Jesus is NOT a copy from Pagan religions! Those are lies! Do research and do not believe!

Christian research with only Christian videos, produced by Christians, with documentation by Christians, written by Christians. Well...mostly anyway.

Of COURSE all of your proof is correct...if your a CHRISTIAN.

It'd be more convincing if it all could be backed up 110% by a multitude of various religious sources of DIFFERENT faiths.

Ive done research, and I do not believe as in your title. I do not believe....you.

(And this from a CHRISTIAN yet. Me!)

reply to post by Nkinga

I was just going by the fact that millions (probably billions) celebrate the 25th as the official birthday as endorsed by the church. I cannot show you as I do not possess a bible. Nor do I celebrate Christmas I am a baptised roman catholic though.

reply to post by isyeye


well...I'm glad you would count it as a virgin birth...but as a midwife..I would tell you that with Osiris being alive..and a gold penis being made..in which Isis apparently had sexual intercourse with it, thereby getting pregnant, I can tell you medically...she would not be considered a virgin, nor her pregnancy a virgin birth in any way what so ever. Let me put it this way...with medical technology today, a man's penis can be cut off...and if brought in, in the right amount of time, can be reattached..and small miracle it would be..working...functioning..if a women were then to have sex with that said reattached penis and it was her first time of intercourse and became pregnant..she would not be considered in anyway a "virgin birth"

I think its important to take "opinions" out. In this particular case...Whether Jesus existed or not could be even with all the evidence, it still could be an "opinion" but determining what is or is not a virgin birth, has no opinion what so ever. Its clear cut and right down to facts. A woman...who has no sexual intercourse at all is considered a virgin. In today's world..this would not be enough of course, because given all the medical technology, we know that a woman can in fact become pregnant without sexual intercourse. So, by today's standards and terminology...a Virgin birth would be classified as a woman who has not had sexual intercourse at all, nor come in contact with any male sperm in anyway what so ever...but is found to be pregnant anyway. Now...this would be further able to be proven when the child is born and a DNA testing is done..after all...with no male sperm..... only the mother's DNA should be visible. We of course are not talking about today's world however..we are talking about 1-4 B.C. ..... in which a virgin birth would have been a women who has had no sexual intercourse...at all. Isis..did have sexual intercourse...with her husband and a penis attached to him. Not a virgin, therefore..not a virgin pregnancy, and therefore, not a virgin birth. Opinions cannot work here.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by kdog1982

 

Start with what?
It's a historical fact, and the ancients did not find the concept of the gods having affairs with mortals in their mythology and world-view as unusual at all.
Ironically the Christians were first considered atheists because they refused to accept the divinity of the king (which must have seemed blasphemous back then). In fact, if the Internet existed in ancient times, even sites like this would probably ban you for just saying the king isn't semi-divine, because it would have caused major disruption.

One suspects that some were in on the schemes, and that the belief in semi-divinity was used to cover-up inconvenient pregnancies, or to mythologize aspects of state power. Under Christianity kings were no longer semi-divine, but they still ruled by divine right. Theorists like David Icke could argue that the "gods" were indeed aliens, especially when one considers the myths of women impregnated by divine "serpents" (see my link above). Whatever the case, they probably had clear characteristics that made a person semi-divine, such as extraordinary wisdom, or powers of conquest, while others just assumed those characteristics by claiming to be of semi-divine birth.

Unfortunately Christianity eventually banned the pagan beliefs, and destroyed or stole their temples, so if you really want to know how they saw it, you would need a time machine. They also suppressed all the rival narratives of Christ's birth. So the only faith from that region that still has a central God who was born both human and divine is Christianity (following the typical divine father/human mother pattern). They would be the best people to ask on a being that is both human and divine.

edit on 2-12-2011 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

I really find this interesting ,your words,

It's a historical fact,

Please show me the facts.
Not hearsay,but the facts.
But,it is a belief system,religion,you know.
It is based on faith,not fact.
It is for those who need faith to help them.
My belief system is in myself.
I believe and have faith in myself.
I help others believe in their selves everyday.
It was only today that my apprentice advanced to mechanic status due to me helping him with his confidence that he could do it on his own.
It is about people helping people.
It is about people helping themselves.
Not god's will,but by their own will.
Religion was created by men who wanted to control people like a herd of sheep.
Ever wonder were the term the good Shepard came from?
Be,as it will,a majority of people will follow as they are not capable of free thought,but must be guided.

reply to post by arpgme


You know how the whole world in 2001 was glued to the tv as the world trade towers fell??? and all those people who were actually standing right in the street as the 2 planes hit the towers and then..the towers fell. Well....everyone saw the same thing...right? all at the same time? yet, everyone has a little bit different story to tell on what happened. We all saw it...we all watched it..all at the exact same time...but my retelling, might be totally different than your retelling...doesn't mean the towers didn't fall..does it?

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by LightSpeedDriver

 

Not true. Bible does not say he was born on Decmber 25th, nor does it say that there were 3 wise men, only that three gifts were brought...

Whoa.... if my memory serves me correctly the Bible does speak of the 3 wise men. They are described as Shepherds who were in a field tending to their flock when an Angel appeared to and told them to travel to Bethleham and that a Savior had been born.

Actually sir before I respond fully I have 4 slight request.....

1)Can you please provide the Tax records for Joseph of Nazarene, descendant of david...

The jews are known for keeping very meticulous records and I would think they would keep a copy of his records...

the early church would have stolen it to prove yes... jesus was born...

Its real simple the tax records would prove jesus was there...


2)Can we agree on definitions before we have this conversation... As a Pagan whose main ideals where co-opted to fleece the natives I want to make sure I leave ambiguities with this...

Pagan-
Christian-
Jesus-
Judaism-
Copy- ( as in XXXXXXX??????)


Standards of proof-
Acceptable authorities-

and

Mormon
Southern baptist
Baptist
Pentecostal-
Jew
Islam
Seventh Day Adventist
Catholic
Orthodox
Santeria
Lutheran
Assembly of god
church of england

Which bibile are we using as the basis of the discussion


and 3rd

What do you say Jesus is accused of being a copy of...

Is he a created deity to control the slaves....
a Mishmash of other gods...

An old god in sheep's clothing


4)I thought Jesus was born to a woman of the flesh...
I also thought every child born was born a sinner

So Jesus is either a sinner
or the bible lied?

(the last question is theology in general but not the main point but it has its purpose to be asked)

reply to post by ripcontrol

Why you I ought to double star you
not many recognise that Mithra was a soldiers god
can't have THAT for the sheeple

reply to post by Danbones


Mithra became a warrior-god, but he didn't begin that way, but true... most people don't know that about him.

reply to post by kdog1982

Facts for what exactly once again?
That semi-divine births were considered common in the ancient world?
I repeat my link, which is not hearsay, but has direct quotes from ancient texts.
www.pocm.info...

Not even Christians deny that divine father/human mother births were common in mythology and culture, they would just point to the unique aspects of their variation of the concept.
So I don't think they took the central concepts from existing paganism (that would have been ridiculously obvious in any case for anything that presents itself as radically new). However some conventions were so taken for granted and necessary that they were indispensable at the time, so paganism created a certain milieu that required a semi-divine origin for Christ, and some believers would argue that Christ in fact knew this when He organized His birth. Other Jewish Messiahs didn't have a divine origin, and they are pretty much forgotten.

As for your personal outlook on faith, I think it very beautiful.

reply to post by arpgme


I hate these debates.

You either come to know Jesus by reading his character, and sometimes, as in my case, such "knowing of" him might take a second look and a re-investigation free from any sort of contemptous bias, or you do not, but to come to know him is to love him.

Arguing ABOUT him is just stupid however, and isn't likely to win any converts.

Jesus - you ROCK and I love you and the one who sent you from above, and I'm so glad you were and remain you, because if it was me alone I fear I would have screwed everything up royally.

I do humbly ask however, that people might give the NT and in particular the red text (sayings of Jesus) a second read, with new eyes and a beginners mind. The "heretical" Gnostic Gospel of Thomas is also excellent, and I'm sure in part wholly authentic to Jesus' teachings, who was a master of "the wisdom of the ages".

Like C.S. Lewis concluded, there's something there, even if the surface of it is layered over by myth.

Best Regards,

NAM
Evolutionary Christian Mystic

reply to post by arpgme

You can trace the development of all modern religious beliefs and practices all the way back to ancient animal totem and ancestor worship.
There's enough data out there to fill a cargo ship so i'm not gonna bother putting it all on here.

The bottom line is that if you've already made up your mind about your religious leanings then your never gonna accept anything else short of a massive crisis of faith forceing you to.

And you know what, It doesn't matter anyway. The stories and histories of these things aren't the point, the way in which a message is translated doesn't really matter, all that matters is that the core message gets through.

It's irrelevant which version you want to believe, all that's important is that it works for you.

It's like not seeing the forest for the trees or maybe more accuratly not seeing the trees for the forest.

Jesus was this, jesus was that... who cares, all that really matters is:
WHAT WAS JESUS TRYING TO SAY TO YOU.

That's all that matters. The message not the personage.

It's kinda one of the intentional hurdles to growth, think about it.

Like the guy posted above this one said:

"Like C.S. Lewis concluded, there's something there, even if the surface of it is layered over by myth."

So very true, ignore the mythology it was only ever a dual concept, on the one hand it was intended as a delivery system or a kind of medium for the info and i strongly suspect that from the 'Other' side (call it god/allah/the creator/whatever) it's another means to make the learning process effective by throwing up challenges. You have to work hard for your own growth, it won't just magically happen while you sit and wait, that would be the idle-hands reference the bible loves so much.

Read between the lines.

The good things in life are free but not effort free.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by britelite1971
Pretty obvious isn't it?? Where is your proof that Jesus didn't exist and that He's not the Messiah?

Real - legitimate - historical fact.

But that is NOT the subject of this thread. Perhaps you should try addressing the title.

Actually, I believe that you told me to prove that Jesus did exist before I wrote the above. So you know, you say prove He did, I say prove He didn't.....kind like we're third graders isn't it? Hmmm.....historical "fact". That is completely new to me. I don't remember seeing that Jesus was a myth in the history books. Got a source for that?

Originally posted by GmoS719

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by arpgme

 

Sorry I don't count you tube videos made by Christians as proof.....
Not bothering with this thread cos at the end of the day I don't believe any of it so....

edit on 2-12-2011 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

So he lays evidence on the table and you walk away lol.
Typical of A LOT of people.

Actually, OP has grossly oversimplified the positions of those who have done extraordinary research showing that Jesus is in fact a myth. In his/her oversimplification, he is then able to provide a simple answer to all the conclusions of researchers who state Jesus did not exist. That is basically intellectual dishonesty and Christians are well practiced in such deception.

I would recommend www.jesusneverexisted.com for those still burdened by the oppression of Christianity (and any other religion, for that matter).

Besides, I can prove the non-existence of Jesus, just as billions of this world's inhabitants can. His absence from the pain and suffering of this planet is stunning and is all the proof we need that he did not exist, never has and never will. He is compared to a "father", yet, if an earthly father were that absent from the lives of his children he would be considered a deadbeat dad. As well he should. With this so-called god Jesus, we are expected to believe that he loves us, cares for us, protects us, etc yet the world is full of untold horrors. Give me and the rest of us a break. Do your "witnessing" elsewhere. I don't believe this site's purpose is for selling anything, particularly a primitive and ignorant concept as Jesus.

It is amazing how people bash and bash and bash christians constantly.Most of the people just laugh or do some kind of nonsense smirk at evidence that Jesus existed.Or they make don't realize tradtonal stuff that grew out of other beliefs. or are to dumb to read and would rather mock christians.Or you get the old bashing of words like Buy-Bull,Xmas,Fudanemtalist chrsitians are all evil,Zionist want to take over the world nonsense.Christians hate all homosexuals nonsense,TBN stealing everyones money nonsense,all though I do not trust some of the TBN preachers.The bashing goes on and on and on and is blantant ignorance.

Some of these atheist are down right ignorant as anti-semites are towards jews.Only they are that way towards christians.

reply to post by halfoldman


Be,as it will.
Thank you,but as far as this discussion goes,I can not go on.
Peace,
K

Personally, I subscribe to what I call "the quantum holographic cosmological Christ". I know I know, but if you only knew, if you only had an open mind, the implications are breathtaking and would blow you away.

It has been said (by another ATS member) that "the Christ-mind is like an empty Buddha bowl first filled with Hermes."

It's really all about us, and just who and what WE ourselves really are, in the grand scheme of things right across the board (breadth and depth of all being and becoming).

Put more simply, when we shave away everything within the human domain and condition which is unreasonable, irrational, ridiculous and absurd (and therefore insane) all we're left with is the mind and the heart of Christ as the logos (who's root is logic).

He is what the human being is meant to be, by design and via an eternal creative evolutionary process.

His is the son of man, and I am the bride of Christ (and no that doesn't make me gay).

And here's the test - understand thoroughly, just one of his significant parables or sermons, and bear in mind that all the even deeper, esoteric initiation info (from Jesus through his desciples) is largely hidden, obscured or removed from the text, to it's core, and you will know just like I do, that you needn't go anywhere else for the ultimate form of gnosis or understanding and comprehension. He was, and is (through the spirit) THE ONE, the great one, and best of all, he was one of us and one among us, present with us in the flesh. I undertstand why some people might go to great lengths to deny his historical existence as a character and a living human being, given the very thing he contends directly with, which does not want to encounter him as a living reality..! It's pretty funny when you really come to think of it..

"I AM the way, the truth, the life and the reality."

Originally posted by Jobeycool
It is amazing how people bash and bash and bash christians constantly.Most of the people just laugh or do some kind of nonsense smirk at evidence that Jesus existed.Or they make don't realize tradtonal stuff that grew out of other beliefs. or are to dumb to read and would rather mock christians.Or you get the old bashing of words like Buy-Bull,Xmas,Fudanemtalist chrsitians are all evil,Zionist want to take over the world nonsense.Christians hate all homosexuals nonsense,TBN stealing everyones money nonsense,all though I do not trust some of the TBN preachers.The bashing goes on and on and on and is blantant ignorance.

You open the door to being bashed when you try to push that ridiculous and primitive belief on others. What really ticks people off is the "believe this or burn in hell forever". There's nothing more irritating than religious intolerance and the superiority that Christians feel they have over non-Christians. Your arrogance is like a sword. And you know what happens when people live by the sword...

Originally posted by Jobeycool
It is amazing how people bash and bash and bash christians constantly.

BRING IT ON!

With some of us, they have no idea who they're dealing with!

But that they fear this, is what's ridiculous and absurd.. or what they think they already KNOW, that's what's crazy, the presumptuousness, about what for them is an unknown unknown or something they don't even know and don't know they don't know, but presume to already know, in this case that there was no Jesus.

Meanwhile, we have his living character, both in the textual criticism of the new testament, and where appropriated or fully "grokked", right here and now, in those who know or who have gnosis and understanding.

To the hard hearted anti-Christian atheists someone like me is a real terror.