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If only there was free, downloadable software that could tell you what the moon should look like, any time you want and from a location of your choice. Hmmmm.

*seriousface*

reply to post by this_is_who_we_are


Im in NE Ohio and tonight the Crescent Moon looked almost exactly like a horizontal bowl. It was tilted a bit to the left though. I remember reading this reply the other day and just thought i'd post what I seen tonight. It looked pretty cool and thought to take a pic but was driving with daughter in car.

I really do not understand why people seem to insist that there is something wrong with the moon, or why they insist on trying to apply absolutes with it (IE: the moon MUST look like such and such if you are located at this latitude on Earth). That's nonsense.

If the moon followed a circular path (it doesn't) in it's orbit around the Earth, and if the Earth's axis was at 0 degrees (it isn't), then we would be dealing in absolutes here.

If the moon and earth did have those perfect attributes, then we would have a solar eclipse at the exact same latitude on the earth, every single time.....

But we don't. Instead we have solar eclipse appearing at all sorts of latitudes. Same goes for lunar eclipses.

I've been observing the moon from my current latitude since 1989, and it has appeared in many different phases: boat, cat, bowl, full, you name it. I've also observed it rising and setting at various places on the horizon (never directly North or South, but I have seen it swing from ESE to ENE and WSW to WNW).
I would be very upset and horrified if it DID NOT do these things.

Lastly: even if you think that MSM and Main Stream Science is controlled by the government or who ever, there are literally millions upon millions of amateur astronomers out there, and I think enough of them would have noticed if something was wrong. You can't control that many people, and you definately can not hide something as big as the moon having something actually wrong with it.

Anyways, I just don't understand the preoccupation with something that is not wrong in the first place. But I am very concerned about the Earth itself, it's climate and geology more than I am the moon.

Originally posted by luxordelphi

when one talks about going out and looking up at the moon, they're going to do it at night and the part of the Earth facing away from the sun is most definitely seasonal for the same reason that the part facing it is

Think before you type. Alot of people see the moon in the day. Full moon, while heavily linked to romance in our western culture, is not the beginning or end-all but rather a mid-point in the moon's monthly orbit. Sunsets are another time that people are out in the western world looking and that would be a good time to spot the crescent moon. As far as the part of the world facing away from the sun and the part facing the sun being seasonal - I think not...I think you're talking about day and night. It happens.

Actually, a full moon is a mid point in the monthly phases of the moon, not necessarily a midpoint in its orbit. The phase of the moon is dependent on the relative positions of the observer on Earth and the sun at that time of year when compared to the moon's current position in its orbit around Earth.

The seasons are mostly caused by the Earth's tilt.

Mostly? Be assured that they are caused by the earths' tilt. Here's a link to some long...really long...cycles that supposedly influence the seasons as well. We won't live to see these differences but I guess we can theorize about them and think about how they may affect us. What we're talking about here in this thread though seems to be something a little bit more abrupt.

(orbital distance and amount of landmass on the northern hemisphere that causes the north to experience more variant seasons than the southern),

Distance I know about but landmass I don't as far as a relationship to seasons. Please tell me more.

Yes, it is -mostly- caused by the Earth's tilt..because the Earth is actually further away from the sun during the northern summer than it is in winter. Really not going to argue semantics on that one though.

And not to further derail, but yes, landmass is a factor in the seasons because the northern hemisphere has a lot more landmass than the southern and rocks, dirt, etc (aka 'land') is going to have a much more variant temperature between winter and summer than the oceans. There's an animation out there on wiki that shows the seasonal progression and it's pretty easy to notice the difference, but this is not really on topic so I leave that to you to go look if you really are wanting to know more about it.

So as we've been saying, during the winter, the moon as viewed at night on Earth is going to follow the same general path through the sky as the sun does in summer

The moon follows the same path as the sun day and night, month after month with a variance of 5 degrees either side spread out over an 18.6 year cycle.

The moon is monthly, it is not seasonal. It varies 5 degrees from the suns' path over an 18.6 year cycle wherein it reaches maximum and minimum variance called lunar standstills and sometimes equated to the yearly solstices and equinoxes of the sun.

This is the part we've been trying to explain to you that you are either failing to understand or are willfully continuing on despite being wrong.

Yes, the moon does indeed follow the same path in its orbit regardless of what season it is. The thing that you're missing is that the Earth's tilt causes the path of the ecliptic in the night sky...which is where the moon's orbit lies (the whole variance of 5 degrees on the 18.6 year cycle is to the ecliptic), to change position in the sky to an observer on Earth over the course of a 24hr period because of the Earth's tilt. Over the course of a year, the position of the ecliptic in the day and night side of the planet will switch due to the Earth being on the opposite side of the sun.

During winter we are tilted away from the sun, which means all objects which orbit along the ecliptic will appear higher in the sky at nightto an observer on the northern hemisphere. Conversely, things visible during the day to an observer will appear lower during the day. That means, the planets, constellations of the zodiac, moon, etc.

In order for the moon to retain the same positions in the night sky throughout the year would require it to have an orbit that shifted on a yearly cycle...which it does not do and even you have said this over and over again.

The moon being visible during the day has nothing to do with your cheshire/boat/etc moon as that moon occurs at night, so I see no point in really bringing that into this - suffice to say I never said it wasn't visible during the day.

If you can draw a straight line from where the sun would be (below the horizon) through the boat moon to one of the constellations of the zodiac...I'll give you a guess what that means - and it's certainly not that there's something wrong with the moon.

reply to post by Dashdragon

If you can draw a straight line from where the sun would be (below the horizon) through the boat moon to one of the constellations of the zodiac...I'll give you a guess what that means - and it's certainly not that there's something wrong with the moo[n]

It has been pointed out that a boat moon occurs when the ecliptic is near perpendicular to the horizon at moonset. It has also been ignored.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Dashdragon

Actually, a full moon is a mid point in the monthly phases of the moon, not necessarily a midpoint in its orbit. The phase of the moon is dependent on the relative positions of the observer on Earth and the sun at that time of year when compared to the moon's current position in its orbit around Earth.

The first sentence is true. The second sentence is hogwash - the phase is the same everywhere on earth.

And not to further derail, but yes, landmass is a factor in the seasons because the northern hemisphere has a lot more landmass than the southern and rocks, dirt, etc (aka 'land') is going to have a much more variant temperature between winter and summer than the oceans.

So nothing to do with seasons. Just the principal of if you're living on asphalt, the summer will be hotter.

The rest of your post...it's not a 2-dimensional world. The sun and the moon follow the ecliptic in the sky with variances as we have discussed. The sun is never (was never) overhead in Las Vegas because Las Vegas is at 36 degrees north latitude and the sun can only go (used to go) as far north as 23.5 degrees. The moon is never (was never) overhead in Las Vegas because the moon can only go (used to go) as far north as 28.5 degrees.

The full moon looks higher in the sky in winter than summer BUT its' relationship to the sun has not changed and does not change winter or summer except in the 18.6 year cycle. On Sept. 29, 2006, the lunar standstill year, the moon was -29.33 (I know...but it must be decimal points that aren't figured in on the 28.5 or?) and +27.45. Closest to now, available from the chart, Feb. 16, 2012 show -22.11 and +20.29 for the moon.

www.astro.umass.edu...

The moon appears to travel east to west. The sun appears to travel east to west. There is a smile moon on the equator because both the sun and the moon can be overhead there. They cannot be overhead in Las Vegas. Not even mentioning latitudes like Seattle and Poland.

When you start in with the angles...I'm just going to say that in the past I never needed a ruler to verify that the moon was right for my latitude. Nitpicking doesn't make it right. There have been perfect boats in diverse latitudes that I have personally seen. We're well off the lunar standstill year now going down to minor whatever. This line of reasoning may have muddied the waters for me in 2006 but the boat moon (all the light at the bottom) has only escalated since then and this is 2012. And it's still on. In fact, it has now become a 'seasonal' event. Further, the explanations that I have read from you and others and 'official' sources all place the moon overhead at impossible latitudes. Side by side and up and down are 2-dimensional configurations.

reply to post by luxordelphi

There is a smile moon on the equator because both the sun and the moon can be overhead there. They cannot be overhead in Las Vegas.

No. "Overhead" is irrelevant. The Moon doesn't set when it is overhead.
There can be a smile moon whenever the ecliptic is nearly perpendicular to the horizon near moonset. It happens frequently near the equator and less frequently the further from the equator you go. The same effect occurs for the other situation, a "vertical" Moon. Near the poles it is a regular occurance, as you move toward the equator it becomes less common, at the equator it never happens.

reply to post by Phage

No. "Overhead" is irrelevant.

No. Overhead is all that is relevant because it means that the ecliptic goes overhead at the observers' latitude.

The Moon doesn't set when it is overhead.

Duh!!!

There can be a smile moon whenever the ecliptic is nearly perpendicular to the horizon near moonset.

Yes.

It happens frequently near the equator and less frequently the further from the equator you go.

No. Recently it happens more and more frequently at diverse latitudes.

The same effect occurs for the other situation, a "vertical" Moon. Near the poles it is a regular occurance, as you move toward the equator it becomes less common, at the equator it never happens.

Have seen many moons from 45 degrees north latitude and they were all within degrees of vertical. So gonna say no to that one too.

reply to post by luxordelphi

Have seen many moons from 45 degrees north latitude and they were all within degrees of vertical. So gonna say no to that one too.

Yes.
Just as the boat moon is in within degrees of being perfectly horizontal.
Same situation. Rotated 90º. Just like the difference between the equator and the poles.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by luxordelphi

 

Have seen many moons from 45 degrees north latitude and they were all within degrees of vertical. So gonna say no to that one too.

Yes.
Just as the boat moon is in within degrees of being perfectly horizontal.
Same situation. Rotated 90º. Just like the difference between the equator and the poles.

edit on 2/29/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

No. Las Vegas and assorted other latitudes are not even close to the equator. Never used to have to get out a ruler to verify where I was. The equator is at 0 degrees. Las Vegas is at 36 degrees north. It is much much closer to 45 degrees north than it is to the equator. What it needs is a proper tilt as in days of yore.

reply to post by luxordelphi

The equator is at 0 degrees. Las Vegas is at 36 degrees north. It is much much closer to 45 degrees north than it is to the equator.

You are not supporting your own argument.

Have seen many moons from 45 degrees north latitude and they were all within degrees of vertical.

45º north latitude is farther from the north pole than Las Vegas is from the Equator.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
The rest of your post...it's not a 2-dimensional world. The sun and the moon follow the ecliptic in the sky with variances as we have discussed. The sun is never (was never) overhead in Las Vegas because Las Vegas is at 36 degrees north latitude and the sun can only go (used to go) as far north as 23.5 degrees. The moon is never (was never) overhead in Las Vegas because the moon can only go (used to go) as far north as 28.5 degrees.

So now you're acknowledging what we've been explaining on several pages of many of Cherub's threads, yet your rebuttal of those simple facts is to go on about the moon/ecliptic not going directly overhead in Las Vegas...yet the picture Phage reposted that originally came from Cherub on page 1 of this thread clearly shows that the moon was tilted at 17 degrees and not perfectly horizontal. Las Vegas is around 36 degrees north, which would put the path of the ecliptic as being directly overhead at approximately 19 degrees north at the time the picture was taken. That's well within the normal range and consistent with that picture being one that Cherub took earlier in 2011.

When you start in with the angles...I'm just going to say that in the past I never needed a ruler to verify that the moon was right for my latitude. Nitpicking doesn't make it right. There have been perfect boats in diverse latitudes that I have personally seen. We're well off the lunar standstill year now going down to minor whatever. This line of reasoning may have muddied the waters for me in 2006 but the boat moon (all the light at the bottom) has only escalated since then and this is 2012. And it's still on. In fact, it has now become a 'seasonal' event. Further, the explanations that I have read from you and others and 'official' sources all place the moon overhead at impossible latitudes. Side by side and up and down are 2-dimensional configurations.

The human eye and average perception is no where near a precise instrument of measurement. You yourself had claimed that the 17 degree image was a perfect boat originally. So given that margin of error, I have no doubt that you may have believed that the crescent was perfectly horizontal from diverse latitudes. The question there is, what measure of angle do you consider 'perfect'? If it goes as far as 20 degrees, then that covers the majority of the United States for a fairly large portion of the winter months.

Vegas is at 36 degrees north and if you look on Wikipedia they have a nice red line through the map that is the line of the 40th parallel north.

40 Degrees North

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by luxordelphi

 

The equator is at 0 degrees. Las Vegas is at 36 degrees north. It is much much closer to 45 degrees north than it is to the equator.

You are not supporting your own argument.

Have seen many moons from 45 degrees north latitude and they were all within degrees of vertical.

45º north latitude is farther from the north pole than Las Vegas is from the Equator.

edit on 2/29/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

At 45 degrees north latitude the moon was NEVER a smile. NEVER. In fact it was always within a few degrees of vertical (as opposed to horizontal - a smile). Your comment on how it looks that way at the poles - vertical - I have not experienced. I have experienced what you say happens with the moon at the poles, at 45 degrees north latitude consistently and continually. At 36 degrees north latitude or whatever Los Angeles is, the moon was always tilted from vertical but NEVER EVER a smile or even close to a smile or even a slightly tipped smile. No rulers were ever necessary. Because Las Vegas is closer to 45 degrees north latitude than it is to the equator, by miles and miles.

Hope this clears it up - if not, I'll have to go through the tedium of posting pictures - although I may still have some in the bin. I'll see what I can do.

My argument has not varied and is and remains that a smile moon in Las Vegas and in other more northern and diverse latitudes is not possible unless the moon is overhead in those latitudes. Which means that the ecliptic would be overhead.

Originally posted by luxordelphi

At 45 degrees north latitude the moon was NEVER a smile. NEVER.

Your entire argument has nothing to do with science or astronomy. Rather, it is based ENTIRELY on your observation and memory.

If you can't even entertain the possibility that your observation and memory can be wrong, then that makes you arrogant, in addition to ignorant.

FACT.

reply to post by Phage


Here's the boat moon in Kansas. (smile moon, horned moon, wet moon, boat moon, Cheshire moon, horizontal moon)



science.nasa.gov...

Here's the vertical moon (the one you said is at the poles) in Kansas.



www.flickr.com...

Oh, and btb, Kansas is not on the equator either. Kansas is much much closer to 45 degrees north latitude than it is to 0 degrees at the equator. So, if I'm correct, you're basically saying that you can see any kind of a tilt on the moon anywhere on earth at any time? And that this has always gone on.

Also...Kansas is not at the poles - just to be clear.

The top photo is from March. The bottom from September.

Capiche?

reply to post by luxordelphi

The boat is within degrees of horizontal. The vertical Moon is within degrees of vertical.
Both are normal.

reply to post by luxordelphi


Sorry that any one person could be so deluded, and so wrong:

At 45 degrees north latitude the moon was NEVER a smile. NEVER.

Here is a nice blog from 2003....by someone in Utah. Park City, Utah, is at just above 40° North Latitude....only a bit more North than where you are -- the entire state of Utah is above and below that, and Park City is in the upper third.

The Photos: Report for 2003-08-01

Here is the (very large) photo:



The photo credit actually says it was taken in....2000!!

This shot of the crescent moon was taken during the winter of 2000 by Don Brown.

Here is a website showing the waxing crescent Moon from Ulaanbataar, Mongolia!! (Did you look up the ancient Chinese astronomers, yet, and what they had to say about it???)

Ulaanbaatar (or, sometmes spelled Ulaan Baatar) is at....now get ready for this!!! 48° North Latitude!

SATURDAY, DECEMBER 19, 2009

Mongolia | Zaisan Tolgoi | Winter Solstice | 2009-2012

You are no doubt aware that the Winter Solstice is rapidly approaching. Here in Ulaan Baatar the solstice occurs at exactly 1:47 am on the 22nd....

A blog from a guy who lives in North Baltimore Coutny, Maryland, from 2010. He is at about 40° North.

The dates are in descending order, from the top of the page....one from March, 2010 is nearer the bottom. Below it is another, from 2009.


Here is a website (that you have probably been shown, and have ignored) from 2002:

Question:

Why is the crescent Moon sometimes lit on the bottom?

Answer:

A careful observer will certainly notice that over the period of months, the crescent of the Moon does indeed seem to go from being lit on the "bottom" of the Moon to being lit on the side of the Moon. So what is happening to make the Moon look different? It is all a result of the Moon's orbit around the Earth, and the Earth's orbit around the Sun. And exactly when you see the Moon in the shape of a 'U' (lit on the bottom) rather than a backward 'C' (lit on the side) depends on what latitude you are at. But the explanation is the same regardless of when you see it from your location.

Link to an image, from Michigan, in 2002:



Text about it:

A superb image of a waning crescent Moon, in the early morning eastern sky of 4 September 2002. Note also the portion of the Moon lit up by Earthshine (sunlight reflected off the Earth and then onto the surface of the Moon). Also visible in the lower right corner of this photo are Jupiter, its 4 Galileo moons, and the Beehive star cluster.

From Physics 104: Introduction to the Sky & Solar System....Spring 2002 - it's been a while since I've taught this one

Location:

Physics Department Office: 1120 Everett Tower
Physics Department phone: 387-4940
Western Michigan University

(Go to the Web Page, and email the nice professor there at Western Michigan U. Or, phone him.)

reply to post by luxordelphi


Your second (bottom) photo from Kansas was taken in September.

It has been repeatedly shown to you that the angle will vary month-to-month-to-month, season-by-season.

A "smile" Moon, "boat" Moon, "cradled" Moon will be seen in the Northern Hemisphere, in Winter through Spring.

The science of astronomy is quite clear on this. Call the professor in Michigan!!

Originally posted by ColAngus
The top photo is from March. The bottom from September.

Capiche?

Colonel: I believe you were elsewhere engaged when I decisively and eloquently showed that the moon is not seasonal.