Jesus is NOT a copy from Pagan religions! Those are lies! Do research and do not believe!

reply to post by Garkiniss


Okay, so even if you take the Quran out of the equation, what about the other historical references?

reply to post by britelite1971


You mentioned the dates:

AD 37 - AD 97 - AD 55-120 - AD 117-138 - AD 221

None of those sources came about during Christ's life. They all came after Christianity had already been established (early Christian period c.33–325). Of course there would be mentions of Jesus then. Find something that mentions him during his lifetime (BCE 7-2 through BCE 30-36), and as was mentioned the Qur'an is wayyyy too new a of religion to be considered a worthwhile source for information, especially in regards to the history of Christ.

Originally posted by SuperTripps

Originally posted by Garkiniss
Everything one needs to know about Mithra/Mithras and his origins.

Link

in other words, one must be braindead not to see the same ole traits being bestowed upon all of our "gods"


Mithra has the following in common with the Jesus character:
Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita
The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master
He had 12 companions or "disciples"
He performed miracles
As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace


Mithra ascending to heaven in his solar cart,
with sun symbol

He ascended to heaven
Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah
Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him"
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ
His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper"
Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers"
Mithraism emphasized baptism.

Perhaps this is not sinking in.

There is no proof of any kind from that time that makes those claims about Mithra or Mithraism.

reply to post by britelite1971


Okay I'm checking out each one of these so it may take some time. I will let you know that I do not consider one Bible to be proof of another Bible I am referring to the Koran. Give me some time to look some of this up and I will get back to you. One problem I see though is that none of these people lived at the same time as Christ was supposed to.

This came up already as I started to do research on Josephus.


other than James, Josephus names none of the first-century founders of the Church such as St. Paul, St. Peter or any of the Twelve Apostles, nor does he refer to basic Christian doctrines, such as the Virgin Birth, the Incarnation or the Atonement, but these generally developed after the time of Josephus. William Whiston, a 19th-century scholar, suggested that Josephus may have been an Ebionite Christian.

So far this is not a good start on finding proof in favor of the Bible.

josephus on jesus

reply to post by ripcontrol


Again the Christians ignore simple questions....

Please I asked for definitions before I myself added in....


and...

Things like...

Christmas tree's
Wedding Rings
Halloween






and remember ... Demons are angels too....



in closing I thought this would be the best place to add this...





I await the definitions first so we may discuss in friendship and freedom....

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
reply to post by britelite1971

 

You mentioned the dates:

AD 37 - AD 97 - AD 55-120 - AD 117-138 - AD 221

None of those sources came about during Christ's life. They all came after Christianity had already been established (early Christian period c.33–325). Of course there would be mentions of Jesus then. Find something that mentions him during his lifetime (BCE 7-2 through BCE 30-36), and as was mentioned the Qur'an is wayyyy too new a of religion to be considered a worthwhile source for information, especially in regards to the history of Christ.

edit on 3-12-2011 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)

So do you regard the Quaran as a "fairytale or myth or lie" or you know all those things that people call the bible?

reply to post by ripcontrol


Don't hold your breath. We wouldn't want you to die. You can provide them with all of the ancient artwork, passed down legends, and cultures in the world, but unless it's written in a book from that time that specifically states that Mithra did all that the millions of people on earth recognize him for, they don't want to hear it. Even though most of history wasn't written in books during that time. Hell look at today. The Palestinians haven't kept track of their own history, of course that failure has likely cost them statehood, but the fact remains; not all history is chronicled. Christ himself wasn't chronicled until decades or in some cases over a century later, and every one of those accounts could be construed as hearsay. Look at Paul, who wrote 13 or more of the books in the bible, then look at where he was from... the center of Mithraic culture! No wonder Christ seems identical to Mithra. The man who wrote about him, lived in the heart of "Mithra-ville".
Even when asked to show written documentation of Jesus doing all he claimed to do that was written during his life and fail, they (many Christians) still say it is we who are wrong.
Nevermind that Mithraic artwork can be found in all of ancient Europa, Northern Africa, and Asia Minor centuries before Christ, or that all of those people tell similar stories about Mithra, about his virgin birth, and ascension, or that he is still worshipped today and his inspirations can be found in everything from coinage to the Liberty Statues of Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi. They don't want proof. They want to believe the misinterpretations of the Bible are gospel, that Mithra was created during the 70s by anti-Christian fundamentalists, and the etymology doesn't matter, what matters is what we believe the words mean now. This is their reality.

reply to post by britelite1971


I wouldn't call it a lie, as I wouldn't call Grimm's Fairytales a lie. They are moral stories passed down from generation to generation (some more archaic than others) to keep men from falling prey to their own animalistic cravings. I don't believe any of the mythological things that happened in the bible happened via divine intervention. I don't even believe the stories of Mithra, though I do recognize that they are older than the Christ.
I do, however, believe in a higher power. I do not believe that 'it' has any direct affect on us as a planetary species. I believe that evolution and intelligent design are one in the same, that we evolve through our own ingenuity and adaptiveness as do all creatures on this planet or anywhere for that matter. I do not believe in worshipping deities, nor do I think a deity (a good one at least) would require to be worshipped.
I believe in free will, and living my life morally, not judging others, and living by the golden rule, but more importantly I believe in truth, no matter how painful, mind blowing, or damaging that truth might be, because truth is a key part of the mental evolution of man. How can we ever think we'll expand beyond the limitations that currently imprison us if we can't accept truth?
The truth is Christianity is borrowed from older religions.
The truth is Christianity isn't necessary, as all followers of Christ should be practicing Judaism.
The truth is that none of that matters. What matters is that you understand the truth and know that no matter who or what came first, if you live your life as a good, moral, nonjudgmental person, that it doesn't matter what you believe. "Goodness begets goodness" is a universal way of life, and that is the truth.

reply to post by FugitiveSoul

Look at Paul, who wrote 13 or more of the books in the bible, then look at where he was from... the center of Mithraic culture! No wonder Christ seems identical to Mithra. The man who wrote about him, lived in the heart of "Mithra-ville".

If that was the case others from that time would have known? If you think about it there is no real evidence of anything substantial regarding Mithra and like i said people from that time would have known instantly. What needs to be produced is real documents.

reply to post by Malcher


They did know. They just didn't care. This wasn't an overnight thing. Many of the stories of Christ evolved over nearly 2 centuries, which is many lifetimes during that era. People accepted pagan traditions and stories into Christianity because it was what they felt was necessary for them to accept the religion. The reason they wanted to accept the religion? To protect themselves from ever aggressive Christian followers. The changes, originally, were more concessions. They got to take a little piece of "home" with them by signing up for the B.B.D. (as it was likely advertised to back in those days).
Organized religion has always fallen pray to politics and economics, Christianity is/was no different, which is why nothing in Christianity was held sacred, and why so much of the story of Christ himself was borrowed from more recognized religions.

Mithraism wasn't documented on paper, but coexisted with Christianity for a time. Back then religion was celebrated in art and through stories or songs passed down from generation to generation, until the church outlawed it. Take a look at the Venus statues. Some of these date back tens of thousands of years BC, but we all know of their significance and history through the passing of tales and customs from generation to generation. Not from some 25,000 year old book which would never exist, yet no one disputes those claims because they aren't seen as a "threat to Christianity", though I'm sure you could construe it that way if you delve into it a little; the whole "mother" deal.

The promotion of Mithraism isn't anti-Christian, it's pro-truth.

Reply to post by Malcher

There has been a great misunderstanding of Paul, which started even when he was alive, which the RCC expanded upon to placate non-Christains.

Paul is actually perfectly in line with the Scriptures of his religion.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Grimpachi


No offense.....but unlike some christians I really don't feel the need to "prove" anything to you anyhow. Do what you want with it. You can try to prove to me that Jesus didn't exist but you will get very tired trying because that's not going to happen. It was stated that there were no historical references mentioning Jesus other than the bible. I have shown that statement to be in error. If you want to spend time trying to prove their validity, be my guest.

reply to post by arpgme


Hi,

Shame that there was no evidence in the original post but I am familiar with some of the similarities and differences between mythical saviours.

Even if Jesus was not an adapted copy of previous myths there is not actually any contemporary evidence that he even existed.

Or is that wrong too?

Originally posted by Malcher
reply to post by FugitiveSoul

 

Look at Paul, who wrote 13 or more of the books in the bible, then look at where he was from... the center of Mithraic culture! No wonder Christ seems identical to Mithra. The man who wrote about him, lived in the heart of "Mithra-ville".

If that was the case others from that time would have known? If you think about it there is no real evidence of anything substantial regarding Mithra and like i said people from that time would have known instantly. What needs to be produced is real documents.

www.infidels.org...

When Christianity gained power in the fifth century, Mithraism was declared heretical and ruthlessly scourged. Before that time, Christianity and Mithraism coexisted and were undoubtedly influencial upon each other. This mingling and influence are apparent in the manner with which Christianity overtook Mithraism. The former had no trouble incorporating Mithraism's followers into its own ranks and many former mithraeums were converted to churches. Many Roman churches today, the Church of San Clemente in Rome most notably, still contain well-preserved mithraeums in their vaulted burial crypts. The lines that divided Mithraism from Christianity were understandably blurred due to this slow and steady absorption of Mithraism by Christianity during the centuries that the two existed side-by-side.

Mithraeum under the Church of San Clemente in Rome, second century A.D. Click on Altar for closer view and on the Statue in the rear for a view of the outer chamber of the temple faculty.cua.edu...

reply to post by autowrench


Thank you for your reply. As for the feminine aspect, I've posted vids of Hindu goddessses in other threads, and have a mighty collection of Kwan Yin statues and pictures. I believe in the Marian appartitions, and I'm even tempted to go to the Basilica and pick up the new statue of the Preggie Mother Mary. It stands several feet tall. We should have respect for all phases of the life cycle. I also have a statue of Kali, the consort of Shiva, and a fearsome goddess representing the slaying of death and demons and the destruction of evil. She holds a sword in one hand and a severed head in another. It may sound drastic to some, but even the decaying of leaves in Autumn represents part of the natural cycle of life and death.
Om Aim Shrim Laksmi Namaha!



I even had Laksmi for my avatar for a while, although my current avatar is one of the Flower Fairies of the Autumn.

Mahalakshmi is the presiding Goddess of the Middle episode of Devi Mahatmya. Here, she is depicted as Devi in her universal form as Shakti. The manifestation of the Devi to kill Mahishasura is formed by the effulgences of all the gods. The Goddess is described as eighteen-armed, bearing a string of beads, battle axe, mace, arrow, thunderbolt, lotus, bow, water pot, cudgel, lance, sword, shield, conch, bell, wine cup, trident, noose and the discus sudarsana. She has a complexion of coral and is seated on a lotus.[8] She is known as Ashta Dasa Bhuja Mahalakshmi.

She is seen in two forms, Bhudevi and Sridevi, both either side of Sri Venkateshwara or Vishnu. Bhudevi is the representation and totality of the material world or energy, called the aparam Prakriti, in which she is called Mother Earth. Sridevi is the spiritual world or energy, called the Param Prakriti. Most people are mistaken that they are separate beings although they are one, Lakshmi. Lakshmi is the power of Lord Vishnu

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by autowrench


I think you mistake free will as the right to do whatever with no consequences. Jesus was no secular humanist, as moral relativity is humanist philosophy. Jesus said he came not to change the LAW! He was totally in accord with Cosmic Law, and yet he showed us the grace of mercy and forgiveness. Forgiveness is the setting aside of karmic law while we get our act together. Karma is God's way of teaching the soul. The Soul is not yet immortal until it attains the frequency of the Ascension flame.
Paul tells us in Galatians that whatever a man sows that shall he reap. He tells us to bear one another's burdens and then tells us that every man shall bear his own burden. He means, we can help each other with grace and love but we ultimately are responsible for our own lives and salvation. Jesus is the intercessor and each of us has our own plumbline to the Godhead through the individual Christ awarenesss.

reply to post by arpgme

Hey again Arpgme -

Sorry to take another large pin to your deluded bubble Fantasy about Christianity not having any older 'pagan' underpinnings, but, the evidence is simply too strong to remain silent for long....

Mithraism arrived in Rome via Cilician Pirates in 79 BCE via their HQ in Tarsus, the birthplace of Saul-Paul.
The main symbol of Mithra was Sun (- Mithras was ‘born again’ on Decembr 25th each year – i.e. the birth of the ‘solar’ cycle) the idea of the Jewish Messiah being identified with the Sun can be seen in e.g. Malachi chapter 4, ‘wherein shall RISE the SUN of Righteousness with Healing in his Wings’ – which itself was stolen (or more politely, ‘adapted’) from the far older Egyptian Mysteries) . the SUN is a symbol for many saviour gods who die and rise again (e.g. Attanuzzi (=Adonis), or Attis or Wusir (Osiris) etc.) , invoking latter images of the Christian’s founder’s ‘mystical’ Death & Resurrection.

Both Mystery religions had a sacrament of bread & wine featured in the Last Suppers of their respective Savior gods. The influence of ‘Mithraism’ is undeniable upon early Christianity (having been introduced into Rome nearly 100 years before Christianity was) despite Justin Martyr’s lame & deluded attempts to say it was the ‘work of Satan’ that made Christianity arrive later than Mithraism upon the scene.

Mithraic prayers pre-date Christian creeds also by more than 100 years : one sacred Mithraic Verse reads : “Be of good cheer, ye sacred band of Mystes & Initiates, your God has risen from the Dead ! His pains and sufferings shall be your own Salvation & that of the whole World !"

It is clear that many of the phrases used by Saul/Paul (born in Tarsus in Cilicia the HQ of the imported ‘Roman Mithras’ version of the originally Persian Mitra Cult) clearly stelas (or more politely, ‘adapts’) the actual terminology and style of the Mithraic Mysteries.

e.g.: ‘Behold, I tell you a Mysterion: we shall not all Sleep, but we shall all be Changed – in a Moment – in the twinkling of an Eye’ – the phrase was originally part of the Mithraic baptism & re-birth ceremony.
Another example of this borrowing of Mithraic symbolism is when Saul-Paul says "They drink from that spiritual Rock & that rock is Ho-Christos"

See I Cor. 10:4) – where it is clear that Mithra was sometimes termed the god out of the rock and Mithraic services were often held in underground rock caves.

Vatican hill in Rome now to Cephas-Peter, the Christian ‘rock’, was already scared to Mithra – and is iin fact BUILT ON TOP OF AN UNDERGROUND MITHRAIC TEMPLE known as a MITHRAEUM in ROME.

Many Mithraic artifacts have been found there. This should not be surprising when it is realized that Mithraism was introduced to the Roman empire around 79 BCE, over 350 years before Christianity was adopted as the official state religion, and that Tarsus, the home of Paul, was one of the chief centers of Romanised Mithras worship in the Roman Empire.

The liturgy of the Eucharist that John describes requires the converted to be born again. In John 3:3 Jesus states that "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

This concept of rebirth is again not unique to Christianity at all - it was in fact integral to the Iranian version of the Mithraic religion for 1500 years before Jesus was born !

In the Mithraic liturgyIt is stated that it is necessary "so that [the speaker] may gaze upon the immortal beginning with the immortal spirit that I may be born again in thought."

Along with the concept of rebirth, the description of the Mithraic communion is nearly indistinguishable
form the Christian accounts.

The prayer said at a Mithraic communion is

"He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

This prayer may be compared to the Christian communion story in Luke 21:19 when Jesus breaks the bread and says

"This is my body to be given up for you. This cup is the new Covenant in my blood which will be shed for you." It is clear just how much influence the symbolism and terminology of Mithraism had infected later Christian writers.

The other stylist influence that Mithraism had on Christianity is in the dress & trappings used during religious services. The Mithraic Pope or ‘Holy Father’ wore a red cap, garment, and ring and carried a shepherd's staff.

The early Christian leaders adopted the Mithraic title of priest as well as sacred dress. Like the Mithraic priests, the Christian's Pope became ‘The Holy Father...”

Also: Mithraic priests wore robes using the sword (cross) of Mithra which are identical to the robes worn by Catholic priests. During Mass, Mithraists commemorated the re-Ascension of Mithras by eating a Mizad, a Sun shaped bun with the cross/sword on it !!

reply to post by autowrench


When you address me and then say,"did any of you listen", well I can only reply for myself. As you can see in my replies, I am no ordinary believer, my faith takes on a deeper dimension, and I include Hindu and Buddhist thought as well. I have no problem incorporating many of the great religions into my awareness. I Am a metaphysician as well.

I found a link of Mithra to the Vedas

The origin of the cult of Mithra dates from the time that the Hindus and Persians still formed one people, for the god Mithra occurs in the religion and the sacred books of both races, i.e. in the Vedas and in the Avesta. In Vedic hymns he is frequently mentioned and is nearly always coupled with Varuna, but beyond the bare occurrence of his name, little is known of him (Rigveda, III, 59). It is conjectured (Oldenberg, "Die "Religion des Veda," Berlin, 1894) that Mithra was the rising sun, Varuna the setting sun; or, Mithra, the sky at daytime, Varuna, the sky at night; or, the one the sun, the other the moon. In any case Mithra is a light or solar deity of some sort; but in vedic times the vague and general mention of him seems to indicate that his name was little more than a memory. In the Avesta he is much more of a living and ruling deity than in Indian piety; nevertheless, he is not only secondary to Ahura Mazda, but he does not belong to the seven Amshaspands or personified virtues which immediately surround Ahura; he is but a Yazad, a popular demigod or genius. The Avesta however gives us his position only after the Zoroastrian reformation; the inscriptions of the Achaemenidae (seventh to fourth century B.C.) assign him a much higher place, naming him immediately after Ahura Mazda and associating him with the goddess Anaitis (Anahata), whose name sometimes precedes his own. Mithra is the god of light, Anaitis the goddess of water

www.newadvent.org...


If Jesus really did travel to the East during the "Lost Years", how easily he could have studied with the great Brahmins and Buddhists of India.

reply to post by Pauligirl


Nothing can be derived from that image. You should have read your own link. I forget some of what was said there. Not allowing women to join which i read someplace else but can't remember right now.

faculty.cua.edu...