Russia threatens to block NATO routes

reply to post by Drunkenparrot


That only means that the USA has a conventions superiority, I guarantee you that until the economic downturn affects the military spending of the USA there will not be anyone starting a conventional war with them and the USA will have every interest in starting a confrontation (toward a quick resolution) at every chance it gets.

What was learned from Pearl Arbor and 9/11 is that the USA is extremely sensitive to disruption in its own soil, this has increased now in today's economic reality, the risk has been increasing since Bush's War on Iraq, now we get the Arab Spring, this allied with Iran and Israel is promoting every and anyone to just stage a direct attack on the USA even Israel is capable of everything in name of its survival as a state, even to prod the USA into action and China is just waiting to things to get started, why else would they keep North Korea around.

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot

Originally posted by Tea4One
Someone needs to put a stop to the imperialist nature of America/NATO. If its Russia or China so be it. The war has gone on long enough, lets hope our Shepard warmongers aren't arrogant enough to truly think they can defeat Russia on the ground.

Yes because the current Russian Federation wields such great power and might....

Sorry but the wishful U.S. bashing gets old, the Soviet Union is vanished into the dustbin of history and the Russian Federation is not a superpower. It is by most modern standards a junkyard.

The current bout of rhetoric over the THAAD deployment in Europe is very telling of Russian strategic insecurities.

The Math doesn't lie...

edit on 29-11-2011 by Drunkenparrot because: (no reason given)

All that money's gone a long way to......winning?....the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan....All that Money made it a cake walk didn't it......All the latest toys with bells and whistles and you're still losing to a rag tag band of cave dwellers (MSM's view) with IED's and rpg's...

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by Tea4One

 

The primary defense budget and the overseas contingency operations budgets are separate. If you add on operational costs then the number even goes higher.

The reason our defense is so high is primarily due to:

The US Air Force is greater in terms of both combat power and airlift than both Russia's and China's combined. In terms of 4th gen fighters, the US has almost as many F-16s (Over 1,200) as Russia and China combined have modern fighters in their air forces and navies. The US Air Force also maintains over 600 F-15s. Lastly the US operates over 170, 5th gen F-22s.
We maintain a large number of strategic bombers, including 20 stealth bombers.

The US Navy is larger than China's, Russia's and the EU's combined.
That includes 11 carrier strike groups, each with 70 combat aircraft, 12 expeditionary strike groups, each carrying thousands of US Marines. Plus over 50 nuclear attack submarines

The US Army and Marines maintain the largest number of modern (3rd gen) main battle tanks of any military, almost 9,000 M1 Abrams tanks. (Russia operates about 700 T-90s and 4500 T-80s, China operates 2500 Type 96s and 200 Type 99s)
The US Army also maintains the largest number of modern gunships of any military, over 700 AH-64 Apaches. (Russia operates 26 Ka-50 type Hokums, 44 Mi-28 Havocs, and 360 Mi-24 Hinds, while China operates 100 CAIC WZ-10s).

In terms of firepower, we have the operational capability in full mobilization to not only fight Russia and China at the same time, but rapidly achieve aerial and naval supremacy. The only trump card they have is the nuclear card and even then they could lose that in a decade.

What's your point? You have a lot of toys...are you going to use them all in one place? you think that if the full force of the US Military goes to battle other countries are going to sit idly by? You will have gorilla style tactics but not in a single country....the whole world over. To support you're massive air force you're going to need bases/carriers...I assume you have an answer for keeping all those intact?

My Point: the US military is not the end all be all. No nations army is. To say "We will destroy you because we have the best tech/most money invested" has NO understanding on modern warfare. Unless we talking Nukes......war with Russia and China will be NASTY and both sides.

Russia should go ahead and block the routes. NATO will not do anything but back down. With that said, I highly doubt Russia will block those routes. They are chest puffing hoping that NATO will back down, but we all know that's not going to happen.

While I do not think Russia is actually going to fully cut off the supply routes, this shows that Russia is willing and able to take more drastic measures to demonstrate to the US that its hegemony and uncompromising attitude will not be tolerated. The most likely outcome of this, is that US will be forced to negotiate behind the scenes. They might agree to some of Russia's demands, but they will be carried out over a longer term to make it seem like US is not caving in.


International politics have always been about give and take bartering if you will, except of course for the times when one side just tries to take something by going to war. US used to be pretty masterful at the art of bartering during the Cold War, however ever since it became the sole "superpower" it seems to have forgotten some political manners. It does negotiate and proceed to take, but it occasionally ignores the "give" part. Take for instance the agreement in the final days of the Cold War, where Soviet Union agreed to quickly dismantle the Warsaw Pact and the US agreed not to expand NATO to Eastern Europe. NATO continued to grow, despite the agreements and despite the fact that the Cold War was over. Russia protested, by US spit at it. Take Kosovo, where Russia agreed to help the US put pressure on Milosevich and break up Yugoslavia, in return for US staying out of Serbia. Nope, despite very strong protests from Russia NATO bombed Serbia and took away part of their territory.

Well in the 90's the US could afford to act like a boss, not giving a **** about anyone's concerns. But this is not the 90's - US economy and budget is still knee deep in problems, it is fighting two wars, one of which certainly appears to be endless, and it is making new enemies left and right. In each of the issues it faces, it depends on other countries for assistance and cooperation - the world is more interconnected than ever before. And the countries that the US depends on will no longer just give - they will want something in return.

Russia agreed to let US use its land supply routes to support the war in Afghanistan. In return it asked the US to consider its interests and concerns elsewhere, including Eastern Europe. Russia asked the US to fight the heroin production in Afghanistan (and offered support to do so), and to not proceed with the installation of the ABM systems in Eastern Europe. At first the US made it look like it is seriously considering both of these requests. Obama agreed to cancel the ABM installations. And then suddenly the US did a 360, and disregarded Russia's considerations.

And it is not like Russia had not repeatedly warned the US that it will have to act accordingly. The US reaction was along the lines of "Huh? Who cares".



So there you have it. US is not alone in the world, and it certainly is not self-sufficient in everything it does. You want others to do favors and address your needs? Well guess what - you have to reciprocate. Can't learn the easy way? Well there is only one other way, and I am not sure the US will like it.

Originally posted by majesticgent
They are chest puffing hoping that NATO will back down, but we all know that's not going to happen.

And why do you think Russia can't act on its threats? US right now depends more on Russia than Russia on the US. There are other areas too where Russia can hurt the US or its allies' interests. Russia is carefully probing the US to see if it can pressure it to negotiate. If Russia acts too rash too quickly, then instead of negotiations and seeking a common solution, the situation will degenerate into bigger and bigger threats and actions from both sides. In the end Russia is seeking the negotiation route, but it will seek it for only so long. If the US doesn't show signs of compromise then Russia will have no alternatives left and it will act on its warnings.

reply to post by maloy

If the US doesn't show signs of compromise then Russia will have no alternatives left and it will act on its warnings.

No alternative...are they incapable of finding another solution...I mean I know Russians are thick but you would think all out war would not be an option ever!

Don't feed the bears...let them go back into hibernation!

Originally posted by jerryznv
No alternative...are they incapable of finding another solution...I mean I know Russians are thick but you would think all out war would not be an option ever!

Don't feed the bears...let them go back into hibernation!

Who said I am talking about war? I am talking about warnings such as blocking NATO's supply route to Afghanistan. There is not going to be an actual conflict, but it may degenerate to a point where both sides are trying to hurt each other through other means.

And you want to talk about Russians being thick? First learn to analyze people's comments more passively.

reply to post by alchemist2012


Russia is asking for war right now and I am scared NATO will comply this time but russia wtf?
Do you honestly think youll walk away from this unscathed?
dumbass

reply to post by maloy

First learn to analyze people's comments more passively.

Okay...I'll be passive...

What do you think is going to happen if Russia blocks NATO?

People are going to die...maybe no war will be declared...but lives will be lost...so although war might have been my choice of words...I meant hostile action...call it war or whatever...still not an action that Russia should take!

Protect their interest's in the middle east...sure...but threating NATO...we all know what is going to happen!

Back to burying my passive head in the sand...no more hostility here!

reply to post by trentyh

I am surer they will respond to Russia,this is like the new kid trying to take over the playground/sandbox and the United States is the current big kid.I would say that prepping is a goooood idea right about now

Originally posted by jerryznv
Okay...I'll be passive...

What do you think is going to happen if Russia blocks NATO?

Most likely scenario is that US will be forced to negotiate with Russia, possibly behind the scenes.

Second most likely scenario is that US for the time being will negotiate an alternative but much more expensive supply route - through Turkmenistan, over the Caspian, and then through Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey. Because of the added difficulty and expense this will force US to start an orderly but quick withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Third scenario, is that if US can't reach any deals or is unwilling to, it will rapidly pack up and leave, possibly abandoning a lot of hardware, leaving it to the Afghan government. It is not like Russia or Turkmenistan won't allow US troops to fly out of Afghanistan - the supply route into Afghanistan will be blocked.

Originally posted by jerryznv
People are going to die...maybe no war will be declared...but lives will be lost...so although war might have been my choice of words...I meant hostile action...call it war or whatever...still not an action that Russia should take!

US troops won't necessarily be in trouble - they can just leave. For Afghanistan the conflict may escalate because if the US is forced to abandon it, and Taliban will get back on the offensive. It will be 1990 all over again. But that is the way of life in Afghanistan, and has been since the 70's. Afghanis are screwed either way you look at it - eventually the US will have to leave one way or another, and the Taliban or whatever other bearded men take the initiate will restart the Civil War and associated festivities.

You can't change the way of life and the prevailing circumstances there - to think otherwise is ignorant.

Originally posted by jerryznv
Protect their interest's in the middle east...sure...but threating NATO...we all know what is going to happen!!

They are not threatening NATO with military action. They are threatening to stop cooperating with NATO. And what is NATO or US going to do about it? You talk as if other nations can't talk business with NATO, and have to tiptoe their way around issues so NATO doesn't get mad. Well there are other emerging or reemerging strong powers around the world, who feel they can stand their ground, and rightly so.

Originally posted by jerryznv
Back to burying my passive head in the sand...no more hostility here!

Now that's more like it. See how relieving it is? The big powers don't fight each other anymore - that ended with WWII. The big powers only fight proxy wars and throw their weight around.

reply to post by maloy

Most likely scenario is that US will be forced to negotiate with Russia, possibly behind the scenes.

Second most likely scenario is that US for the time being will negotiate an alternative but much more expensive supply route - through Turkmenistan, over the Caspian, and then through Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey. Because of the added difficulty and expense this will force US to start an orderly but quick withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Third scenario, is that if US can't reach any deals or is unwilling to, it will rapidly pack up and leave, possibly abandoning a lot of hardware, leaving it to the Afghan government. It is not like Russia or Turkmenistan won't allow US troops to fly out of Afghanistan - the supply route into Afghanistan will be blocked.

And scenario four...the U.S. refuses to negotiate and NATO says go ahead...we are calling you bluff. Russia makes good on their threats and NATO along with the U.S. decides to go ahead and bomb the piss out of them. Russia angry at getting the piss bombed out of them decides to strike back at NATO allies and all hell breaks loose...WWIII is off and running...all because Russia had no choice but to back up their threats!

Now that's more like it. See how relieving it is? The big powers don't fight each other anymore - that ended with WWII. The big powers only fight proxy wars and throw their weight around.

We shall see now won't we? I think this is the start of more than just throwing their weight around!

Ahhh....yes relieving!

Originally posted by jerryznv
And scenario four...the U.S. refuses to negotiate and NATO says go ahead...we are calling you bluff. Russia makes good on their threats and NATO along with the U.S. decides to go ahead and bomb the piss out of them. Russia angry at getting the piss bombed out of them decides to strike back at NATO allies and all hell breaks loose...WWIII is off and running...all because Russia had no choice but to back up their threats!

And this will happen why? Because the individuals running NATO are utter idiots with no sense of self-preservation? They may not always seem to be making the smartest decisions, but they are not brainless monkeys eager to press the button. If NATO acted the way you describe, everyone on earth would have been killed by nuclear weapons in the beginning of the Cold War. But we are still here.

No there must be something else in this equation. Oh I know - the Mutually Assured Destruction concept. Either that, or the idiot monkeys in charge just haven't found the red button yet, or forgot the launch codes.

reply to post by maloy

And this will happen why?

I don't know why...your scenario is plausible I suppose.

More likely though it is not just NATO...it is a world ruled by idiots...including those in the Russian government...men who don't have enough sense to salvage humanity...power, greed...etc...it is never enough!

You threaten me...I threaten back...you show me how big you balls are...I show you how big mine are. It is a never ending battle for what...oil, money, power, control...who knows.

You can't possibly think that Iran is doing the world any good right now (those in power specifically) and why would we not think that doing nothing is not an option?

I won't disagree that their are idiots running NATO...but I won't surrender to thinking there are more idiots in play this time around!

reply to post by Drunkenparrot

So bascially it's now Russia's turn to watch the U.S overspend on defense till it goes bankrupt (excuse me already is bankrupt). History is such a b*tch. Also, perhaps you could study up on assymetric warfare. The colonists in America sure did, so did Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot

Originally posted by Tea4One
Someone needs to put a stop to the imperialist nature of America/NATO. If its Russia or China so be it. The war has gone on long enough, lets hope our Shepard warmongers aren't arrogant enough to truly think they can defeat Russia on the ground.

Yes because the current Russian Federation wields such great power and might....

Sorry but the wishful U.S. bashing gets old, the Soviet Union is vanished into the dustbin of history and the Russian Federation is not a superpower. It is by most modern standards a junkyard.

The current bout of rhetoric over the THAAD deployment in Europe is very telling of Russian strategic insecurities.

The Math doesn't lie...

edit on 29-11-2011 by Drunkenparrot because: (no reason given)

Mn you should of not shown the OP and a few of his/her followers/inciters.

Your going to blow their "the US is doomed and were all going to die" fantasies.

Stop whipping one another into these frenzies.

Not fear mongering, the writings on the wall etc etc. LOL its gotten old already.

We will get things through, we always do. Relax. Your going to blow a tube in your neck.

reply to post by Vardoger


Funny I didn't see your post and I said the exact same thing.

reply to post by lnfidel


Doomed and bankruptcy are completely different, but the end result is the same: you're #ed.

reply to post by Tea4One


Your trippin...
The USA's ground forces....
Tanks and troops are unmatched...
Guerilla war is not winnable...
But army on army and we will roll over the russians...