MJ12. Thoughts please.

reply to post by chunder

I'm not familiar with the specific detail around this particular story but just from your comments Willingham may well have been a liar but how on earth does that "prove" there was no crash ?

Just seems an illogical extension (from one of this sites most logical posters !).

I should probably have expressed myself better, but sometimes a lengthy post is a drop in the well and a waste of time.

The only single person to ever claim seeing a crashed saucer at Del Rio was Willingham. He described flying by on military duty in any given year between 1950 and 1954. He personally told Moore about the crash in the late 70s. Until very recently, Willingham's military record (colonel no less) was taken at face value and hadn't been checked. This meant that when he said he saw a saucer crash - who would doubt him?

Here we have a link between Willingham's claim, Bill Moore and the Eisenhower document. Bill Moore is the chief suspect for creating the MJ-12 documents as it was noticed that in his personal correspondence he used a particular date format. This same date format was one of the reasons the archive experts could identify the documents as faked. Essentially it was like having Moore's fingerprint in there. So Moore regarded Willingham's claim as genuine and was probably the author of the EBD when we consider some of the other incriminating indicators (tapes, intent to fake documents, the only source of the doc etc).

So...when Randle looked into Willingham he found a man who hadn't served and certainly hadn't been a colonel. He'd lied about his record and the crash story had a dozen differences relating to time of month and even year.

On that basis, it's fair to assume, on probability, that the whole story was fabricated. Would you agree?

Now, if the EBD was a *real* secret document, why would it feature a hoax? More reasonable is the idea that it was a hoax itself. A hoax written by the guy whose presence is inextricably linked to the EBD.

FWIW - you're one of the logical members who I always pay attention to.

@ Spooky Vince - I'll think about your points and reply later on.

Originally posted by curiousrb
reply to post by Pimander

 

Well the posts you guys are posting don't directly answer my question. I guess if you were to use you resource to give me an explanation of you reason why you do or do not think they exist then it's relevant. But I don't mind. Carry on as you were.

Sorry, some of the alleged MJ-12 members may have been involved with a UFO working group but it looks like a lot of the tale is myth making. I wish I knew for sure why but I'd love to hear what others think....

reply to post by SpookyVince

Well yes, in a certain sense. The fact is that they both were feeding each other with information. And they both had their own motivations. Their own purpose in the matter. Now, as for deciding who was manipulating who, it is too unclear to decide, and again in a certain sense, they were both manipulating each other also.

Perhaps the motivations in the very first place were to actually cut the grass right under the feet of those who were close to expose the reality of MJ12 and the such to the general public.

Hiya Vince, I’m not convinced about a group like MJ-12 existing. At least not in the way they are portrayed through these documents and rumours. On that basis, I hold doubts that an official disinfo program was being played out to protect such a group. What Doty, Moore and Shandera were up to may well have been based on their own individual agendas. Shandera vanished and was never the TV/movie producer he had claimed to be. Greg Bishop believes he knows who ‘Falcon’ is and is waiting to see if anyone confirms it; he’s been waiting for about 5 years! If that name is ever confirmed on more than the hearsay of Moore or Doty, we could be in for a new perspective on all this.

Indeed. It has long been debated (still is actually) whether the Aquarius documents and the MJ12 documents were real or not. But rather than stating they are faked or hoaxed, or real, I would rather try to concentrate on what part of them has been (re)forged. It is beyond doubt that a part, at least, of those documents is real.

As far as we know, several of the documents are *real* and have then had the UFO-conspiracy related stuff added in using image software. I know it’s tempting to wonder if something is being concealed in these documents, but I think to do so is to be drawn in to the BS. Whoever came up with these things have ensured researchers will be spinning their wheels.

My general feeling about the whole story (and man it's a big thing !) is that in order to keep the thing secret and protected, they had to give out part of it but fill it with as much as possible discrepancies, contradictions, faked documents and so on, so that it is only considered as impossible to be real by people.

I can agree with this and there are international examples in psychological warfare so we know it happens. Whether or not that was the reason for the MJ-12 flood is something we disagree on. This doesn’t matter as long as long as we arrive at our ideas after a little consideration; disagreement is okay.

reply to post by curiousrb

Well the posts you guys are posting don't directly answer my question. I guess if you were to use you resource to give me an explanation of you reason why you do or do not think they exist then it's relevant. But I don't mind. Carry on as you were.

Your basic question was Do you think the MJ12 group was a real group?

'Directly,' in my opinion they weren't a real group. I think they were made up with all the traits of fabrication we later saw in the Montauk and Dulce stories. Big historical figures embedded in narratives that appeal to conspiracy-minded people. In Montauk, Dulce and the Philadelphia Experiment hoaxes the chief proponents were paranoid fantasists with no connections and no insider knowledge.

Others in the thread take the opposing view that MJ-12 was a real group.

Does anyone have an opinion on this as a motive for releasing the MJ-12 docs,
or any more information on this UFO investigation group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush?
Perhaps a .pdf copy of UFO Connection they'd like to share?

In 1978, Canadian researcher Arthur Bray uncovered previously classified Canadian UFO documents naming Dr. Vannevar Bush as heading a highly secret UFO investigation group within the U.S. Research and Development Board. No name for the group was given. Bray published excerpts of the documents in his 1979 book, The UFO Connection.

As Bennewitz was the subject of a disinformation campaign, many investigators are automatically suspicious of any documents or claims made in association with the Bennewitz affair. Because the entire MJ-12 affair made its appearance only a year after Bray had made public the incriminating Canadian documents about the secret UFO committee, one theory is that the Project Aquarius Teletype message was part of a counterintelligence hoax to discredit the information in the just-revealed Canadian documents. Thus the various MJ-12 documents could be fake, but the secret committee described in the verified Canadian documents could still have been real.

reply to post by freelance_zenarchist

You guys are funny.


That's kind of what I was trying to say here.

Originally posted by Pimander
Sorry, some of the alleged MJ-12 members may have been involved with a UFO working group but it looks like a lot of the tale is myth making. I wish I knew for sure why but I'd love to hear what others think....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And here...

Originally posted by Pimander
If there is/was an organisation like MJ-12 (even if it had a different name) it would be a pretty normal deception/counter-intelligence tactic to release something resembling the truth but full of holes for obvious reasons. However, that doesn't mean that is what motivated the players here - they may have been told they were doing this for different reasons or told the documents were real....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It could be BS but if so it is BS that makes sense? What else could have motivated the release of the documents? Profit from a book? That seem to have come into it. However, if it is disinformation then the aim would be to encourage dissemination of it so books with the MJ-12 doc's would be useful (e.g Tim Goods, Above Top Secret).

If you ask me, one thing that the MJ-12 doc's have done is tear a hole in the UFO research community. The arguments eat at the credibility of other potentially important research that is ongoing. What are we doing now? Discussing these documents and not doing other research. Perhaps that is the purpose.

reply to post by Pimander

It could be BS but if so it is BS that makes sense? What else could have motivated the release of the documents? Profit from a book? That seem to have come into it. However, if it is disinformation then the aim would be to encourage dissemination of it so books with the MJ-12 doc's would be useful (e.g Tim Goods, Above Top Secret).

If you ask me, one thing that the MJ-12 doc's have done is tear a hole in the UFO research community. The arguments eat at the credibility of other potentially important research that is ongoing. What are we doing now? Discussing these documents and not doing other research. Perhaps that is the purpose.

The Aquarius document (telex) first turned up in early ’81 with Moore claiming to have received it from AFOSI. It proved to be a fake retype of the real format which was similarly used to knock-up the MJ-12 documents. In ’83, Doty was showing Moulton-Howe similar documents at Kirtland AFB that had gone a step further and named, Grays, Talls and a crash in Mexico (Del Rio again?). ‘Project Aquarius’ connects Moore to this as he was the first to have the Aquarius document.

It’s worth pointing out that greys, talls and Mexico crashes had been circulating in ufology and provided good source material.

Round about the same time as Doty and Moore were in partnership, the Dulce myth came into being. It was as grand as the MJ-12 legend with secret deals to exchange alien tech for human bodies. It drew heavily on the UFO sub-culture and featured Greys, cattle-mutilations and a President who’d sold out US citizens. Much of this was condensed by Bennewitz and injected back into ufology. Lo and behold, Moore and Doty are directly involved in its creation.

Others took the Dulce ball and ran with it. By the late 80s, it was a distinct, cultural identifier for some in ufology. They like their aliens evil, they think the US Govt controls the world and they push the themes of Montauk, Dulce, Philadelphia Experiment and MJ-12. John Lear (Krill hoax!), Moulton-Howe and the Project Camelot folk are still doing it now. Source A and Serpo (Doty again!) ran on similar lines and had no known connection to ABC agencies – they were as extravagant as MJ-12 and Dulce and created by hoaxers. It’s possible MJ-12 was a private venture between Moore and Doty.

The 80s are known as the ‘dark side of ufology’ for good reason. A handful of people took it upon themselves to make a lot of BS up and pump it out through early bbs and the conference circuit. For me, when a story has any of the elements I recognise from this era, it tells me the person passing the information is a knowing liar or a useful idiot. This extends out to the Exopolitics guys, Charles Hall and Project Camelot.

One post doesn’t do the complexity of it all justice; it’s part of the cultural history of 80s ufology in 300 words. One thing that should be clear is that Bill Moore was dead-centre in all this. He has the answers.

I think they were and are a very real group designed to raise public interest is easily debunked hoaxes, while at the same time covering up genuine cases.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Thanks for the info, prompts me to look a bit further !

reply to post by Kandinsky

Thanks for that reply. Bear with me here, it is difficult to be clear when dealing with such complex material so correct me if I missed something. I'm still not completely convinced about motive. I think you might be able to shed some light on some of this for me.

As someone who tries to understand many conspiracy theories by looking at disinformation/deception, the Bennewitz case is one I'm familiar with. In this case, motive for the disinformation looks a bit clearer. Bennewitz probably really was observing something (not necessarily aliens) that the military wanted kept quiet. AFOSI deliberately pumped Bennewitz full of disinformation via Moore and Doty who were already their agents in the UFO community. So the motive for Moore and Doty seems to be partly to confuse Bennewitz.

Obviously, the far fetched story is partly to cover up secret military projects - which often seems to be the motive for intelligence involvement if UFOlogy. The far-fetched version of the UFO myth being promoted in the UFO scene also means the MSM and public take the subject with a pinch of salt which lessens the potential for NATO enemies to use espionage to create panic or distrust in the government by manipulating the scene.

Now for where I may differ from you slightly. I think that Doty/Moore may have been given some creative license but they still had the job of manipulating the scene to keep it less credible (on myth?) for the reasons above. I also think that if they were only acting as private citizens and created the MJ-12 documents themselves, then Doty would have been in hot water for using stationary and falsifying government documents, as he was an Air Force Sargeant (although I think he was questioned by the FBI).

Furthermore, surely Doty's strange behaviour, such as offers of material like videos that never appeared, would be better explained if he was still acting to promote the myth and disrupt the scene on behalf of the authorities rather than personal profit. If Doty was trying to profit from the scene then this behaviour is harder to explain.

Don't get me wrong, I know some of the MJ-12 errors like the distance from Roswell to the crash site (75miles) seem to have originated with Berlitz and Moore's Roswell Incident. What I'm trying to say is, weren't they still operating on behalf of higher ups? Or alternatively, did Moore drop Doty in the # by faking the documents himself then posting them from Albuquerque so it appeared to be Doty or AFOSI? Or something else?

Hopefully that makes sense to you, Kandinsky. Sorry to any members who read it and it means nothing but....


I started on my journey into UFOs because I have seen stuff and wanted answers. I firmly believe there is something unexplained here. I didn't like keeping silent so as not to effect my job or other aspects of my life and was irritated by what I believed was a simple cover up. Simple? If I'd known I'm not sure I would have bothered. I'm not a quitter but this thing is massive and could easily send you the wrong way....

reply to post by Kandinsky


After further reading I accept that Willingham is a fraud and therefore there is no evidence for a crash / retrieval at El Indio. Intriguingly there are corroborated reports of a fatal air crash nearby caused by "friendly fire" which necessitated hushing up and a subsequent joint American / Mexican military retrieval but that was in 1944.

What that says about the EBD, in my view, is similar to many other of the MJ12 documents in that they contain incorrect or deliberately untruthful material. Therefore by definition many are hoaxes. The question being do they contain any truth and are any actually authentic, and down the rabbit hole you go.

The other thing that puts me off the MJ12 docs is the IPU report 22/07/1947, linked below, which gives the coordinates of the second "Roswell" crash site as lat 33 40 31, lon 106 28 29.

This is the exact location of the Trinity site and I just find it hard to believe there would be such a coincidence.

The authenticity rating used by the website for that document is high, which to me at the least puts into question the authenticity scales, if not the content of other documents.

www.majesticdocuments.com...

reply to post by chunder
Brad Sparks had problems with it too. This is a snip from the MUFON article I posted earlier...


Page 40

The MJ-12 documents just aren't legitimate. Nothing like that would ever have been committed to writing. No document like the Eisenhower briefing ever existed. Firstly, when Eisenhower cam into office, the CIA director, Bedell Smith, had been Eisenhower's Chief Of Staff during WW2. if you ever saw the movie Patton, the guy bawling Patton out all the time at Eisenhower's request was Bedell Smith. He would have been the guy to bring Eisenhower up to speed and they already had a long standing relationship. It would not have been Hillenkoeter and it would not have been on paper, it would have been an oral briefing. I'm quite convinced of that.

If Roswell did happen, there would have been something, some mechanism for studying the debris and assessing and taking advantage of the situation. I'm equally convinced that the founding of a commercial titanium industry in December 1948 under curiously unclear circumstances is absolutely worth further investigation. Could we have reverse engineered interstellar propulsion and avionic systems? No, but we could have lifted design elements from such a vehicle and figured out what it was made of and it may very well be that's exactly what happened.

reply to post by UFO Partisan


I agree....the MJ12 files are a fake. Something of this magnitude would never be made public by accident. Although some files that are legitimate about what happened and the strife between Military and Civilian Agencies fighting it out over who would control the information, data, recovered materials and ultimately....the disemination of tech. to various companies for reverse engineering....all under control of a system in place at Wright Patterson.

To think that people of this skill and adeptness in their craft would be so sloppy....doesn't jive. The only reason why they ever even discovered....and by complete accident...act of GOD...whatever....the files about Roswell and the fighting between agencies and military....is that they forgot about the actual PAPER DATA....as this had been transphered first on to Microfiche....then to Reel to Reel Computers....then to Digital.

They were forced by the Freedom of Information act to release any and all data including paper files stored in an old Midwestern Federal Buildings basement.....some one stumbled on to them after looking up plans for storage and how the First Nuclear Bombing Wing....did buisness as research for a book about abuses of U.S. Soldiers Rights and why some of them were getting cancer after improper storage and use of Nukes.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
The only reason why they ever even discovered....and by complete accident...act of GOD...whatever....the files about Roswell and the fighting between agencies and military....is that they forgot about the actual PAPER DATA....

Hey Split,.what files are you refering to? Do you have a source, or better yet a link?

edit on 24-12-2011 by Toxicsurf because: (no reason given)