MJ12. Thoughts please.

reply to post by SpookyVince
Fair comments, Vince.

I tend to think that the whole lot is so murky and associated with such unreliable characters that it's a waste of our time.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Well, I had posted more than 7 years ago in RATS links to 4 docs about this Doty guy. I must say that one of the best analysis I have found about these docs and Doty's implications emanate from a guy named Robert Hastings, whose father actually was in the military, and guess what? He had been stationed at Kirtland AFB...

Now, this analysis can be easily found over the internet. Search for "Robert Hastings MJ 12" and add maybe "Operation Bird Droppings" to refine. Unarguably, many sources presenting the document are not very reliable sources, however that Hastings guy is. He raises excellent questions and offers a few interesting things in his paper.

In particular, there is extract that I've always liked. I have sadly not been able to find out more about it.

In early June, 1987, I called Lee again. This was shortly before Bill Moore's press conference in Burbank, during which he intended to unveil the "Eisenhower briefing paper" and other MJ-12 material. During this call, without any prompting from me, Graham revealed that the person who had given him the documents was in fact Bill Moore. I was puzzled. Graham had previously said, on several occasions, that he had gotten the documents from an individual who worked for the U.S. Government, presumably in an intelligence capacity. As far as I knew, Bill Moore did not work for the government in *any* capacity. I asked Graham to explain this discrepancy. He unhesitatingly replied that when Moore first approached him with the documents he (Moore) showed him some kind of government ID card, with Bill Moore's picture on it but an alias typed beneath it. According to Graham, Moore indicated that he was working for the U.S. Government for the purpose of releasing sensitive UFO-related documents to the public. I began to take notes. So incredulous was I about all of this that I asked Lee to repeat his statements, which he did. I then asked him which agency Moore claimed to work for. He responded that Bill Moore's ID badge was identical to the badge shown him by the two DIS agents. When I was skeptically retorted, "You mean to tell me that Moore's badge looked like the DIS badges?", he replied, "No, it was identical to them."

I will reproduce here the conclusions of that fairly long but extremely interesting read:

SUMMARY

So, what does the MJ-12 affair add up to? I agree with Bill Moore it would be premature at this time to draw conclusions. It would not, however, be premature to carefully consider the following facts:
1) A handful of "documents" have mysteriously surfaced relating to an allegedly ultra-secret UFO policy group, code-name "MJ-12". No government agency will confirm the papers' authenticity and the National Archives has noted several discrepancies about one of them, the so-called "Cutler memo" (Enclosures N and O).
2) Another of the documents, the "Project Aquarius" message, has been discovered to be fake, in the sense that it has been altered by Bill Moore before being released to the public. As I write, there is no publicly available evidence that the original document Moore "retyped" was itself authentic.
3) The primary source for orally-transmitted MJ-12 material, code-name "Falcon", has been determined to be Richard C. Doty. According to Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Bill Moore has acknowledged that Doty confessed to forging the Ellsworth AFB document. Further, Doty's typewriter at Kirtland AFB OSI has been implicated in the "Weitzel" hoax, and he has provided information to Linda Howe that contradicts the "facts" contained in the Eisenhower briefing paper.
4) The primary researcher involved in the MJ-12 affair, Bill Moore, has, by his own account, faked a government ID card and passed himself off as an intelligence operative to at least one individual for a period of over two years. Whether Moore showed Lee Graham a laminated MUFON card, as he now claims, or a genuine government badge, of some type remains open to question.

At the beginning of this letter, I asked whether the actions of those involved with the MJ-12 affair tended to suggest a genuine release of authentic UFO-related information to the public or, on the other hand, a disinformation campaign ( or for that matter, a simple hoax). I hope that those who are truly committed to finding the answer to this question will now renew their efforts. Hard questions must be put to Moore. Evasive answers and self-serving pronouncements from him should no longer be tolerated. I trust that those who have acted in good faith, including Jamie Shandera and Stanton Friedman, will be among his toughest questioners.

This is now over 20 years old... And still foggy as the coasts of England.

Originally posted by Kandinsky

I tend to think that the whole lot is so murky and associated with such unreliable characters that it's a waste of our time.

I tend to think that as well, but I'd still be interested in reading the documents that Arthur Bray uncovered.

In 1978, Canadian researcher Arthur Bray uncovered previously classified Canadian UFO documents naming Dr. Vannevar Bush as heading a highly secret UFO investigation group within the U.S. Research and Development Board. No name for the group was given. Bray published excerpts of the documents in his 1979 book, The UFO Connection.

Kandinsky are you familiar with this book?
Do you know which documents he's referring to?

reply to post by freelance_zenarchist

Kandinsky are you familiar with this book?
Do you know which documents he's referring to?

You're referring to this book:
Arthur R Bray. The U F O connection. Ottawa: Jupiter Pub, 1979. ISBN 0969013515

Limited availability from Amazon (apparently only used copy sold at $450... I admit I am not really ready to spend that much). Link to book on Amazon

It may be also available to borrow from the National Library in Australia, as seen here.

However, the docs mentioned may (or not...) be found in this source.

It could be interesting to dig about "project Magnet" which could be linked to these docs. Difficult to know anyway if that is linked to the MJ12, although Dr Vannevar Bush is namely cited by Bray.

reply to post by freelance_zenarchist
I've read the memo ( Wilbert Smith's 'Top Secret' Memo pdf) that included a reference to Vannevar Bush and, no doubt, so had Moore and the guys who faked the MJ-12 docs. I haven't read Bray's book, but it was that memo he was talking about. It was part of Wilbert Smith's archives.

Smith didn't have much of a need-to-know and left the impression that high-up people in the Canadian Embassy had told him that Vannevar Bush was in charge of a saucer research team. They apparently told him it was the most secret thing in the States at that time. So we're to believe that the greatest secret in the USA of 1950 was shared with Canadian Embassy staff who then told Wilbert Smith. Quite a stretch. Even more when we consider how not a mention of such a poorly kept secret had been made until the above doc came out and then those developed films of the MJ-12 docs started dropping through researchers' letter boxes.

ETA - After a quick check through MUFON journals, we can place Bill Moore with Arthur Bray at the 1982 Symposium. February 82 MUFON Journal I'll see when Bob Pratt taped Moore and his ideas of generating hoax docs....hazard a guess?

That little hearsay (likely fanciful) comment was possibly a eureka moment for the MJ-12 myth-makers.

Gary Mckinnion got into the pentagons system & saw a "list" of "non terrestrial officers"
It was a division of the Navy.

He is now doing 70yrs in the states. What does. On terrestrial officers mean to you

That alone proves a higher clearance than top secret. Who are these officers and what is their occupation in the navy for?

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by freelance_zenarchist

 

ETA - After a quick check through MUFON journals, we can place Bill Moore with Arthur Bray at the 1982 Symposium. February 82 MUFON Journal

I'll see when Bob Pratt taped Moore and his ideas of generating hoax docs....hazard a guess?

Let me have a look.... hmmm can't find that owl.

Oh really?

[Edited to add]
Well it is still a great source to research. We all kids know that going in the sand is sometimes bringing a stone...

reply to post by curiousrb


I think what is known or was known as MJ12 is REAL YES. Nuff said

reply to post by SpookyVince


Yes that's the book, I've searched for it a few times but keep coming up empty. I don't live in Australia and am not stupid enough to pay $450 for a book. Thanks for searching though


reply to post by Kandinsky


Well that's disappointing if Bray was just referencing W.B. Smith's document. Smith was an interesting guy but he was way out there, and there's nothing really verifiable there. Like you said, if it was the biggest secret in the USA why would Smith know about it?

Originally posted by Kandinsky

ETA - After a quick check through MUFON journals, we can place Bill Moore with Arthur Bray at the 1982 Symposium. February 82 MUFON Journal

I'll see when Bob Pratt taped Moore and his ideas of generating hoax docs....hazard a guess?

I believe it was in '82 as well.

Also, in early 1982, Moore had approached former National Enquirer reporter Bob Pratt (who had first published a story on Roswell in the Enquirer in 1980). Moore asked Pratt to collaborate on a novel called MAJIK-12. As a result, Pratt always believed that the Majestic-12 papers were a hoax, either perpetrated personally by Moore or perhaps by AFOSI, with Doty using Moore as a willing target.

www.mufon.com...

Even if they were real they were a task force for the time... the information that was available to them at the time would be so small compared to what a group of today would glean. I don't know, I'm a bit concerned there is this continual apathy for gov't to take an official stance on aliens. The older I get the more aligned I am with what Hawking's philosophies are. Aliens are likely dangerous... even if they don't mean to be.

reply to post by curiousrb


I think that if there are Extraterrestrial craft visiting earth and if some have crashed to Earth and if we have recovered these craft, then there would need to be a very very top secret group of individuals that handle this business and see that these craft get reversed engineered so that we can use their technology.

So with that in mind, yes, I think an MJ12 group or similar could very well exist.

reply to post by SpookyVince

Let me have a look.... hmmm can't find that owl.

Oh really?

!

The only thing that can be proven with actual documentation is Truman's assigning IKE before he became President as the person in charge and responsible with the development of a committee that would take years to develop proper protocols with dealing with everything and anything that involves E.T.

This Committee was directly responsible for the development of the "AGENCY"....that is not it's real or even associated name...that was no where near prepared for the early 1950's Massive E.T. Craft Flyovers of Washington DC. This was impossible to hide as the Flyovers of E.T. Craft were so Massive in Numbers as well as lasting weeks in duration that NO ONE was prepared to deal with such a long term event.

For any here who are unaware of these happenings...just google the Washington DC Newspaper Articles as they had interviews with everyone from the President to all the Heads of the U.S. Military, Police and Fire Departments, Civil Defense, a Multitude of Physicists and all sorts of Scientists from all fields. The Military kept promising the DC Populous that they would protect U.S. Air Space...but this was a lie. The E.T. Craft...TOYED with our Pilots and since it was considered a BAD THING to admit we could not protect our own Air Space...a DEAL was cut.

This same type of event occurred AGAIN in the early 1960's and the USAF and SAC actually placed a Nuclear Tipped Air to Air Missile on the wing of an F-104 Starfighter. I can not stress how dangerous this act was as it was just attached to the wing and these Missiles were for use of shooting down Massive Soviet Bear Bomber Formations...OVER OCEAN...NOT LAND! Again...a DEAL was made. MJ12 may have been a hoax but there was a REAL COMMITTEE FORMED THAT BECAME THE..."AGENCY"...which is tasked to acquiring as much advanced E.T. Tech as possible and sending it off to what was then WRIGHT FIELD but is now WRIGHT PATTERSON AFB...HOME of the U.S. MILITARY's REVERSE ENGINEERING R&D DIVISION. Split Infinity