom to speak my mind? Still intact. Religion? Intact. etc. Its all good here. I think you're just jealous.

Ignorance is no virtue, hooper, and denial is not a river in Egypt.

Yep, I'm ignorant and in denial but you're the one defending murderers.

Originally posted by hooper
Nope, just the twisted rational laid out by homicidal maniacs in one last gasp of a chance to blame the victims. Nobody buys this crap.

What, you mean yours?

Originally posted by hooper
Actually Lee is no longer my stooge, he's retired. What no one wants to do is give these creeps (the hijackers and their supervisors) a public forum for thier bile. You are free to suck up the garbage in these videos to your heart's content but I don't care what they say.

Which is why your country is so incredibly hated. They are terrorists yes; but the swamp of shame, indignation, humiliation and hatred which cradled them is larger than just them. These are sentiments which have enveloped the Arabic world. Think of those sentiments what you will, but deny their existence at your own peril.

Originally posted by hooper
Gullible? You're the one who is arguing that these Muslim Ted Bundy's have a good cause.

False. I am arguing that you are denying their motive. This sort of nauseating equivocation of analysis of failed foreign policies with terrorism is what you do when you've run out of arguments.

Originally posted by hooper
And which freedoms would those be? Freedom to speak my mind? Still intact. Religion? Intact. etc. Its all good here. I think you're just jealous.

Your president now has the right to indefinitely detain you, torture you or murder you. I'm certainly not jealous of that, nor am I in awe of your blissful ignorance.

Originally posted by hooper
Yep, I'm ignorant and in denial but you're the one defending murderers.

False, I am attacking your government's failed, idiotic foreign policy.

You conflate the two because you need to silence critics with the usual hundred-percenter rhetoric, not because you have even a fleeting insight in matters of terrorism or geopolitics.

Ignorance? Check.

Denial? Check.

Cruising conspiracy forums to unload your jingoist anger, fueled by your unconditional nation-worship, on whoever dares bring up the failed foreign policies, training and sponsorship of terrorists (Operation Cyclone), which catapulted back in your face?

Check... and mate.

Speaking of homicidal maniacs:

Wikipedia: Maywand District killings

A drop in the ocean.

What's the tally on Iraqi and Afghan civilian war deaths again?

reply to post by snowcrash911


You're free to suck up all the terrorist and murderer's propaganda swill as you see fit. You want to believe that the US is hated all over the world. Fine. You may want to believe that the President has some right to murder me. Knock yourself out. But don't kid yourself about what Americans think. They are not, for one minute, going to think that the 19 murderers and their supervisor's had anything but ugly malice and hatred as "motivators".

Originally posted by hooper
You're free to suck up all the terrorist and murderer's propaganda swill as you see fit.

More terrorist drivel from the maul of right-wing propaganda.

Originally posted by hooper
You want to believe that the US is hated all over the world. Fine.

Certainly in wide swaths of the Arab world. Not in Israel though.

Originally posted by hooper
You may want to believe that the President has some right to murder me. Knock yourself out.

The President now has the right to murder American citizens. The issue of which citizens qualify is left up to his sole discretion. Due process is now a myth. Of course, so long as you don't like the citizen denied due process, you don't care... No trial, court case needed. Here, I'll cite your favorite television network:



Army contractor tortured in Iraq, sues Rumsfeld

Wikipedia: Indefinite detention of American citizens now law

Originally posted by hooper
But don't kid yourself about what Americans think. They are not, for one minute, going to think that the 19 murderers and their supervisor's had anything but ugly malice and hatred as "motivators".

Hey... tell that to Ron Paul's supporters!

Originally posted by snowcrash911

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
Whether or not an airliner weighing less than 200 tons could totally obliterate a skyscraper 2000 times its own mass in less than two hours

In fact, if we take the popular figure of 500 * 10^6(kg) for the mass of one tower and divide that by 115212(kg), the mass of one Boeing 767-222, we get 4000,

If they can't tell us the tons of steel and tons of concrete that were on each and every LEVEL of the buildings it is so nice to have a TOTAL figure that is POPULAR.



Truth is whatever the majority of geniuses BELIEVE. But all skyscrapers must support more weight toward the bottom than the top. It is one of those physics things involving gravity. Happy Birthday Isaac Newton.

psik

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
If they can't tell us the tons of steel and tons of concrete that were on each and every LEVEL of the buildings it is so nice to have a TOTAL figure that is POPULAR.

Urich's paper is good enough for me. He doesn't agree with the 500 * 10^6 number, I believe, but it will do for an unimportant, back of the envelope calculation showing whether or not the plane to WTC ratio is 1:2000 or 1:4000.

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
Truth is whatever the majority of geniuses BELIEVE. But all skyscrapers must support more weight toward the bottom than the top. It is one of those physics things involving gravity. Happy Birthday Isaac Newton.
psik

Newton's birthday is the 25th. I know there is tapering. I'm sorry you are obsessed with this single issue, and aren't doing more to resolve your own question other than whining a lot about it, although I sympathize with your quest.

And the topic is about foreign policy and 9/11 truth.

reply to post by psikeyhackr

But all skyscrapers must support more weight toward the bottom than the top. It is one of those physics things involving gravity.

And this, of course, makes them permanent and impervious to all damage, stress or catastrophe.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by psikeyhackr

 

But all skyscrapers must support more weight toward the bottom than the top. It is one of those physics things involving gravity.

And this, of course, makes them permanent and impervious to all damage, stress or catastrophe.

No, it just means that measly airliners can't obliterate them in less than two hours.

psik

reply to post by psikeyhackr

No, it just means that measly airliners can't obliterate them in less than two hours.

Well, in a nutshell, they did. We all saw it. So obviously you're wrong. I know that's quite difficult for you to understand. But you must at some point entertain the notion that you may not be correct. Its always a possibility. And based on the observed evidence to date, a very, very strong possibility.