*Updated* The Masonic Pysche with Personal E-Mail from Author

So, how far in-depth into masonry are masons allowed to speak of? Where is the line drawn and is that open to personal interpretation?

you guys know there are people that are gonna come here and try and say this stuff is fake right!?

ohh vileness.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Anti Masonic Drivel
There are many misunderstandings among the general public about the organization called Freemasonry (also known as "Masonry" or "the Lodge"). While much of the public thinks that Freemasonry is just a fraternity, Masonry has been judged by every Christian church that has studied it to be a religion that is incompatible with Christianity. The Lodge religion espouses a belief in God as the Grand Architect of the Universe, the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the body. Masonry also believes that man can achieve salvation by his good works, independent of God's gift of grace. However, Masonry does not require its members to believe in Jesus Christ or His Church.

Freemasonry is also controversial because it keeps its religious and moral teachings secret behind the Lodge doors. To that end, Masonry requires its members to swear to God an oath that they will never reveal the teachings of the Lodge lest they be worthy of death. Masonry also conditions its members to believe that Masonry is just a fraternity. By God's grace, more and more men are leaving the Lodge each year and revealing the incompatibilities between Freemasonry and the Christian faith.

Refuted here.

And here.

Here too.

Types of objectors.

Since you have no personal experience to draw on, nor any other source than whichever anti-Masonic site you are currently visiting to draw upon, I will simply follow suit, and refute via proxy.

Those websites could fill a small book, more details could of been used there but it doesn't say anything but point you away from the fact that the catholic church says it is a religeon that doesn't mix well with them.

OK it could be a large religeon with different sects but the rituals just make it like a large cult / religeon.

I barely ever post or try to argue with freemasons because it's like arguing with a brick wall. they just dump a bunch of information to you and say read that and get back to me, well theres enough [dis]info there to read for weeks. i get bored at all the pointless posts that don't contribute anything but just try to disprove people and who they are.
No, not everyone on here is going to be an accepted scientist, deal with it. this is a place where the average person can share their interests and shouldn't have to be flooded with so much [dis]info that it turns them off from the subject.

ok sorry. /rant. just wanted to get that out.

p.s. i'm just waiting for the onslaught of masons now to flood this thread with pointless posts that get the original discussion no where.

Wow I thought I was the only one who noticed this kind of stuff. I used to frequent the secret societies board but every discussion was immediatly flooded by 50 million masons all spouting the same rhetoric and doing exactly what you all are describing. Attacking the character of anybody that disagreed with them. Apparently anyone that is not a fan of masons is automatically deamed "uncredible". I was starting to think everyone had been fooled by them. But I guess you guys just gave up trying to argue with the kings of disinformation, I myself wont even bother. Good Job



Since Im here...anybody know the siginificance of a 32-33 (cant rememeber which) degree mason placing a penny in your hand when questioned? I was told Id understand later...but I dont

I still wonder if freemasons really pretend to die in a coffin then pretend to be brought back to life again?? Someone on here said no, but if you cannot reveal the secrets of the rituals you can't exactly say YES either can you??

I have noticed the attack of character rather then the subject matter at hand for a while now. Politicians do the same, you can see it clear as day when you are aware of it.

Great stuff from the masnoic oath BTW Jahmun. The bit about having your bowels dismembered and burnt to ashes unsettles me even more then the picture of the topless guy wearing a blindfold with his trouserleg rolled up.

Well, I was talking to a Mason and apparently there is a death and rebirthing ceremony for the Master Mason degree. He also told me that when he took his oath, he spoke words similar to the ones in my first post while blindfolded. Then, after he took his blindfold off he saw that there was a sword pointed at his chest and a noose around his neck the entire oath.

So they do point the sword at the chest. Maybe not to draw blood but I bet that sword is pointing towards the heart.

Jahmun, ask your freemason friend if they drink wine from the upside down human skull during the 33rd degree Initiation. Then a man in a skeleton suit comes and hugs him......??????????

As stated in Jim Shaw's book: The Deadly Deception.

Who said the Vatican wasnt a Masonic Lodge?

"Go ye, then, into all the world and take possession of all lands in the name of the Pope. He who will not accept him as the Vicar of Jesus and his Vice-Regent on earth, let him be accursed and exterminated."

Please Brazen Serpents of the Hiram Abiff fez...please dont sacrafice me in front of that rediculous owl named Molach,,,i beg of you.




www.ianpaisley.org...

"Money Penny, cancel all my appointments for the next 2 days, Im having dinner with Hans Kolvenbach. They are flying me out on the Gulfstream 450"

I just updated the thread with a message from the author, I will write it here again for those who have been keeping track thus far.

"As my webpage indicates, I was a 32nd degree Mason and Shriner. I also
received the Proficiency Card for being an expert in Masonic ritual. I have
certificates, pictures, documents, rituals, letters, etc. to prove it. But
that really doesn't matter. What matters is what I and many Christian men
are saying about Freemasonry. Masons love to attack the messenger, but they
never want to address the message. This is because their Freemasonry is
indefensible from a Christian perspective. All this will be coming soon in
my book about Freemasony which will be out by the end of the year.

God bless.

John Salza"

Originally posted by Jamuhn
This is because their Freemasonry is indefensible from a Christian perspective. All this will be coming soon in my book about Freemasony which will be out by the end of the year.

God bless.

John Salza"

I see 2 problems with Salza.

The first being that he purports to represent the Christian perspective. Christians are unable to even agree between each Christian sect on what is the Christian perspective, so Salza annointing himself as the spokespersons for the Christian perspective is rather meaningless.

The second being is that he is that he is out to sell a book so he wants to create controversy in order to publicize his book so that people will purchase his book. Let me know when you have sent your money along to Mr. Salza and have actually have read his book. I suspect that after reading Salza's book that you would find his position so lacking in substance that you would be embarassed to quote him for any purpose. I would be most surprised if you actually sent your good money to this clown.

Also Jamuhn, are you representing that you are a Christian? If not it seems rather peculiar for you to be quoting a Christian of some unknown fundamentalist sect for the purpose of discrediting Freemasonry.

AdditionallyJamuhn, I do not feel this is your best work. Typically I find your posts to be well thought out and on the mark, however this thread is little more than trivial taunting and generally off target by virtue of being started in the NWO grouping of threads as I have seen no attempt to connect Freemasonsry and the NWO.

Note for the thematrix, as I recall you sent me a private message applauding my criticism of Christian fundamentalism for which I received a warn from a Mod. Have you suddenly changed your mind and joined the fundamentalist ranks? Just curious.
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Originally posted by project_pisces
Who said the Vatican wasnt a Masonic Lodge?

Freemasonry accepts men from all religions. Does the Vatican do likewise?

*sigh*

Dont deny ignorance. Promote it why don't you.

DF1, Leveller.

does a man in a skeleton suit hug the 33rd degree mason at any point within washington?

Do 33rd degree masons leave through a different door then everyone else in the washington grand temple place?

Also Jamuhn, are you representing that you are a Christian? If not it seems rather peculiar for you to be quoting a Christian of some unknown fundamentalist sect for the purpose of discrediting Freemasonry.

ARRRRGHHHH, I knew this would happen.

Look, this is not about christianity, please ignore all Christian references.
What's most important is what I first presented. All subsequent to that was to affirm the validity of this John Salza guy, nothing more. I figured this would reduce attacks on the author and myself, but apparently I was wrong...

Yea, df1 I tried getting someone to change it, I didn't mean to post in this forum, but the colors look so similar, anyway, still waiting for that to happen.

But the point is the masonic oath and what must be done to uphold that oath.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
DF1, Leveller.

does a man in a skeleton suit hug the 33rd degree mason at any point within washington?

Do 33rd degree masons leave through a different door then everyone else in the washington grand temple place?

Wouldn't have a clue, dude.
I'm English.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I figured this would reduce attacks on the author and myself, but apparently I was wrong...

Oh come on, you know that I am not attacking you. And you know that I have encouraged to post on the subject of Freemasonry with the knowledge that we disagree. My encouragement was not for the purpose of attacking you. However I was sincerely surprised at the christian tone of your posts including the ones from the catholic source which started this thread.

As for attacks on the author (salza), IMHO religious criticisms are fair game as his position is based entirely on his fundamentalist religious beliefs, regardless of when he had his epiphany. It should come as no surprise that his intolerance would be viewed as an issue.
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me


As to my presence during the ATS Adventure in Michigan, the only person who objected to my attendance was All Seeing Eye, and he demonstrated the same lack of internet bravado that you would have if you had attended. The rest of the attendees seemed quite comfortable with me (Ycon was a mystery, she didn't say two words to anybody), and I would say the u2u traffic I have received from them since would indicate your perception is incorrect.

It was good wine.

Now that the waters have subsided, I will comment on this passage.

I have not spoken to Mirthful sinse the get together. I did comment to others that I didnt really like all the mason drival that Mirthful was ummm,errrrr, communicating to everyone. Mirthful, you wouldnt let any other subject enter the stage. You commanded the entire evening from the passing out of the little gray key ring novilty, to the moment you left.

I was comfortable with you there, just not the masonic hype. I felt as though I was being recruited, the whole night.

As for your comments about bravado, If you only knew. Walk a mile in my shoes before you go judging people. You asked no questions of us, you showed no sincere interest in learning who we were. You just rambled on about how much money you would give to a brother mason in need. I tried to ask you a few questions, but the subject always returned to masonry.

At least I have the bravado, to say, you lost out that night. You could have gotten to know some really great people. You chose your brotherhood over us. Maybe the reason Ycon was such a mystery, was because you cared not, to ask her. Is everyone suppose to approach you and introduce themselves as though they are your subjects? Did you even try to strike up a conversation with her? Or is that below your station in life! Or maybe seeing how she was a woman it would be a wast of your time to spend any time with her, seeing how she couldnt join your frat!

The wine gobblet, was a nice "Grail" touch.

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I figured this would reduce attacks on the author and myself, but apparently I was wrong...

Oh come on, you know that I am not attacking you. And you know that I have encouraged to post on the subject of Freemasonry with the knowledge that we disagree. My encouragement was not for the purpose of attacking you. However I was sincerely surprised at the christian tone of your posts including the ones from the catholic source which started this thread.

As for attacks on the author (salza), IMHO religious criticisms are fair game as his position is based entirely on his fundamentalist religious beliefs, regardless of when he had his epiphany. It should come as no surprise that his intolerance would be viewed as an issue.
.

I know df1, I made my response at work and didn't have time to find a better word, which would have been 'question.'

Although the context of Salza's words were christian (though not all), the context of this thread is not a christian context, but much more broad.

But, I am still wondering how many masons have broken their oaths by saying certain things on the board. And if they haven't I have attempted to answer why they haven't. Though I'd appreciate more on-topic responses about 'the masonic pysche.'

Originally posted by Jamuhn
But, I am still wondering how many masons have broken their oaths by saying certain things on the board.

Of the ATS members that are Masons I would expect that few if any have violated the oath they took in their particular Lodge or jurisdiction. The fact that you are left wondering is the evidence that nothing has been divulged. If folks are still guessing, the secrets are safe.

And if they haven't I have attempted to answer why they haven't. Though I'd appreciate more on-topic responses about 'the masonic pysche.'

I accept that you posted in the NWO topic group by accident, however it being posted here does have an influence. Perhaps more Masons visit "secret societies" topic group than visit the NWO topic group. I'd expect that you would receive even fewer posts had it been posted under predictions.
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Although the context of Salza's words were christian (though not all), the context of this thread is not a christian context, but much more broad.

Let me hop into the argument for a sec:

I've never heard of Salza, but will assume momentarily that he's telling the truth about being a former Mason. Even if this is true, we can easily see by his website that he has come under the influence of the Roman Catholic Church, which has waged relentless war against Freemasonry and other free thinking societies since the Inquisition.

It's also ironic that he accuses Masons of using fallacious ad hominem, while he himself engages in ad hominem repeatedly. I don't know about you guys, but where I'm from, this is called being a hypocrite. First someone posts some garbage about Masons being satanists or worshipping owl gods or whatever; a Mason responds by calling the accusation ridiculous, then an opponent of Masonry accuses the Mason defending the fraternity of using ad hominem. Surely I'm not the only one who sees the comedy in this "logic".

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
So...have any masons broken their oaths by speaking about Masonry on ATS?

No.

As mentioned earlier in the Secret Societies forum, the only things in Masonry that a Mason is required to keep secret are the modes of recognition. These are the handshakes and signals that Masons use to identify each other.

Everything else about Masonry, from ritual to history to symbolism to philosophy, has been written about by Masonic authors for 300 years.

Fiat Lvx.