Occupy Portland Mom Places 4-Year-Old Daughter On Train Tracks During Protest To Shut Down Port of P

reply to post by KySc5


If you actually believe that any of those people on those train tracks were in danger of being hit by a train while the news cameras were filming. Then I think you're pretty stupid.

I don't think that woman is smart or that she did the right thing. She definitely should not be bringing a 4 year old to a protest of this type.

All I am saying is that, if you actually believe that the trains were still heading at normal speeds toward a location where news reports of protesters gathered on or near the tracks. I think you're being blinded by her mistakes and making a big mistake yourself in judging the situation accurately.

I Would Like To Thank Every One for Commenting and I would like to point out, at 15 or 16 seconds into the video I see the Three Heads Lights of a Train on the Tracks,,, and People laying on the track!
Or Am I Wrong?

Originally posted by tkwasny

Originally posted by isyeye
Child endangerment to say the least....I cannot imagine be so irresponsible as a parent.

Children are not tools to be used as leverage.

The Taliban use them all the time as human shields. So did the Chinese in Vietnam, the Japanese in WWII. It's perfectly normal to use innocents as human shields in time of conflict. Horrific and evil beyond words, but perfectly normal. Humans are horrid.

Please show me Proof my Ex-Countrymen ever used Children as Human Shields.
I'm not trying to derail my own thread,,,, But, Sheeeeeeettttt, your statement:

The Taliban use them all the time as human shields. So did the Chinese in Vietnam,

Just popping in real quick to say that I am horrified by such a depraved act of selfishness, recklessness, and egregious disregard of life. It was the opposite of love, the antithesis of truth, and is indicative of some level of moral bankruptcy.

However, it really has nothing to do with the Occupy Movement, besides the location in which it occurred. This woman is only as representative of OWS as any random member is of the society in which they live (which is often beyond any of our control). I felt compelled to come here and remind everyone to be cautious of employing logical fallacies within their posts. Not one of us can claim 100% innocence here - if you're a human being, then it's highly probable that you've been guilty of displaying faulty logic at some point. However, some of us are more vigilant than others in making sure we remain on sound logic's side as often as possible.

Example of fallacious logic:
(

Originally posted by Alxandro
This is yet another example of why they (OWS) need to stop referring to themselves as the 99% because clearly they don't represent 99% of the general public.

Maybe we should pursue legal action against OWS for misrepresentation?

This is logically fallible for several reasons. First of all, I'm suspicious that your argument in general is an example of "begging the question." I don't know what angle in which to respond to your point because I'm not even exactly sure what it is. Moving on though, it appears that you're using this situation as an example of why OWS doesn't truly represent 99% of society. Okay, but specifically what about this event comprises your example - the woman's abuse of her child? That because one protester is shown to be a child abuser, it means the entire protest is pro-child abuse? ("Hasty generalization" fallacy!) You assume that one has something to do with the other... which it doesn't. Not logically, anyway.

Also, in saying this you're also assuming that engaging in child abuse provides a signifier as to whether or not a person can accurately "represent the public" or not. Obviously, society and human behavior is a lot more complex than that... your argument is incredibly weak. (And I don't mean to come across as attacking or unkind, but your post provided the best examples. I apologize if I have offended you or caused any negative feelings. My only intention is to promote logic and truth.)

Now, for something a bit more positive:
*

Originally posted by Tea4One

That woman is an idiot. This isn't a question of her part in OWS, this is just one person being a fool.

Thank you for your wisdom. You seem to have a similar understanding as I do, and I want to thank you for that.

reply to post by jewdiful


Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I'm just indirectly pointing out the double standards and the hypocrisy here.
If something positive were ever to occur at any OWS event, you know the followers would be quick to conveniently toot their own horn. Yet whenever something happens that paints them unfavorably, they immediately come out and say "that doesnt represent OWS".

Im sick of the crock.
My point is this, if they are bold enough to call themselves the "99%", then they don't have the right to selectively and conveniently decide which protesters are worthy of the OWS label.
As far as I'm concerned, if something happens at OWS, then OWS should be held accountable.
Don't you think?

What would be so wrong with having a level and unbiased playing field?

These same people have been quick to call Tea Party members angry, voilent, racist rednecks just because it's been convenient to do so.
They, along with the MSM, conveniently choose to ignore what really goes on at Tea Parties, but of course it's easier to whip out the race card.
Fact is, you don't have people defecating in public at TP events and you also don't have 14 year old girls getting raped either. I could go on but what's the use, I'll be called racist or whatever the word of the day happens to be. Point is, there is more civility at TP events but you'll never hear about it.

Btw, don't worry about me, Im a big boy and don't easily get offended.

reply to post by jewdiful


YEA!!!! What Alxandro Said,, I agree 100% He is Absolutely Correct! OWS must absorb and account for the action of a few!
The reason Being,,,,, They Have No Leadership!

reply to post by Alxandro
Sacrifices must be made for the cause, dood!
That baby was collateral damage. As a matter of fact, I'm going to name my next mommas' baby "Collateral Damage" because it's for the cause, man. Dood. Brah.
If the train hit them, it'd be because the 1% OWNS the train, and no-one really OWNS a train, because it's the peoples' train.*

*Disclaimer, I'm rather grouchy this morning and haven't had enough caffiene. Please forgive. This is yet another brilliant example of "Occupy".

Gee, what a class act. She is really blazing a path for change alright. I foresee change in that child's custody. I even see the kid Occupying a child protective services office in the near future, as well it should be.

It's a shame some people have gotten so lost in the romantic vision of the cause, they've come to make excuses or dismiss even the most vile and objectionable behavior. One does NOT need to support every goofball and fruit loop under the name of the Occupy banner to fully support the cause behind it and the need for change it all represents.

I so wish the Occupy folks would realize the truth of that and put an end to this kind of despicable behavior by showing an absolute ZERO tolerance for it.

People ask what the differences are between the Tea Party and the Occupy Movement? THAT is one of them, right there. One makes excuses for this, while the other would be performing a citizens arrest for obvious endangerment of a small child, even at THEIR OWN protest event.

Originally posted by MathiasAndrew
The woman in the video is wrong for placing her child in a dangerous situation. I don't like the idea of any young child attending any of these protests.

But I think all of you people here who are calling her stupid are the real "stupid" ones.

Obviously the news cameras were there and it was a large organized protest. Their was no danger from a train.

Any trains would have been notified of the hazard and told to stop or reduce their approach speed to the minimum.

If you are going to watch a short video and make a bunch assumptions about a person, I think you should at least use an accurate description of the scenario.

None of those protesters were ever in danger of being hit by a train. That being said, none of these protests are a safe place to bring a young child.

[Mod Edit: Snipped] As a certified locomotive engineer, I can tell you that whether or not news crews are there, it cannot be assumed that traffic on the line would be re-routed. People always need to play it safe around railroad tracks, because as many other people have stated it takes a while for a train to stop. Also, children should not even play on abandoned tracks because they can be slippery and possibly cause injury. And how do you know what is abandoned and what isn't? Ever seen the beginning of Fried Green Tomatos where the guy gets his foot caught in a switch, and is hit by the train? That danger is all too real.

When it comes to safety, the railroads cannot possibly fence off every track, so people need to use common sense. How are we "stupid" for expecting a woman to do that with her own child? You are just naive.

By the way, how was the railroad supposed to know about the protest? Did OWS call with a warning they would be at mile post whatever at such and such a time? I highly doubt it, so how and why would you expect the railroad to be aware of this, and for that matter, why is it their responsiblity to react? Isn't OWS all about making people in power take responsiblity for the situation? Yet OWS seems that they cannot be responsible for their own.

Wow, just wow... It is honestly scary to me that this woman has a child....


Sorry, but faith in humanity is not enough to stop a train. Those things are fast and heavy and take quite a while to come to a stop....

I don't know what else to say aside from any parent willing to place their child on train tracks, knowing that a train could come....Does not need to be a parent...At all.

Disgusting.

reply to post by guohua


people this stupid should not be allowed to reproduce

I think the woman in question is very foolish. Why would someone put their child through something like that?

The only way a train would hit these people is if they were instructed to.

To put it in dumbed down terms the 1% can understand.. What they are doing is the equivalent to laying down in a driveway vs a highway. Its a set of tracks leading to loading / unloading docks not an open set of tracks going across the countryside. Notice how they only showed one angle of the tracks leading out from the docks.

Also railroad engineers are fully aware of this condition well before they are within 100 miles of the area.. Railroads have a sophisticated communications system as the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) fines railroads about $11,000 per day if they find a dead spot along the path of a train.

reply to post by overratedpatriotism


I know if you have watched the video, There is a train on the tracks at the 15 or 16 seconds mark, clearly seen!

Now, Who has the Right of Way?
100 tonnes of Train or a Brain Dead 150lb Woman and 40 or so pond 4 year old? Please be advised,
I only Guessed at the weights. I only make this statement because a fairly new member replied to a thread I started in Folk Tales and Legends, They said I needed to state only Facts and I was Lying.
I told them to lighten-Up, this is the Folk Tales and Legend Posting Area and a Folk Tale will not always be a True Story.
SORRY just Ranting!

reply to post by guohua


Beyond stupid? Yep.

OWS, you are full of these people.

hahahhahahaha WOW she has no idea how trains work....

Originally posted by overratedpatriotism
The only way a train would hit these people is if they were instructed to.

To put it in dumbed down terms the 1% can understand.. What they are doing is the equivalent to laying down in a driveway vs a highway. Its a set of tracks leading to loading / unloading docks not an open set of tracks going across the countryside. Notice how they only showed one angle of the tracks leading out from the docks.

Also railroad engineers are fully aware of this condition well before they are within 100 miles of the area.. Railroads have a sophisticated communications system as the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) fines railroads about $11,000 per day if they find a dead spot along the path of a train.

You think you know what you are talking about, but you dont. Even if speed was restricted to yard limits(10mph) there is still a danger. I have heard of people hitting cars at that speed at crossings when the auto tries to beat the train. So much for the driveway vs highway analogy.
Also, if it is indeed a port railroad, they are probably a class 3, so there is no requirement for any of the stuff you alluded to. On that note, what systems are you referring to exactly? You seemed to quote from some base of knowledge, and even mentioned a number to look smart, but then did not elaborate on exactly what kind of system you were talking about. What exactly is this magical system that would tell anyone within 100 miles if there was an obstruction on the tracks? And for that matter, why would you need to know 100 miles, or 1 and a half hours in advance? Please, dont just post numbers and mythical systems to sound smart.

reply to post by steppenwolf86


I don't feel the need to argue with you. But, I think you're not really seeing the situation for what it is. I can understand you wanting to advocate railway safety. However, I seriously doubt your claims that you are a Certified Railway Engineer. You don't seem to posses the correct understanding of a Port railway system.

Perhaps it's because you are not from the USA. Maybe there is a different system and policy in your area. But If you are indeed trained in railway safety and involved in railroad transportation here in the USA. Then I don't see how you can be applying your statements to this particular situation. In fact you are being very naive and ignorant by denying the safety features built into such a location like the one in the video.

The Port Authority, Customs and Exchange, Security Agencies and/or other local agencies involved monitor all traffic in and out of the Port. The news crews being on scene are another key factor that needs to be emphasized as far as considering the visibility of the protesters. There is no doubt in my mind that local railway safety officials were absolutely informed of the presence of the protesters on the tracks.

In the video you can clearly see a train already stopped on the tracks. You can also clearly see a junction in the tracks themselves. I do not know for certain but I would think that location is under 24 hour video surveilance.
Your statements apply to areas of railway that are not being monitored or have news cameras filming them.

Once again if you actually believe anyone in that video was in danger of being hit by a train, then you are the naive, stupid one. If you insist otherwise then I don't know what to say to you. Other than you are free to believe what you want.

Originally posted by steppenwolf86

Originally posted by overratedpatriotism
The only way a train would hit these people is if they were instructed to.

To put it in dumbed down terms the 1% can understand.. What they are doing is the equivalent to laying down in a driveway vs a highway. Its a set of tracks leading to loading / unloading docks not an open set of tracks going across the countryside. Notice how they only showed one angle of the tracks leading out from the docks.

Also railroad engineers are fully aware of this condition well before they are within 100 miles of the area.. Railroads have a sophisticated communications system as the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) fines railroads about $11,000 per day if they find a dead spot along the path of a train.

You think you know what you are talking about, but you dont. Even if speed was restricted to yard limits(10mph) there is still a danger. I have heard of people hitting cars at that speed at crossings when the auto tries to beat the train. So much for the driveway vs highway analogy.
Also, if it is indeed a port railroad, they are probably a class 3, so there is no requirement for any of the stuff you alluded to. On that note, what systems are you referring to exactly? You seemed to quote from some base of knowledge, and even mentioned a number to look smart, but then did not elaborate on exactly what kind of system you were talking about. What exactly is this magical system that would tell anyone within 100 miles if there was an obstruction on the tracks? And for that matter, why would you need to know 100 miles, or 1 and a half hours in advance? Please, dont just post numbers and mythical systems to sound smart.

edit on 15-12-2011 by steppenwolf86 because: (no reason given)

I don't think radios and GPS systems are magical... though if you do, I can tutor you in physics later.

I can hold your hand and read it for you if you need me to.

49 C.F.R. PART 220—RAILROAD COMMUNICATIONS
Title 49 - Transportation

§ 220.23 Publication of radio information.
Each railroad shall designate where radio base stations are installed, where wayside stations may be contacted, and the appropriate radio channels used by these stations in connection with railroad operations by publishing them in a timetable or special instruction. The publication shall indicate the periods during which base and wayside radio stations are operational.

§ 220.9 Requirements for trains.
(1) Any train that transports passengers shall be equipped with a working radio in the occupied controlling locomotive and with redundant working wireless communications capability in the same manner as provided in paragraph (a) of this section.


Edit forgot the fines
§ 220.7 Penalty.
top

Any person (including but not limited to a railroad; any manager, supervisor, official, or other employee or agent of a railroad; any owner, manufacturer, lessor, or lessee of railroad equipment, track, or facilities; any independent contractor providing goods or services to a railroad; and any employee of such owner, manufacturer, lessor, lessee, or independent contractor) who violates any requirement of this part or causes the violation of any such requirement is subject to a civil penalty of at least $550 and not more than $11,000 per violation, except that: Penalties may be assessed against individuals only for willful violations; where a grossly negligent violation or a pattern of repeated violations has created an imminent hazard of death or injury, or has caused death or injury, a penalty not to exceed $27,000 per violation may be assessed; and the standard of liability for a railroad will vary depending upon the requirement involved. Each day a violation continues shall constitute a separate offense. (See appendix C to this part for a statement of agency civil penalty policy.)

reply to post by MathiasAndrew


I am a citizen of the United States. I have worked in the past for the Indiana Harbor Belt, and a small class III railroad also in Chicago.

You attack my credentials but do not respond to my points and questioning of your claims. First of all, I have not watched the video and have been judging the mother's actions based on other poster's disgust. Second of all, if you know half as much as you think you do about railroads, you would be agreeing with me one hundred percent that there is never a time or a place to tell a child to lay down on the tracks.

The fact that you seem to think is okay "because people know about it" is extremely naive and lacking in understanding of a four year old mind. How is the child to know why it is acceptable in this case, but not acceptable on the tracks over behind grandma's house?

And third, you admit that it is a port railway and has security. If this is so, HOW DID the protesters get in? While I will admit it is likely that the train crew had prior knowledge of the situation, and yes the train was probably operating within yard limits, at restricted speed. Were people likely to get hit? No. Was it an absolutly STUPID, UNSAFE thing to do, and TEACH A 4 YEAR OLD?

So who are you to judge, a railfan? As for the guy talking about radios, big deal. Do you really think a Class III railroad has GPS tracking? So how are a few guys with radios supposed to monitor everything? When I first started working, I was on a short line with 5 miles of track. But we still didn't know what was going on around the curve, hidden by the buildings. Heck, we even had to flag our crossings, run through streets and parkinglots and so on. Two guys with a radio, one in the cab, one on the ground, with no dispatcher(Remember, a Class III), how could we know what was going on out of our sight? Still doubt me?

[Mod Edit: Remarks Snipped]