PAX Americana: Why all the US bashing? Is it really Just Bush? (Not a Mud Pit Discussion Please)

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty

Originally posted by Regulator

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty
And I did not say Ignorant... I said Immature. There is a huge diference.

Ok you didn't say it, but you implied that they were ignorant about politics.

Again, I said Immature. I mean in the way of most of us dont remember Bush's Airforce Gaurd time, or some of the other things that are a huge part of both political partys campaign.

Like I said previously I know what you said but you IMPLIED that they were ignorant.

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty
I also mean, that most of us dont pay house taxes, or RRSP's, or for Health care, or many, many other things that are huges parts of both political partys campaign.

Well I am from England so I don't pay or participate in any of the things these parties stand for, does this mean I am immature when it comes to American politics?

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty
Most of us have never seen a big war in our times...

War is war, and I'd say many have us have seen more than enough wars...

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty
Alot of us dont have the stress of a family and trying to hold down a constant job in this economy.

I'm quite sure most of us do have families, siblings, parents etc... All family is stressful! I'm also quite sure that many of us are trying to hold down a constant job, I am.

Look at the demographics link muppet provided... very good. 48% of ATS users are 26 and over.

But all this is completely off subject, so i'll stop now.

Originally posted by Regulator

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty
I also mean, that most of us dont pay house taxes, or RRSP's, or for Health care, or many, many other things that are huges parts of both political partys campaign.

Well I am from England so I don't pay or participate in any of the things these parties stand for, does this mean I am immature when it comes to American politics?

Possibly (depending on how you look at it, if talking about maturety in the way of experience, ya you are "immature". If talking about what you learn in school and the internet[how American Gov works], you are probley pretty mature.), Id at least say that dont have the needed experience in American ways of life to have a vote, therefore you dont really have a say in reality regardless of your maturety or knowledge of American politics.

Iam not making a attack at you in any way, just stating the truth.

I trying to explain why I think bush is attacked on these wed sites... but elected in reality, and maybe as it looks for another 4 years even though there is an over whelming hatred for Bush here.

If Iam so off topic, Ill stop now...

HumptyDumpty, just to make sure I'm not misinterpreting the point you're trying to make here... Are we to understand your opinion to be that those who do not subscribe to the Bush Administration's manner of running the U.S. are either ignorant to politics or immature?

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Durden]

Originally posted by Durden
HumptyDumpty, just to make sure I'm not misinterpreting the point you're trying to make here... Are we to understand your opinion to be that those who do not subscribe to the Bush Aministration's manner of running the U.S. are either ignorant to politics or immature?

No.

The question was,"Why all the US bashing? Is it really Just Bush?"...

Iam trying to make the point that it is not just Bush that makes up for all the USA hatred. That our "immature" insight to politics, or should I say, our relitativly young population here on ATS would chalk up this hatred to being Bush's fault. When in reality it is many things that have made up this hatred for the USA through out the years.... Which will explain why Bush is going to be re-elected. If he was doing so bad of a job in reality, he'd already be out of the running. I'd say hes doing a constistanty bad job of running the USA, as many before him have also done... Which is where the hate for the USA comes from, consistanly bad politics and foreign policys for alot of years now. IMO.

Put it this way, I dont dislike the USA's policys because of Bush... I didnt like their policys before Bush was in office.

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty
No.

The question was,"Why all the US bashing? Is it really Just Bush?"...

Iam trying to make the point that it is not just Bush that makes up for all the USA hatred. That our "immature" insight to politics, or should I say, our relitativly young population here on ATS would chalk up this hatred to being Bush's fault. When in reality it is many things that have made up this hatred for the USA through out the years.... Which will explain why Bush is going to be re-elected.

I think you need to focus on the actual essence of this question. If we're talking about US bashing, isn't it at least plausible that this question is somewhat pointed towards citizens of other countries than the U.S.? Now, how would an outcome of the election where Bush remains president in any way prove the alleged immaturity of these people? That just doesn't make any sense.

If he was doing so bad of a job in reality, he'd already be out of the running.

So what you're saying here is that you actually think he is doing a good job?

I'd say hes doing a constistanty bad job of running the USA, as many before him have also done... Which is where the hate for the USA comes from, consistanly bad politics and foreign policys for alot of years now. IMO.

And now you're saying you think he's doing a bad job?

Let me ask you another question. In what way do you feel that the citizens of the United States would be less ignorant to the foreign policies than the foreigners being subjected to it?

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Durden]

Originally posted by Durden

If he was doing so bad of a job in reality, he'd already be out of the running.

So what you're saying here is that you actually think he is doing a good job?

No, from a candians point of view (Me) I think that if the people of the USA thought that he "was doing so bad of a job in reality, he'd already be out of the running".

Originally posted by Durden

I'd say hes doing a constistanty bad job of running the USA, as many before him have also done... Which is where the hate for the USA comes from, consistanly bad politics and foreign policys for alot of years now. IMO.

And now you're saying you think he's doing a bad job?

Yes, I think hes doing a bad job... but not any worse than the people that ran office before him in the near past. A.K.A. the reason why hes still in office. Because what we look at as being bad policy, they look at as "being the policy". And unless Bush does something that pisses off his own people enough, hes going to be the pres for the next 4 more years.

Originally posted by Durden
Let me ask you another question. In what way do you feel that the citizens of the United States would be less ignorant to the foreign policies than the foreigners being subjected to it?

.....

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty

Originally posted by Durden
Let me ask you another question. In what way do you feel that the citizens of the United States would be less ignorant to the foreign policies than the foreigners being subjected to it?

.....

Well, didn't you say that the "U.S.-bashers" were ignorant and/or immature to U.S. politics (in this case - foreign policies), which would be the reason for their dislike of the Bush Administration? And didn't you also say that it would prove your point if Bush was reelected?

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Durden]

I have no problem with the American people at all, I live in the UK and one of my best Buds at work is an American called Bill. A Texan no less. He is one of the kindest, nicest blokes i know. We have a bit of friendly banter he calls me a Yorkshire Limy and i call him Billy Reb, no malice or ill feeling at all.
I think people need to stop equating the American PEOPLE with the American GOVERNMENT.
Sure America can be a bit overbearing at times but im sure when we ruled 2 thirds of the World, By we i mean Great Britain, im sure we were viewed in the same way.
People need to get over themselves, the American people are not evil they are not monsters they are Human bieng like the rest of us. So they are the most powerful nation in the World, why should that fact Colour peoples view of normal Americans? The American people are not the American Government. We really need to get away from this "we are better than you" crap and "America is Evil and bad" nonsense.

Originally posted by Durden

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty

Originally posted by Durden
Let me ask you another question. In what way do you feel that the citizens of the United States would be less ignorant to the foreign policies than the foreigners being subjected to it?

.....

Well, didn't you say that the "U.S.-bashers" were ignorant and/or immature to U.S. politics (in this case - foreign policies), which would be the reason for their dislike of the Bush Administration? And didn't you also say that it would prove your point if Bush was reelected?

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Durden]

In a way I guess I did.

I ment that the "immature" opinions on this site IMO (Mine too, I still maturing) are because of a lack of understanding that these same policys have been carried out and repeated many times before Bushes administration (this is where IMO the majority of the Bush hate comes from).... And yes if hes re-elected, IMO, that would mean the the older people ("Mature" voters) that make up the majority of the votes, had voted for Bush, beacuse hes not done anything that the "Mature" voters are not used too already.

I mean really, what has he done that any other presedents wouldn't/would have done in the years that Bush was given? I just think that the hate is for the US Gouvernment in general, no matter the pres...

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty
I ment that the "immature" opinions on this site IMO (Mine too, I still maturing) are because of a lack of understanding that these same policys have been carried out and repeated many times before Bushes administration (this is where IMO the majority of the Bush hate comes from).... And yes if hes re-elected, IMO, that would mean the the older people ("Mature" voters) that make up the majority of the votes, had voted for Bush, beacuse hes not done anything that the "Mature" voters are not used too already.

Don't mean to be jumping on your throat or anything, but this is what doesn't quite make sense to me. If the topic of this thread is US-bashing, one would think the bashers would not be US citizens. Now, if the reason for this dislike of Bush comes from these (foreign) bashers being immature as you say, how would it prove this point of yours if the majority of US citizens would reelect Bush??

I mean really, what has he done that any other presedents wouldn't/would have done in the years that Bush was given? I just think that the hate is for the US Gouvernment in general, no matter the pres...

I actually don't agree here. At least from my perspective, this dislike is very much pointed at the Bush Administration.

To each his own...

True. Essentially it's all about different views on things, isn't it ?

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Durden]

I truely belive that it is. So many prespectives, so many different experiences, so many different ways of thinking.

Originally posted by mincepie
AAARGHH - That's an example of exactly what I mean FredTIt may seem petty but it drives us MAD when others (and it does seem to be predominantly those from the US) refer to us as England.

Sorry my bad you are correct.......... I will mend my errent ways

Originally posted by masterp
First of all, USA does it in a far wider scale. Secondly, France and Britain (and other countries) have done such things, but they stopped a long time ago. Thirdly, it is no excuse.

Looking out for national interests is a perfectly good excuse, and I woul beg to differ about US doing it on a far wider scale. Look at France and the UK at thier respictive heights. A nation has to look out for its security and its national interests. The EU does exactly the same thing. They may have not deployed forces as of yet, but they seem pretty cuthroat in the the business arena (Remeber the Japanese saying: Business IS war)

The system forces you. The 'fast food' mentality is not only about food...it's about everything.

Okay I thought you were refering only about food. The information age has sped up everything. From the Internet to the proliferation of PDA, cell phones etc has made life faster and faster. I don't think that "fast food" mentality can be layed completely on our doorstep (actually, the Intergrated Circut was developed in Palo Alto my home town, lot of other stuff too, but thats off topic). If it can, are you implying that people in other countries are sheep? Based on what I have seen from people on ATS and from your posts, you are NOT sheep.

I never said it was exclusive to USA citizens. I said USA was the place that the mentality originated from.

I don't even know what to say to that. Are you quite serious?

.
No, they can't. Too few people are strong enough to say it's a cloudy day, when everyone says it's a sunny one.

Again free will (I refer you back to the "Sheep" comment). The TV stations in other countries would not play american shows if they did not have an audience. Same with movies. A TV station in France would not risk loosing money showing say Friends, if it did not have an audience for it.

You are responsible, indirectly (and some times, definitely directly). The wild chase of money has led to people being exploited by those who has the means of production.And don't forget sweat shops all around the world. Nike sells its shoes at roughly the same price as 20 years ago, only now it costs 1/10 of what it used to produce them, because they are produced by poor people in third world countries, rather than USA citizens

Hmmmm where did you buy your shoes from? Unless you went to the local cobbler, you are also just as guilty as I am when I put on my shoes. That being said, I agree with you that the exploitation of labor needs to be addressed. However, you guys are taouting the EU as a equal or greater than the US. Are you saying that it is USA that only consumes those goods? Does the EU produce everything it needs via its member nations?

In an idealistic world, I would be able to avoid being shot because I would not be part of the gun culture. But not in this world! any kid with a twisted mind has access to a gun, can enter a store, and shoot me to kingdome come!

I love that part. My brother in law was kind of the same way. Do you really think its like the OK Corall here on a daily basis?

No one tought him that the pain and suffering he goes through is because of the selfishness and shallowness of the world. And this situation has been created and is perpetuated by the US culture, that wants people to be sheeps, uneducated, without being able to judge for themselves, only care about materialistic things, about what "we eat and drink"...

Now is that based on fact or perception? If our culture is so invasive and apparently as you have pointed out impossible to resist, we would not be having this conversation. France would have followed us to war in Iraq.

Yes we have a consumer economy however, to lable us as uneducated and materialistic is simply wrong. Nor would i charecterize the population of the US or the EU as sheep. You have implied that the citizens of each are.

Ok, but you originally sounded like there can be no argument against USA. Now that you have plenty, what are you going to say?

I never said that. I knew there would be however, you asked if I wanted more and "Bring it on" is and bold yes!




[edit on 9-9-2004 by FredT]

God bless America

[edit on 20-9-2004 by ancientsailor]

Originally posted by ancientsailor
God bless America

ditto ancient sailor. We could sure use one (a blessing).

Hmm. I'm a French citizen living in the US so here's my take ( I go back to France on a regular basis, btw).

I think it's important to understand the European mentality. The EU was originally created for one real purpose beyond trading coal and steel - to prevent another World War 2. Americans really have no idea the rifts that that caused in European society - the death, the insanity, the gaze into the black depths of the human spirit. For France, for example, the (supposedly) most powerful land army defeated in two weeks, thousands collaborating with the Nazis, created serious, serious schizophrenia - we honestly don't know who we are or if we have any reason for existing anymore. The EU comforted this by unifiying, giving a common purpose. And so far it's been incredibly successful. If you'd told my great grandfather (who fought in the trenches of WWI and risked his life to get downed american aimen out of france in WW2) that I'd be freinds with germans, he'd a thought I was crazy. But I am. The EU has created sense of brotherhood, of cooperation, a beleif in diplomacy for a lot of eurpoeans. The fact that it seems to be floundering right now really blows.

But anyways, back to the point. The US is seen as being too morally rigid, having too strong a belief in its own morality - and it reminds us of Germany in the 1930's, and we're afraid for you. We don't want you to repeat the mistakes that we made, and that caused us to become shadows of our former selves. The current American admin. is seen as being brash and arrogoant, and insulting, especially towards the UN. Most European see this as flawed, but think that it's a better alternative for world peace than the US "Take our freedom and freedom fries and shove them down your throat or we'll kick your ass. Thanks for choosing Uncle Sam's" approach.

Also, people are very offended by the US hatred of Europeans, or at least, what they can tell from their own biased media. We usually think that the US is a positive thing, but it's kinda hard to hold on to that belief when you're getting insulted personally.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
People are always going to hate the top dog. Even after Bush is gone and even if we had the best American president the world has ever seen some people would still hate the US.

If China becomes the most powerful nation on earth some day some people will hate China for the same reason.

Yeah that's how it will happen. Sweet.

And no it's not just Bush. Come on. It's also the Bush administration