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The Bible has been changed ( rewritten )
page: 36share:
I think the experts need to get together on this and then they can sort it out, no way can ordinary people go through all the manuscripts, oldest
books, scrolls, letters and quotes and ancient preists.
Apart from that it is funny how ancient buildings statues and archaeology keeps saying Bible or Torah, well something happened or existed during those times the picture keeps fitting, the prophecies are not outdated either.
I don't know, which side do you choose? Does choosing sides sound like a Biblical endtime scenario?
Apart from that it is funny how ancient buildings statues and archaeology keeps saying Bible or Torah, well something happened or existed during those times the picture keeps fitting, the prophecies are not outdated either.
I don't know, which side do you choose? Does choosing sides sound like a Biblical endtime scenario?
reply to post by The time lord
Timely
You are being led widely-astray by your pro-Christian apologists in your lame Quotations from non-scholars & psedudo scholars e.g. just to grab one example, at the very end of your last post you quoted a pseudo scholar who was absolutelyLYING about the Evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls copies of the Hebrew scriptures WHICH ARE IN FACT NOT VERY CLOSE to the later Masoretic versions of the Hebrew scriptures
You Quoted (without bothering to check your facts, again !!)
QUOTE:
“The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in going about their work.
These copyists knew they were duplicating God's Word, so they went to incredible lengths to prevent error from creeping into their work.
The scribes carefully counted every line, word, syllable, and letter to ensure accuracy…”
UNQUOTE
This is a patent falsehood and FLIES IN THE FACE OF EVERY KNOWN FACT ABOUT THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS.
How DARE YOU quote this !
Anyone who can read the Dead Sea Scrolls FOR THEMSELVES in the original Hebrew and Aramaic copies (and even some of the Greek texts found there) knows FOR AN ABSOLUTE FACT that the scribes were NOT copying out word for word or letter for letter the modern Bible version of the Hebrew Scriptures used by Protestants and Rabinnic Jews to-day (i.e. the socalled Masoretic Text MT / from c. 960 CE) BUT USED NON Masoretic Hebrew & Aramaic Text families – and even when copying out the texts in front of them, they were NOT VERY PUNCTILLIOUS about making deliberate scribal text changes to the received texts to suit their own theologies…
This is a FACT which every Dead Sea Scroll scholar knows….You will have to read THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS BIBLE edited by Martin G. Abegg, Peter W. Flint & Eugene Charles Ulrich
books.google.com... 4Rlb_W1myz-c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AiAXT4OsFcHhiAKy8LjxDw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=martin%20abegg%20the%20dead%20sea%20scrolls%20bible&f=false
– this book is printed in ENGLISH for NON SCHOLARS and shows thousands of the of the textual VARIANTS in the Hebrew Bible that DO NOT MATCH the versions of the bible very closely that you read in your churches.
In view of this, how could anyone POSSIBLY quote such a BOLD FACED LIE from a PSEUDO SCHOLAR as you did in your silly post above, and expect to get away with it on ATS?
Don’t you know that you are bound to be found out sooner or later by persons on this thread who ARE familiar and conversant with the hard facts of the matter?
For example, sometimes a Dead Sea Scroll text will follow the HebVorlage (Hebrew & Aramaic textual underlay) of the Greek Septuaginta text family (say, with respect to much of their copies of the book of Jeremiah, for example), other times, they seem to follow the gist of the protoMasoretic consonantal text, and at other times the scrolls follow the text of the Hebrew Vorlage underlay used in Theodotion’s Greek translation (e.g. in their citations from the Aramaic sections to the Book of Daniel, e.g. chapters 2 through 6), and at other times the Dead Sea Scrolls follow the text of the Hebrew Vorlage consonantal underlay used in Symmachus’ Greek translation of c. 140 CE; and still at other times, the the Dead Sea Scrolls follow the text of the Hebrew Vorlage consonantal underlay used in Aquilla’s Greek translation of c. 130 CE…
Sometimes THE SAME text is quoted in the protoMasoretic version lying next to a copy of the SAME TEXT in the SAME CAVE quoting the Hebrew Vorlage underlay to the Greek Septuaginta LXX of BCE 180.
Have you NOT read any of the work of modern SERIOUS and reputable textual biblical scholars on these matters? Is your church stopping you from taking a Greek course or a Hebrew course so you can do your own comparisons? Or are you just lazy?
Read THE EARLIEST TEXT OF THE HEBREW BIBLE edited by Adrian Schenker, Vol 52 (Editor : Melvin K.H. Peters) from the Society of Biblical Literature ISBN 1-58983-081-4 (paperback) which has collected several articles by renowned biblica scholars e.g. Dr Natalio Fernandez Marcos, Dr Dieter Boehler, Dr Pierre-Maurice Bogaert, Dr. Olivier Munnich, and of course the great Dr Emanuel Tov’s work on comparing line by line the Dead Sea Scolls material with the Masoretic, the Pe#ta, the Vulgate, the Greek Septuaginta, the Greek versions of Aquila, Theodotion & Symmachus.
If you think for one moment the Dead Sea Scrolls copyists were working from a single text family or that they copied out what was in front of them very accurately, you will have to see the evidence for yourself first hand.
Only then will you be conversant enough with this material to be able to see what a big FAT liar the writer of the dribble you quoted really is !!
Timely
You are being led widely-astray by your pro-Christian apologists in your lame Quotations from non-scholars & psedudo scholars e.g. just to grab one example, at the very end of your last post you quoted a pseudo scholar who was absolutelyLYING about the Evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls copies of the Hebrew scriptures WHICH ARE IN FACT NOT VERY CLOSE to the later Masoretic versions of the Hebrew scriptures
You Quoted (without bothering to check your facts, again !!)
QUOTE:
“The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in going about their work.
These copyists knew they were duplicating God's Word, so they went to incredible lengths to prevent error from creeping into their work.
The scribes carefully counted every line, word, syllable, and letter to ensure accuracy…”
UNQUOTE
This is a patent falsehood and FLIES IN THE FACE OF EVERY KNOWN FACT ABOUT THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS.
How DARE YOU quote this !
Anyone who can read the Dead Sea Scrolls FOR THEMSELVES in the original Hebrew and Aramaic copies (and even some of the Greek texts found there) knows FOR AN ABSOLUTE FACT that the scribes were NOT copying out word for word or letter for letter the modern Bible version of the Hebrew Scriptures used by Protestants and Rabinnic Jews to-day (i.e. the socalled Masoretic Text MT / from c. 960 CE) BUT USED NON Masoretic Hebrew & Aramaic Text families – and even when copying out the texts in front of them, they were NOT VERY PUNCTILLIOUS about making deliberate scribal text changes to the received texts to suit their own theologies…
This is a FACT which every Dead Sea Scroll scholar knows….You will have to read THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS BIBLE edited by Martin G. Abegg, Peter W. Flint & Eugene Charles Ulrich
books.google.com... 4Rlb_W1myz-c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AiAXT4OsFcHhiAKy8LjxDw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=martin%20abegg%20the%20dead%20sea%20scrolls%20bible&f=false
– this book is printed in ENGLISH for NON SCHOLARS and shows thousands of the of the textual VARIANTS in the Hebrew Bible that DO NOT MATCH the versions of the bible very closely that you read in your churches.
In view of this, how could anyone POSSIBLY quote such a BOLD FACED LIE from a PSEUDO SCHOLAR as you did in your silly post above, and expect to get away with it on ATS?
Don’t you know that you are bound to be found out sooner or later by persons on this thread who ARE familiar and conversant with the hard facts of the matter?
For example, sometimes a Dead Sea Scroll text will follow the HebVorlage (Hebrew & Aramaic textual underlay) of the Greek Septuaginta text family (say, with respect to much of their copies of the book of Jeremiah, for example), other times, they seem to follow the gist of the protoMasoretic consonantal text, and at other times the scrolls follow the text of the Hebrew Vorlage underlay used in Theodotion’s Greek translation (e.g. in their citations from the Aramaic sections to the Book of Daniel, e.g. chapters 2 through 6), and at other times the Dead Sea Scrolls follow the text of the Hebrew Vorlage consonantal underlay used in Symmachus’ Greek translation of c. 140 CE; and still at other times, the the Dead Sea Scrolls follow the text of the Hebrew Vorlage consonantal underlay used in Aquilla’s Greek translation of c. 130 CE…
Sometimes THE SAME text is quoted in the protoMasoretic version lying next to a copy of the SAME TEXT in the SAME CAVE quoting the Hebrew Vorlage underlay to the Greek Septuaginta LXX of BCE 180.
Have you NOT read any of the work of modern SERIOUS and reputable textual biblical scholars on these matters? Is your church stopping you from taking a Greek course or a Hebrew course so you can do your own comparisons? Or are you just lazy?
Read THE EARLIEST TEXT OF THE HEBREW BIBLE edited by Adrian Schenker, Vol 52 (Editor : Melvin K.H. Peters) from the Society of Biblical Literature ISBN 1-58983-081-4 (paperback) which has collected several articles by renowned biblica scholars e.g. Dr Natalio Fernandez Marcos, Dr Dieter Boehler, Dr Pierre-Maurice Bogaert, Dr. Olivier Munnich, and of course the great Dr Emanuel Tov’s work on comparing line by line the Dead Sea Scolls material with the Masoretic, the Pe#ta, the Vulgate, the Greek Septuaginta, the Greek versions of Aquila, Theodotion & Symmachus.
If you think for one moment the Dead Sea Scrolls copyists were working from a single text family or that they copied out what was in front of them very accurately, you will have to see the evidence for yourself first hand.
Only then will you be conversant enough with this material to be able to see what a big FAT liar the writer of the dribble you quoted really is !!
As a theologian I find this thread very interesting.
I spent many a semester researching the Christian tradition and specifically liberation and feminist theology.
Anyway, blah blah. My point is simple, people of faith cannot be convinced of something that contradicts their faith and likewise, people of academia cannot be convinced of that which lacks credible reason or evidence. Hence faith is belief without proof and reason is belief with evidence.
I am not too on the fence to air this view though...
The Christian tradition was built upon political and ideological need. Augustine was on his ass ffs.
Women were being burned at the stake for doing a 'mans job' (medicine) and enlightenment was at odds with a system (Christian fundamentalism) that had existed for hundreds of years.
In a world where science was in its infancy and yet threatened to redress the balance that had been for centuries (earth at the centre of the universe etc), religion became rather hard core in order intimidate any opposition.
Given that the Christian message is all about love, forgiveness and love and forgiveness, where is the sense in this unless there was in fact something to be fearful of?
It is my belief that organized religion is a product of man and therefore should not be trusted. Faith however is something else entirely.
IF there was indeed a Christ, Muhammed (PBUH), Moses etc, their simple message would not dwell on the enemy, authority or punishment. For their message of love, forgiveness and a oneness in God should be all that matters, well to God at least....
It was man that screwed it all up IMHO.
Just my opinion.
Peace, Lilith.
I spent many a semester researching the Christian tradition and specifically liberation and feminist theology.
Anyway, blah blah. My point is simple, people of faith cannot be convinced of something that contradicts their faith and likewise, people of academia cannot be convinced of that which lacks credible reason or evidence. Hence faith is belief without proof and reason is belief with evidence.
I am not too on the fence to air this view though...
The Christian tradition was built upon political and ideological need. Augustine was on his ass ffs.
Women were being burned at the stake for doing a 'mans job' (medicine) and enlightenment was at odds with a system (Christian fundamentalism) that had existed for hundreds of years.
In a world where science was in its infancy and yet threatened to redress the balance that had been for centuries (earth at the centre of the universe etc), religion became rather hard core in order intimidate any opposition.
Given that the Christian message is all about love, forgiveness and love and forgiveness, where is the sense in this unless there was in fact something to be fearful of?
It is my belief that organized religion is a product of man and therefore should not be trusted. Faith however is something else entirely.
IF there was indeed a Christ, Muhammed (PBUH), Moses etc, their simple message would not dwell on the enemy, authority or punishment. For their message of love, forgiveness and a oneness in God should be all that matters, well to God at least....
It was man that screwed it all up IMHO.
Just my opinion.
Peace, Lilith.
Like I said how can anyone prove or disprove, I thought I had to learn ancient greek and hebrew otherwise how would people really know anyway, are
they sure that they are useing the right translation kits?
Anyway before we get to the Oldest Known Bible, why were there Churches built before hand if Jesus did not say the things he said, so I doubt that is the case. The Church fathers who are known as saints all quote from a Bible from Old and New Testament, they all say the same thing, people wrote about the Bible and scriptures before the oldest known Bible can be found so what were they quoting if that is not the case.
If we go back to Roman literture they too mention Judaism and later on a Jesus who is the Christ.
Like they say, yet I can not prove it, there is enough quotes to make the New Testment we have today.
Its not that important for me right now as I am more interested in prophecy and how the patterns pan out between nations which keeps firm what is said in the Bible.
I still need to look into these.
Alexander of Alexandria [SAINT]
- Epistles on the Arian Heresy and the Deposition of Arius
Alexander of Lycopolis
- Of the Manicheans
Ambrose (340-397) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- On the Christian Faith (De fide)
- On the Holy Spirit
- On the Mysteries
- On Repentance
- On the Duties of the Clergy
- Concerning Virgins
- Concerning Widows
- On the Death of Satyrus
- Memorial of Symmachus
- Sermon against Auxentius
- Letters
Aphrahat/Aphraates (c. 280-367)
- Demonstrations
Archelaus
- Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes
Aristides the Philosopher
- The Apology
Arnobius
- Against the Heathen
Athanasius [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Against the Heathen
- On the Incarnation of the Word
- Deposition of Arius
- Statement of Faith
- On Luke 10:22 (Matthew 11:27)
- Circular Letter
- Apologia Contra Arianos
- De Decretis
- De Sententia Dionysii
- Vita S. Antoni (Life of St. Anthony)
- Ad Episcopus Aegypti et Libyae
- Apologia ad Constantium
- Apologia de Fuga
- Historia Arianorum
- Four Discourses Against the Arians
- De Synodis
- Tomus ad Antiochenos
- Ad Afros Epistola Synodica
- Historia Acephala
- Letters
Athenagoras
- A Plea for the Christians
- The Resurrection of the Dead
Augustine of Hippo [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Confessions
- Letters
- City of God
- Christian Doctrine
- On the Holy Trinity
- The Enchiridion
- On the Catechising of the Uninstructed
- On Faith and the Creed
- Concerning Faith of Things Not Seen
- On the Profit of Believing
- On the Creed: A Sermon to Catechumens
- On Continence
- On the Good of Marriage
- On Holy Virginity
- On the Good of Widowhood
- On Lying
- To Consentius: Against Lying
- On the Work of Monks
- On Patience
- On Care to be Had For the Dead
- On the Morals of the Catholic Church
- On the Morals of the Manichaeans
- On Two Souls, Against the Manichaeans
- Acts or Disputation Against Fortunatus the Manichaean
- Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental
- Reply to Faustus the Manichaean
- Concerning the Nature of Good, Against the Manichaeans
- On Baptism, Against the Donatists
- Answer to Letters of Petilian, Bishop of Cirta
- Merits and Remission of Sin, and Infant Baptism
- On the Spirit and the Letter
- On Nature and Grace
- On Man's Perfection in Righteousness
- On the Proceedings of Pelagius
- On the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin
- On Marriage and Concupiscence
- On the Soul and its Origin
- Against Two Letters of the Pelagians
- On Grace and Free Will
- On Rebuke and Grace
- The Predestination of the Saints/Gift of Perseverance
- Our Lord's Sermon on the Mount
- The Harmony of the Gospels
- Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament
- Tractates on the Gospel of John
- Homilies on the First Epistle of John
- Soliloquies
- The Enarrations, or Expositions, on the Psalms
Bardesanes (154-222)
- The Book of the Laws of Various Countries
Barnabas [SAINT]
- Epistle of Barnabas
Basil the Great [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- De Spiritu Sancto
- Nine Homilies of Hexaemeron
- Letters
Caius
- Fragments
Clement of Alexandria [SAINT]
- Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?
- Exhortation to the Heathen
- The Instructor
- The Stromata, or Miscellanies
- Fragments
Clement of Rome [SAINT]
- First Epistle
- Second Epistle [SPURIOUS]
- Two Epistles Concerning Virginity [SPURIOUS]
- Recognitions [SPURIOUS]
- Clementine Homilies [SPURIOUS]
Commodianus
- Writings
Cyprian of Carthage [SAINT]
- The Life and Passion of Cyprian By Pontius the Deacon
- The Epistles of Cyprian
- The Treatises of Cyprian
- The Se
Anyway before we get to the Oldest Known Bible, why were there Churches built before hand if Jesus did not say the things he said, so I doubt that is the case. The Church fathers who are known as saints all quote from a Bible from Old and New Testament, they all say the same thing, people wrote about the Bible and scriptures before the oldest known Bible can be found so what were they quoting if that is not the case.
If we go back to Roman literture they too mention Judaism and later on a Jesus who is the Christ.
Like they say, yet I can not prove it, there is enough quotes to make the New Testment we have today.
Its not that important for me right now as I am more interested in prophecy and how the patterns pan out between nations which keeps firm what is said in the Bible.
I still need to look into these.
Alexander of Alexandria [SAINT]
- Epistles on the Arian Heresy and the Deposition of Arius
Alexander of Lycopolis
- Of the Manicheans
Ambrose (340-397) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- On the Christian Faith (De fide)
- On the Holy Spirit
- On the Mysteries
- On Repentance
- On the Duties of the Clergy
- Concerning Virgins
- Concerning Widows
- On the Death of Satyrus
- Memorial of Symmachus
- Sermon against Auxentius
- Letters
Aphrahat/Aphraates (c. 280-367)
- Demonstrations
Archelaus
- Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes
Aristides the Philosopher
- The Apology
Arnobius
- Against the Heathen
Athanasius [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Against the Heathen
- On the Incarnation of the Word
- Deposition of Arius
- Statement of Faith
- On Luke 10:22 (Matthew 11:27)
- Circular Letter
- Apologia Contra Arianos
- De Decretis
- De Sententia Dionysii
- Vita S. Antoni (Life of St. Anthony)
- Ad Episcopus Aegypti et Libyae
- Apologia ad Constantium
- Apologia de Fuga
- Historia Arianorum
- Four Discourses Against the Arians
- De Synodis
- Tomus ad Antiochenos
- Ad Afros Epistola Synodica
- Historia Acephala
- Letters
Athenagoras
- A Plea for the Christians
- The Resurrection of the Dead
Augustine of Hippo [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Confessions
- Letters
- City of God
- Christian Doctrine
- On the Holy Trinity
- The Enchiridion
- On the Catechising of the Uninstructed
- On Faith and the Creed
- Concerning Faith of Things Not Seen
- On the Profit of Believing
- On the Creed: A Sermon to Catechumens
- On Continence
- On the Good of Marriage
- On Holy Virginity
- On the Good of Widowhood
- On Lying
- To Consentius: Against Lying
- On the Work of Monks
- On Patience
- On Care to be Had For the Dead
- On the Morals of the Catholic Church
- On the Morals of the Manichaeans
- On Two Souls, Against the Manichaeans
- Acts or Disputation Against Fortunatus the Manichaean
- Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental
- Reply to Faustus the Manichaean
- Concerning the Nature of Good, Against the Manichaeans
- On Baptism, Against the Donatists
- Answer to Letters of Petilian, Bishop of Cirta
- Merits and Remission of Sin, and Infant Baptism
- On the Spirit and the Letter
- On Nature and Grace
- On Man's Perfection in Righteousness
- On the Proceedings of Pelagius
- On the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin
- On Marriage and Concupiscence
- On the Soul and its Origin
- Against Two Letters of the Pelagians
- On Grace and Free Will
- On Rebuke and Grace
- The Predestination of the Saints/Gift of Perseverance
- Our Lord's Sermon on the Mount
- The Harmony of the Gospels
- Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament
- Tractates on the Gospel of John
- Homilies on the First Epistle of John
- Soliloquies
- The Enarrations, or Expositions, on the Psalms
Bardesanes (154-222)
- The Book of the Laws of Various Countries
Barnabas [SAINT]
- Epistle of Barnabas
Basil the Great [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- De Spiritu Sancto
- Nine Homilies of Hexaemeron
- Letters
Caius
- Fragments
Clement of Alexandria [SAINT]
- Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?
- Exhortation to the Heathen
- The Instructor
- The Stromata, or Miscellanies
- Fragments
Clement of Rome [SAINT]
- First Epistle
- Second Epistle [SPURIOUS]
- Two Epistles Concerning Virginity [SPURIOUS]
- Recognitions [SPURIOUS]
- Clementine Homilies [SPURIOUS]
Commodianus
- Writings
Cyprian of Carthage [SAINT]
- The Life and Passion of Cyprian By Pontius the Deacon
- The Epistles of Cyprian
- The Treatises of Cyprian
- The Se
edit on 19-1-2012 by The time lord because: (no reason given)
All these are books and people who wrote about the Bible before or around the tme of the latin Bible, so they much have been writing about a book or
scriptures that we call the Bible today.
they about at a certain point wrote about the docrines of the Bible.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Commodianus
- Writings
Cyprian of Carthage [SAINT]
- The Life and Passion of Cyprian By Pontius the Deacon
- The Epistles of Cyprian
- The Treatises of Cyprian
- The Seventh Council of Carthage
Cyril of Jerusalem [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Catechetical Lectures
Dionysius of Rome [SAINT]
- Against the Sabellians
Dionysius the Great
- Epistles and Epistolary Fragments
- Exegetical Fragments
- Miscellaneous Fragments
Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Nisibene Hymns
- Miscellaneous Hymns -- On the Nativity of Christ in the Flesh, For the Feast of the Epiphany, and On the Faith ("The Pearl")
- Homilies -- On Our Lord, On Admonition and Repentance, and On the Sinful Woman
Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 265-c. 340)
- Church History
- Life of Constantine
- Oration of Constantine "to the Assembly of the Saints"
- Oration in Praise of Constantine
- Letter on the Council of Nicaea
Gennadius of Marseilles
- Illustrious Men (Supplement to Jerome)
Gregory the Great, Pope (c. 540-604) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Pastoral Rule
- Register of Letters
Gregory Nazianzen [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Orations
- Letters
Gregory of Nyssa [SAINT]
- Against Eunomius
- Answer to Eunomius' Second Book
- On the Holy Spirit (Against the Followers of Macedonius)
- On the Holy Trinity, and of the Godhead of the Holy Spirit (To Eustathius)
- On "Not Three Gods" (To Ablabius)
- On the Faith (To Simplicius)
- On Virginity
- On Infants' Early Deaths
- On Pilgrimages
- On the Making of Man
- On the Soul and the Resurrection
- The Great Catechism
- Funeral Oration on Meletius
- On the Baptism of Christ (Sermon for the Day of Lights)
- Letters
Gregory Thaumaturgus [SAINT]
- A Declaration of Faith
- A Metaphrase of the Book of Ecclesiastes
- Canonical Epistle
- The Oration and Panegyric Addressed to Origen
- A Sectional Confession of Faith
- On the Trinity
- Twelve Topics on the Faith
- On the Subject of the Soul
- Four Homilies
- On All the Saints
- On Matthew 6:22-23
Hermas
- The Pastor (or "The Shepherd")
Hilary of Poitiers [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- On the Councils, or the Faith of the Easterns
- On the Trinity
- Homilies on the Psalms
Hippolytus [SAINT]
- The Refutation of All Heresies
- Some Exegetical Fragments of Hippolytus
- Expository Treatise Against the Jews
- Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe
- Against the Heresy of Noetus
- Discourse on the Holy Theophany
- The Antichrist
- The End of the World (Pseudonymous)
- The Apostles and the Disciples (Pseudonymous)
Ignatius of Antioch [SAINT]
- Epistle to the Ephesians
- Epistle to the Magnesians
- Epistle to the Trallians
- Epistle to the Romans
- Epistle to the Philadelphians
- Epistle to the Smyrnæans
- Epistle to Polycarp
- The Martyrdom of Ignatius
- The Spurious Epistles
Irenaeus of Lyons [SAINT]
- Adversus haereses
- Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus
Jerome [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Letters
- The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary
- To Pammachius Against John of Jerusalem
- The Dialogue Against the Luciferians
- The Life of Malchus, the Captive Monk
- The Life of S. Hilarion
- The Life of Paulus the First Hermit
- Against Jovinianus
- Against Vigilantius
- Against the Pelagians
- Prefaces
- De Viris Illustribus (Illustrious Men)
- Apology for himself against the Books of Rufinus
John of Damascus [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Exposition of the Faith
John Cassian (c. 360-c. 435)
- Institutes
- Conferences
- On the Incarnation of the Lord (Against Nestorius)
John Chrysostom [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew
- Homilies on Acts
- Homilies on Romans
- Homilies on First Corinthians
- Homilies on Second Corinthians
- Homilies on Ephesians
- Homilies on Philippians
- Homilies on Colossians
- Homilies on First Thessalonians
- Homilies on Second Thessalonians
- Homilies on First Timothy
- Homilies on Second Timothy
- Homilies on Titus
- Homilies on Philemon
- Commentary on Galatians
- Homilies on the Gospel of John
- Homilies on the Epistle to the Hebrews
- Homilies on the Statues
- No One Can Harm the Man Who Does Not Injure Himself
- Two Letters to Theodore After His Fall
- Letter to a Young Widow
- Homily on St. Ignatius
- Homily on St. Babylas
- Homily Concerning "Lowliness of Mind"
- Instructions to Catechumens
- Three Homilies on the Power of Satan
- Homily on the Passage "Father, if it be possible . . ."
- Homily on the Paralytic Lowered Through the Roof
- Homily on the Passage "If your enemy hunger, feed him."
- Homily Against Publishing the Errors of the Brethren
- First Homily on Eutropius
- Second Homily on Eutropius (After His Captivity)
- Four Letters to Olympias
- Letter to Some Priests of Antioch
- Correspondence with Pope Innocent I
- On the Priesthood
Julius Africanus
- Extant Writings
Justin Martyr [SAINT]
- First Apology
- Second Apology
- Dialogue with Trypho
- Hortatory Address to the Greeks
- On the Sole Government of God
- Fragments of the Lost Work on the Resurrection
- Miscellaneous Fragments from Lost Writings
- Martyrdom of Justin, Chariton, and other Roman Martyrs
- Discourse to the Greeks
they about at a certain point wrote about the docrines of the Bible.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Commodianus
- Writings
Cyprian of Carthage [SAINT]
- The Life and Passion of Cyprian By Pontius the Deacon
- The Epistles of Cyprian
- The Treatises of Cyprian
- The Seventh Council of Carthage
Cyril of Jerusalem [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Catechetical Lectures
Dionysius of Rome [SAINT]
- Against the Sabellians
Dionysius the Great
- Epistles and Epistolary Fragments
- Exegetical Fragments
- Miscellaneous Fragments
Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Nisibene Hymns
- Miscellaneous Hymns -- On the Nativity of Christ in the Flesh, For the Feast of the Epiphany, and On the Faith ("The Pearl")
- Homilies -- On Our Lord, On Admonition and Repentance, and On the Sinful Woman
Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 265-c. 340)
- Church History
- Life of Constantine
- Oration of Constantine "to the Assembly of the Saints"
- Oration in Praise of Constantine
- Letter on the Council of Nicaea
Gennadius of Marseilles
- Illustrious Men (Supplement to Jerome)
Gregory the Great, Pope (c. 540-604) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Pastoral Rule
- Register of Letters
Gregory Nazianzen [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Orations
- Letters
Gregory of Nyssa [SAINT]
- Against Eunomius
- Answer to Eunomius' Second Book
- On the Holy Spirit (Against the Followers of Macedonius)
- On the Holy Trinity, and of the Godhead of the Holy Spirit (To Eustathius)
- On "Not Three Gods" (To Ablabius)
- On the Faith (To Simplicius)
- On Virginity
- On Infants' Early Deaths
- On Pilgrimages
- On the Making of Man
- On the Soul and the Resurrection
- The Great Catechism
- Funeral Oration on Meletius
- On the Baptism of Christ (Sermon for the Day of Lights)
- Letters
Gregory Thaumaturgus [SAINT]
- A Declaration of Faith
- A Metaphrase of the Book of Ecclesiastes
- Canonical Epistle
- The Oration and Panegyric Addressed to Origen
- A Sectional Confession of Faith
- On the Trinity
- Twelve Topics on the Faith
- On the Subject of the Soul
- Four Homilies
- On All the Saints
- On Matthew 6:22-23
Hermas
- The Pastor (or "The Shepherd")
Hilary of Poitiers [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- On the Councils, or the Faith of the Easterns
- On the Trinity
- Homilies on the Psalms
Hippolytus [SAINT]
- The Refutation of All Heresies
- Some Exegetical Fragments of Hippolytus
- Expository Treatise Against the Jews
- Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe
- Against the Heresy of Noetus
- Discourse on the Holy Theophany
- The Antichrist
- The End of the World (Pseudonymous)
- The Apostles and the Disciples (Pseudonymous)
Ignatius of Antioch [SAINT]
- Epistle to the Ephesians
- Epistle to the Magnesians
- Epistle to the Trallians
- Epistle to the Romans
- Epistle to the Philadelphians
- Epistle to the Smyrnæans
- Epistle to Polycarp
- The Martyrdom of Ignatius
- The Spurious Epistles
Irenaeus of Lyons [SAINT]
- Adversus haereses
- Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus
Jerome [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Letters
- The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary
- To Pammachius Against John of Jerusalem
- The Dialogue Against the Luciferians
- The Life of Malchus, the Captive Monk
- The Life of S. Hilarion
- The Life of Paulus the First Hermit
- Against Jovinianus
- Against Vigilantius
- Against the Pelagians
- Prefaces
- De Viris Illustribus (Illustrious Men)
- Apology for himself against the Books of Rufinus
John of Damascus [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Exposition of the Faith
John Cassian (c. 360-c. 435)
- Institutes
- Conferences
- On the Incarnation of the Lord (Against Nestorius)
John Chrysostom [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew
- Homilies on Acts
- Homilies on Romans
- Homilies on First Corinthians
- Homilies on Second Corinthians
- Homilies on Ephesians
- Homilies on Philippians
- Homilies on Colossians
- Homilies on First Thessalonians
- Homilies on Second Thessalonians
- Homilies on First Timothy
- Homilies on Second Timothy
- Homilies on Titus
- Homilies on Philemon
- Commentary on Galatians
- Homilies on the Gospel of John
- Homilies on the Epistle to the Hebrews
- Homilies on the Statues
- No One Can Harm the Man Who Does Not Injure Himself
- Two Letters to Theodore After His Fall
- Letter to a Young Widow
- Homily on St. Ignatius
- Homily on St. Babylas
- Homily Concerning "Lowliness of Mind"
- Instructions to Catechumens
- Three Homilies on the Power of Satan
- Homily on the Passage "Father, if it be possible . . ."
- Homily on the Paralytic Lowered Through the Roof
- Homily on the Passage "If your enemy hunger, feed him."
- Homily Against Publishing the Errors of the Brethren
- First Homily on Eutropius
- Second Homily on Eutropius (After His Captivity)
- Four Letters to Olympias
- Letter to Some Priests of Antioch
- Correspondence with Pope Innocent I
- On the Priesthood
Julius Africanus
- Extant Writings
Justin Martyr [SAINT]
- First Apology
- Second Apology
- Dialogue with Trypho
- Hortatory Address to the Greeks
- On the Sole Government of God
- Fragments of the Lost Work on the Resurrection
- Miscellaneous Fragments from Lost Writings
- Martyrdom of Justin, Chariton, and other Roman Martyrs
- Discourse to the Greeks
Are all these books and papers just fantasy I dont know to be honest, again could be conspiracy of translation, maybe we need to learn old english
before we can even translate what is really said.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Lactantius
- The Divine Institutes
- The Epitome of the Divine Institutes
- On the Anger of God
- On the Workmanship of God
- Of the Manner In Which the Persecutors Died
- Fragments of Lactantius
- The Phoenix
- A Poem on the Passion of the Lord
Leo the Great, Pope (c. 395-461) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Sermons
- Letters
Malchion
- Epistle
Mar Jacob (452-521)
- Canticle on Edessa
- Homily on Habib the Martyr
- Homily on Guria and Shamuna
Mathetes
- Epistle to Diognetus
Methodius
- The Banquet of the Ten Virgins
- Concerning Free Will
- From the Discourse on the Resurrection
- Fragments
- Oration Concerning Simeon and Anna
- Oration on the Psalms
- Three Fragments from the Homily on the Cross and Passion of Christ
Minucius Felix
- Octavius
Moses of Chorene (c. 400-c. 490)
- History of Armenia
Novatian
- Treatise Concerning the Trinity
- On the Jewish Meats
Origen
- De Principiis
- Africanus to Origen
- Origen to Africanus
- Origen to Gregory
- Against Celsus
- Letter of Origen to Gregory
- Commentary on the Gospel of John
- Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew
Pamphilus [SAINT]
- Exposition on the Acts of the Apostles
Papias [SAINT]
- Fragments
Peter of Alexandria [SAINT]
- The Genuine Acts
- The Canonical Epistle
- Fragments
Polycarp [SAINT]
- Epistle to the Philippians
- The Martyrdom of Polycarp
Rufinus
- Apology
- Commentary on the Apostles' Creed
- Prefaces and Other Works
Socrates Scholasticus (c. 379-c. 450)
- Ecclesiastical History
Sozomen (c. 375-c. 447)
- Ecclesiastical History
Sulpitius Severus (c. 363-c. 420)
- On the Life of St. Martin
- Letters -- Genuine and Dubious
- Dialogues
- Sacred History
Tatian
- Address to the Greeks
- Fragments
- The Diatessaron
Tertullian
- The Apology
- On Idolatry
- De Spectaculis (The Shows)
- De Corona (The Chaplet)
- To Scapula
- Ad Nationes
- An Answer to the Jews
- The Soul's Testimony
- A Treatise on the Soul
- The Prescription Against Heretics
- Against Marcion
- Against Hermogenes
- Against the Valentinians
- On the Flesh of Christ
- On the Resurrection of the Flesh
- Against Praxeas
- Scorpiace
- Appendix (Against All Heresies)
- On Repentance
- On Baptism
- On Prayer
- Ad Martyras
- The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (Sometimes attributed to Tertullian)
- Of Patience
- On the Pallium
- On the Apparel of Women
- On the Veiling of Virgins
- To His Wife
- On Exhortation to Chastity
- On Monogamy
- On Modesty
- On Fasting
- De Fuga in Persecutione
Theodoret
- Counter-Statements to Cyril's 12 Anathemas against Nestorius
- Ecclesiastical History
- Dialogues ("Eranistes" or "Polymorphus")
- Demonstrations by Syllogism
- Letters
Theodotus
- Excerpts
Theophilus
- Theophilus to Autolycus
Venantius
- Poem on Easter
Victorinus [SAINT]
- On the Creation of the World
- Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John
Vincent of Lérins (d. c. 450) [SAINT]
- Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith
OTHER WORKS
Liturgies
- The Liturgy of James
- The Liturgy of Mark
- The Liturgy of the Blessed Apostles
Councils
- Carthage under Cyprian (257) [LOCAL]
- Ancyra (314) [LOCAL]
- Neocaesarea (315) [LOCAL]
- Nicaea I (325) [ECUMENICAL]
- Antioch in Encaeniis (341) [LOCAL]
- Gangra (343) [LOCAL]
- Sardica (344) [LOCAL]
- Constantinople I (381) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople (382) [LOCAL]
- Laodicea (390) [LOCAL]
- Constantinople under Nectarius (394) [LOCAL]
- Carthage (419) [LOCAL]
- Ephesus (431) [ECUMENICAL]
- Chalcedon (451) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople II (553) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople III (680) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople/"Trullo"/Quinisext (692) [LOCAL]
- Nicaea II (787) [ECUMENICAL]
Apocrypha
- Apocalypse of Peter (c. 130)
- Protoevangelium of James (c. 150)
- Acts of Paul and Thecla (c. 180)
- Gospel of Peter (c. 190) [DOCETIC]
- The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (c. 192) [EBIONITIC]
- Acts of Peter and Paul (c. 200)
- Gospel of Thomas (c. 200) [GNOSTIC]
- Acts of Thomas (c. 240) [GNOSTIC]
- Acts of Thaddaeus (c. 250)
- Acts of Andrew (c. 260) [GNOSTIC]
- Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena (c. 270)
- Acts of John [DOCETIC]
- Acts of Philip (c. 350)
- Apocalypse of Paul (c. 380)
- Gospel of Nicodemus (Including "Acta Pilati") (c. 150-400)
- The Doctrine of Addai (c. 400) -- This is a Syriac version of the earlier Acts of Thaddaeus (s.v.)
- Assumption of Mary (c. 400)
- History of Joseph the Carpenter (c. 400)
- Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew (c. 400)
- Acts of Barnabas (c. 500)
- Acts of Bartholomew (c. 500) [NESTORIAN]
- Acts and Martyrdom of St. Matthew the Apostle (c. 550) [ABYSSINIAN]
- Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of the Saviour (c. 600)
- Avenging of the Saviour (c. 700)
- Apocalypse of John (unknown date; late)
- Apocalypse of Moses (unknown date) [JUDAISTIC]
- Apocalypse of Esdras (unknown date) [JUDAISTIC]
- Testament of Abraham (unknown date) [JUDAISTIC]
- Narrative of Zosimus (unknown date)
- Gospel of the Nativity of Mary (unknown date; late)
- Narrative of Joseph of Arimathea (unknown date; late)
- Report of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Letter of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Giving Up of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Death of Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Apocalypse of the Virgin (unknown date; very late)
- Apocalypse of Sedrach (unknown date; very late)
- Acts of Andrew and Matthias
- Acts of Peter and Andrew
- Consummation of Thomas the Apostle
Miscellaneous
- The Didache (c. 100)
- Apostolic Constitutions (c. 400)
- The Legend of Barlaam and Josaphat
- The Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs (c. 180)
- A Treatise Against the Heretic Novatian (c. 255)
- A Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 255)
- Remains of the Second and Third Centuries (various dates)
- Apostolic Canons (c. 400) -- See Apostolic Constitutions, Book VIII, Chapter 47
- Acts of Sharbil (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The Martyrdom of Barsamya (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Extracts from Various Books Concerning Abgar the King and Addaeus the Apostle (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The Teaching of the Apostles (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The Teaching of Simon Cephas in the City of Rome (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Martyrdom of Habib the Deacon (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Martyrdom of the Holy Confessors Shamuna, Guria, and Habib (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- A Letter of Mara, Son of Serapion (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Ambrose (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The False Decretals (c. 850)
________________________________________________________________________________________
Lactantius
- The Divine Institutes
- The Epitome of the Divine Institutes
- On the Anger of God
- On the Workmanship of God
- Of the Manner In Which the Persecutors Died
- Fragments of Lactantius
- The Phoenix
- A Poem on the Passion of the Lord
Leo the Great, Pope (c. 395-461) [SAINT] [DOCTOR]
- Sermons
- Letters
Malchion
- Epistle
Mar Jacob (452-521)
- Canticle on Edessa
- Homily on Habib the Martyr
- Homily on Guria and Shamuna
Mathetes
- Epistle to Diognetus
Methodius
- The Banquet of the Ten Virgins
- Concerning Free Will
- From the Discourse on the Resurrection
- Fragments
- Oration Concerning Simeon and Anna
- Oration on the Psalms
- Three Fragments from the Homily on the Cross and Passion of Christ
Minucius Felix
- Octavius
Moses of Chorene (c. 400-c. 490)
- History of Armenia
Novatian
- Treatise Concerning the Trinity
- On the Jewish Meats
Origen
- De Principiis
- Africanus to Origen
- Origen to Africanus
- Origen to Gregory
- Against Celsus
- Letter of Origen to Gregory
- Commentary on the Gospel of John
- Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew
Pamphilus [SAINT]
- Exposition on the Acts of the Apostles
Papias [SAINT]
- Fragments
Peter of Alexandria [SAINT]
- The Genuine Acts
- The Canonical Epistle
- Fragments
Polycarp [SAINT]
- Epistle to the Philippians
- The Martyrdom of Polycarp
Rufinus
- Apology
- Commentary on the Apostles' Creed
- Prefaces and Other Works
Socrates Scholasticus (c. 379-c. 450)
- Ecclesiastical History
Sozomen (c. 375-c. 447)
- Ecclesiastical History
Sulpitius Severus (c. 363-c. 420)
- On the Life of St. Martin
- Letters -- Genuine and Dubious
- Dialogues
- Sacred History
Tatian
- Address to the Greeks
- Fragments
- The Diatessaron
Tertullian
- The Apology
- On Idolatry
- De Spectaculis (The Shows)
- De Corona (The Chaplet)
- To Scapula
- Ad Nationes
- An Answer to the Jews
- The Soul's Testimony
- A Treatise on the Soul
- The Prescription Against Heretics
- Against Marcion
- Against Hermogenes
- Against the Valentinians
- On the Flesh of Christ
- On the Resurrection of the Flesh
- Against Praxeas
- Scorpiace
- Appendix (Against All Heresies)
- On Repentance
- On Baptism
- On Prayer
- Ad Martyras
- The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (Sometimes attributed to Tertullian)
- Of Patience
- On the Pallium
- On the Apparel of Women
- On the Veiling of Virgins
- To His Wife
- On Exhortation to Chastity
- On Monogamy
- On Modesty
- On Fasting
- De Fuga in Persecutione
Theodoret
- Counter-Statements to Cyril's 12 Anathemas against Nestorius
- Ecclesiastical History
- Dialogues ("Eranistes" or "Polymorphus")
- Demonstrations by Syllogism
- Letters
Theodotus
- Excerpts
Theophilus
- Theophilus to Autolycus
Venantius
- Poem on Easter
Victorinus [SAINT]
- On the Creation of the World
- Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John
Vincent of Lérins (d. c. 450) [SAINT]
- Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith
OTHER WORKS
Liturgies
- The Liturgy of James
- The Liturgy of Mark
- The Liturgy of the Blessed Apostles
Councils
- Carthage under Cyprian (257) [LOCAL]
- Ancyra (314) [LOCAL]
- Neocaesarea (315) [LOCAL]
- Nicaea I (325) [ECUMENICAL]
- Antioch in Encaeniis (341) [LOCAL]
- Gangra (343) [LOCAL]
- Sardica (344) [LOCAL]
- Constantinople I (381) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople (382) [LOCAL]
- Laodicea (390) [LOCAL]
- Constantinople under Nectarius (394) [LOCAL]
- Carthage (419) [LOCAL]
- Ephesus (431) [ECUMENICAL]
- Chalcedon (451) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople II (553) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople III (680) [ECUMENICAL]
- Constantinople/"Trullo"/Quinisext (692) [LOCAL]
- Nicaea II (787) [ECUMENICAL]
Apocrypha
- Apocalypse of Peter (c. 130)
- Protoevangelium of James (c. 150)
- Acts of Paul and Thecla (c. 180)
- Gospel of Peter (c. 190) [DOCETIC]
- The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (c. 192) [EBIONITIC]
- Acts of Peter and Paul (c. 200)
- Gospel of Thomas (c. 200) [GNOSTIC]
- Acts of Thomas (c. 240) [GNOSTIC]
- Acts of Thaddaeus (c. 250)
- Acts of Andrew (c. 260) [GNOSTIC]
- Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena (c. 270)
- Acts of John [DOCETIC]
- Acts of Philip (c. 350)
- Apocalypse of Paul (c. 380)
- Gospel of Nicodemus (Including "Acta Pilati") (c. 150-400)
- The Doctrine of Addai (c. 400) -- This is a Syriac version of the earlier Acts of Thaddaeus (s.v.)
- Assumption of Mary (c. 400)
- History of Joseph the Carpenter (c. 400)
- Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew (c. 400)
- Acts of Barnabas (c. 500)
- Acts of Bartholomew (c. 500) [NESTORIAN]
- Acts and Martyrdom of St. Matthew the Apostle (c. 550) [ABYSSINIAN]
- Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of the Saviour (c. 600)
- Avenging of the Saviour (c. 700)
- Apocalypse of John (unknown date; late)
- Apocalypse of Moses (unknown date) [JUDAISTIC]
- Apocalypse of Esdras (unknown date) [JUDAISTIC]
- Testament of Abraham (unknown date) [JUDAISTIC]
- Narrative of Zosimus (unknown date)
- Gospel of the Nativity of Mary (unknown date; late)
- Narrative of Joseph of Arimathea (unknown date; late)
- Report of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Letter of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Giving Up of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Death of Pilate (unknown date; late)
- Apocalypse of the Virgin (unknown date; very late)
- Apocalypse of Sedrach (unknown date; very late)
- Acts of Andrew and Matthias
- Acts of Peter and Andrew
- Consummation of Thomas the Apostle
Miscellaneous
- The Didache (c. 100)
- Apostolic Constitutions (c. 400)
- The Legend of Barlaam and Josaphat
- The Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs (c. 180)
- A Treatise Against the Heretic Novatian (c. 255)
- A Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 255)
- Remains of the Second and Third Centuries (various dates)
- Apostolic Canons (c. 400) -- See Apostolic Constitutions, Book VIII, Chapter 47
- Acts of Sharbil (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The Martyrdom of Barsamya (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Extracts from Various Books Concerning Abgar the King and Addaeus the Apostle (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The Teaching of the Apostles (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The Teaching of Simon Cephas in the City of Rome (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Martyrdom of Habib the Deacon (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Martyrdom of the Holy Confessors Shamuna, Guria, and Habib (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- A Letter of Mara, Son of Serapion (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- Ambrose (unknown date) [SYRIAC]
- The False Decretals (c. 850)
You might get a few books that try and analyse The Jews, Judaism Christians and Churches and the laws but they were all lead by some source of
information in which they composed their work on, many were killed for it, not sure why people would put the effort into it if that was not the
case.
Of course there must have been conspiracies, the Jews in their Hebrew manuscripts must have gone through all the church fathers works, quoted from them in case they quoted something different and added them in before the full version of Old Testament was written in 900AD, unless of course they had expert handlers who knew all their stuff, including knowing ever word that was written from their times and the oldest copies were just lost and got old anyway.
Maybe they got together with Romans and the Christian saints and said, I will copy this and that so it fits in, then just to make things complicated let’s make Islam up too in about 800AD so they too can quote before us what we have wrong so we make our own book based on what they don't like about Jews and Christians and have them quote about books that have not even been written yet so they can make false wars against each other. Still does not make sense. No wonder Jesus forgave and healed those who just believed and touched his clothes rather than those who thought they were overly smart, maybe the message holds true as the pattern of the messages seem to prove its own worth of words of wisdom.
Of course if we keep to the Bible has been written case then we have these issues to think about.
Either translation is wrong full stop.
Atheist people's point of view of translations are wrong bias.
Believers believe anything so translation is unproven or biast.
Believers who lie about translations
We have lost some ways to translate
Both parties are not using the same methods of translations
_________________________________________________
Outside the Bible:
-People quoted from a book or scrolls that predate the Bible
-Maybe our translation of those quotes is wrong and they are all wrong
-Maybe they are right and all fit each other to the Bible and scrolls and books predating the actual full versions.
-A lot of the believers were killed and maybe books thrown away along with them
-Maybe they were reading something else but died for no reason anyway
-Buildings and Churches predate actual Bibles and historical ruins and art depict the Bible stories
-Conspiracy where some people went through all the ruins and churches and rewrote everything
___________________________________________________
Prophecy in all three religions will one day come to a climax:
-Israel was in place to restart WW3
-The Jews lived in persecution for no reason
-Islam is the opposite book so they needed an enemy of the Old and New Testaments
-Empires and countries built to one day wage war because of religion
-Iran and Iraq and Middle East nations set up on purpose to one day fight a false Christian Jewish believers.
-Islamic prophecy predicts our death
-Bible prophecy old and new predict Middle East will battle Armageddon
-Islamic Jesus battles Zion and Jews and turns up at Damascus Syria
-Christian Jesus shows up at Zion and destroys nations who battles Israel
-Communist counties persecute Christians and religion
-Atheist shun believers of all religions, mainly Christianity since it is their country
-Christians die in Islamic boarders and countries so they must die for no reason
-Sunni and Shiites kill each other out anyway
-Protestants hate Catholics anyway but are more at peace that above lot.
-Or Christians saw Islam and decided to say Christ did die for us after the Koran was written
-Or the Koran copied and quoted from Jews and Christians, got it wrong and made a religion out of it
-Maybe the Christians got it wrong and also made a religion out of it
-The relationship between man and Israel favours the true believers where those who deny Christ and hate him and persecute followers always live in chaos and lack the peace from the Christian countries have today
- God's subtle hidden works where destruction on his enemies will come about patterns seem to fit Biblically
- Both prophecies are set up on purpose, Muslims must rid of Jews and Israel while the minority of Jews face many nations coming against them again as stated in their religious history.
-The Jews and Christians must hold on till the Messiah arrives at Zion while it could trigger the very prophecies they fear about.
The point of all this if its all down to translation?
Of course there must have been conspiracies, the Jews in their Hebrew manuscripts must have gone through all the church fathers works, quoted from them in case they quoted something different and added them in before the full version of Old Testament was written in 900AD, unless of course they had expert handlers who knew all their stuff, including knowing ever word that was written from their times and the oldest copies were just lost and got old anyway.
Maybe they got together with Romans and the Christian saints and said, I will copy this and that so it fits in, then just to make things complicated let’s make Islam up too in about 800AD so they too can quote before us what we have wrong so we make our own book based on what they don't like about Jews and Christians and have them quote about books that have not even been written yet so they can make false wars against each other. Still does not make sense. No wonder Jesus forgave and healed those who just believed and touched his clothes rather than those who thought they were overly smart, maybe the message holds true as the pattern of the messages seem to prove its own worth of words of wisdom.
Of course if we keep to the Bible has been written case then we have these issues to think about.
Either translation is wrong full stop.
Atheist people's point of view of translations are wrong bias.
Believers believe anything so translation is unproven or biast.
Believers who lie about translations
We have lost some ways to translate
Both parties are not using the same methods of translations
_________________________________________________
Outside the Bible:
-People quoted from a book or scrolls that predate the Bible
-Maybe our translation of those quotes is wrong and they are all wrong
-Maybe they are right and all fit each other to the Bible and scrolls and books predating the actual full versions.
-A lot of the believers were killed and maybe books thrown away along with them
-Maybe they were reading something else but died for no reason anyway
-Buildings and Churches predate actual Bibles and historical ruins and art depict the Bible stories
-Conspiracy where some people went through all the ruins and churches and rewrote everything
___________________________________________________
Prophecy in all three religions will one day come to a climax:
-Israel was in place to restart WW3
-The Jews lived in persecution for no reason
-Islam is the opposite book so they needed an enemy of the Old and New Testaments
-Empires and countries built to one day wage war because of religion
-Iran and Iraq and Middle East nations set up on purpose to one day fight a false Christian Jewish believers.
-Islamic prophecy predicts our death
-Bible prophecy old and new predict Middle East will battle Armageddon
-Islamic Jesus battles Zion and Jews and turns up at Damascus Syria
-Christian Jesus shows up at Zion and destroys nations who battles Israel
-Communist counties persecute Christians and religion
-Atheist shun believers of all religions, mainly Christianity since it is their country
-Christians die in Islamic boarders and countries so they must die for no reason
-Sunni and Shiites kill each other out anyway
-Protestants hate Catholics anyway but are more at peace that above lot.
-Or Christians saw Islam and decided to say Christ did die for us after the Koran was written
-Or the Koran copied and quoted from Jews and Christians, got it wrong and made a religion out of it
-Maybe the Christians got it wrong and also made a religion out of it
-The relationship between man and Israel favours the true believers where those who deny Christ and hate him and persecute followers always live in chaos and lack the peace from the Christian countries have today
- God's subtle hidden works where destruction on his enemies will come about patterns seem to fit Biblically
- Both prophecies are set up on purpose, Muslims must rid of Jews and Israel while the minority of Jews face many nations coming against them again as stated in their religious history.
-The Jews and Christians must hold on till the Messiah arrives at Zion while it could trigger the very prophecies they fear about.
The point of all this if its all down to translation?
edit on 19-1-2012 by The time lord because: (no reason given)
I haven't followed this topic, but in response to the title only, I wanted to share this web page, and just one article for examination,
www.biblicalarchaeology.org...
I think the Bible has been meticulously copied and recorded
www.biblestudy.org...
I suggest one reason it was so meticulously recorded and copied was, FEAR, fear of retribution, by scribes that believed it was sacred word of god, and on those days mankind was extremely superstitious.
While uncovering an impressive destruction level dating to the second half of the ninth century B.C.E., when Gath was the largest of the five cities of the Philistines and perhaps the largest city in the Land of Israel during the Iron Age, excavators found an exceptionally well preserved horned altar reminiscent of the Israelite horned altars described in the Bible (Exodus 27:1–2; 1 Kings 1:50).
Had it not been for a stroke of luck, the horned altar may never have been discovered. Like most archaeological digs, the Tell es-Safi/Gath excavation leaves unexcavated “balks” between the excavation squares, thereby allowing easier access to the squares as well as providing a profile view of the excavated layers. In the winter of 2010/2011, however, strong rainstorms caused some of the balks to collapse.
When the team came back to the field in July 2011, one of their first priorities was to clean up and straighten the collapsed balks. As they cleaned one of the balks in Area D (in the lower city), they came upon an unusually shaped stone object just 10 inches below the surface. Work was immediately stopped as they probed further, and, lo and behold, one of the horns of the altar appeared. Once they realized what they had discovered, the team began the slow, delicate process of excavating the entire horned altar.
The horned altar stands nearly 3.5 feet high and measures just over 1.5 feet on each side. These dimensions more or less match the dimensions given in the Bible (Exodus 30:2) for the Israelite incense altar of the Tabernacle (though this altar shows no signs of having been used to burn incense). Moreover, the decorative features of the altar, including its horns and the groove and raised band of the base, are similar to Israelite altars described in the Bible (Exodus 27:2), as well as other Iron Age altars that have been found throughout the southern Levant.
www.biblicalarchaeology.org...
I think the Bible has been meticulously copied and recorded
www.biblestudy.org...
I suggest one reason it was so meticulously recorded and copied was, FEAR, fear of retribution, by scribes that believed it was sacred word of god, and on those days mankind was extremely superstitious.
. How could the Bible have been copied so accurately and faithfully over the many centuries without human error entering into the text? The answer is found in the overwhelming respect and fear of God that motivated Jewish and Christian scholars whose job was to faithfully copy the text of the Bible. In a later chapter dealing with the Hebrew Codes beneath the text of the Bible, I will share how the Masoretic scribes meticulously copied the text of the Scriptures over the centuries.
edit on 033131p://bThursday2012 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)
The Crucified Messiah Scroll
books.google.com... Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8I4YT_KDOYHAgAfl4pTvCw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=The%20Crucified%20Messiah%20Scroll&f=false
books.google.com... Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8I4YT_KDOYHAgAfl4pTvCw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=The%20Crucified%20Messiah%20Scroll&f=false
reply to post by Stormdancer777
Hi Stormy -
Unfortunately for 'bible believing Chrsitians' the Dead Sea Scrolls fragment in question (4Q285, aka The Pierced Messiah text c. 15 CE, part of the War Scroll ) can be translated in DIFFERENT ways out of the consonantal Hebrew text as it stands in 4Q285 and 11Q14 from the War Scroll aka "The Scroll of the Book of the War of All the Sons of Light against All the Sons of Darkness in the Last Days...")
e.g. 'he shall kill (i.e. 'put to death' i.e. in the grammatically future active voice, meaning the Messiah himself shall slay, or pierce to death) or 'he shall be put to death' (in the passive voice) - so this mangled fragment among so many hundreds of thousands of mangled fragments CANNOT be used as a 'proof text' (according to the latest research, at least !) of a 'pierced' Messiah figure.
(Serekh ha-Milhamah) 4Q285 (
"[even as it is written in the S]croll of the Book of Isaiah the Prophet: "The Thicket[s of the for]est will be cut down with the axe and Lebanon by a majestic One will f]all."
And also, "There shall come forth a Shoot from the Stump of Jesse [who is the NAZIR ('branch') Branch of David at which time they will enter into Judgment with [all the sons of Darkness] & the Prince of the Congregation, the Bran[ch of David] it is he who will put [him] to de[ath by stroke]s and by wounds.
And a Priest [of s]ome renown will then command [all the] the slain of the Kitti[m] that have fallen on the [...]"
In other words the text could speak of a 'killed Messiah' (who is himself 'pierced to death') or a 'piercing Messiah' (i.e. a Killing Messiah - one who pierces others, specifically the sons of Darkness in the War....)
Most of the Dead Sea Scroll material was copied out by hand (some quote biblical texts including books such as the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs, or The Words of Henoch (i.e. I Henoch chapters 1-36 and 72-107) or 'The Scroll of the Book of the Divisions of the Times into their Jubilees and Weeks' aka The Book of Jubilees or The Scroll of the Book of the Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach (aka Ecclesiasticus, aka Sirach) published by his grandson in 190 BCE) , whilst other texts found in caves 1-11 seem to quote texts that only the Community itself used, which are known as Sectarian texts) somewhere between 280 BCE and 68 CE - and the vast majority of the non-Biblical texts speak of the Teacher of Righteousness (or 'Righteous Teacher' aka 'Priest-Teacher' since TSADDIQ can mean 'righteous according to Ma'aseh haTorah' or sometimes can be translated as 'Priest' hTsaddiq or 'Priests' (haTsaddiqim) in the plural,..) who seems to have lived between BCE 190 and BCE 95 - living to the ripe old age of c. 96 years having undergone some 'persecution' during Yom Kippur by a 'Wicked [high] Priest' (haCohen HaRasha') sometime following the Macabbean Revolt (c. 165 BCE), where a rival High Priest (i.e. the teacher of Righteousness, allegedly blood-descended from Zadokite Priests in Jerusalem) was chased out of Jerusalem and 'fled to Damascus' which could mean the capital of modern day Syria, or it could be a code-word for The Camp of Seccacah (present day Khirbet Qumran near the caves where the Scrolls were found) 14 miles northeast of Jerusalem in the 'Wilderness of Judaea' where allegedly John the Baptist (R. Yohanon bar Zechariah) received his training and did his 'water-dipping' i.e. immersion baths or ritual MIKVOT for his own disciples, R. Yehoshua bar Yosef (Gk. ho Iesous) as was R. Shimeon bar Yonah ha Kephah ('aka Simon Peter'and his blood brother Andreas bar Yonah) being one of 'John's disciples' before he was executed by beheading by Herod Antipas c. 29 CE.
The Rule of War for all the Sons of Light in the Last Days was one of these non canonical 'sectarian' documents, although had the Jews won the war against Rome (66-72 CE) it might have become part of the 'bible' - certainly the author(s) of the Book of Revelation (which describes this Holy War Jihad against the Gentiles in the Last Days) quotes often from the War Rule Scroll as if it were already scripural (i.e. god-breathed, sacred scriptures, able to defile the hands...) & quotes from the same antiGentile War Hymns (which begin with the phrase 'sing unto YHWH a NEW SONG' -
Look up the 9 NEW SONGs (or New Psalms) i.e. War Hymns in the Hebrew 'bible' (in whatever mangled version , whether the Masoretic, or the text family used by the translators of the Greek LXX Septuaginta, or in the Peshtta or in Aquila or Symmachus or Theodotion etc.) these NEW PSLAMS ALL have to do with wiping out the Goyim (i.e. gentiles) in some kind of Jihadist Ziionist Final Holy War - the attitude of the writer of 'Revelation' echoes this War Scroll again and again and again and again and again.
To quote fragments of the War Scroll know what you are quoting !!
Hi Stormy -
Unfortunately for 'bible believing Chrsitians' the Dead Sea Scrolls fragment in question (4Q285, aka The Pierced Messiah text c. 15 CE, part of the War Scroll ) can be translated in DIFFERENT ways out of the consonantal Hebrew text as it stands in 4Q285 and 11Q14 from the War Scroll aka "The Scroll of the Book of the War of All the Sons of Light against All the Sons of Darkness in the Last Days...")
e.g. 'he shall kill (i.e. 'put to death' i.e. in the grammatically future active voice, meaning the Messiah himself shall slay, or pierce to death) or 'he shall be put to death' (in the passive voice) - so this mangled fragment among so many hundreds of thousands of mangled fragments CANNOT be used as a 'proof text' (according to the latest research, at least !) of a 'pierced' Messiah figure.
(Serekh ha-Milhamah) 4Q285 (
"[even as it is written in the S]croll of the Book of Isaiah the Prophet: "The Thicket[s of the for]est will be cut down with the axe and Lebanon by a majestic One will f]all."
And also, "There shall come forth a Shoot from the Stump of Jesse [who is the NAZIR ('branch') Branch of David at which time they will enter into Judgment with [all the sons of Darkness] & the Prince of the Congregation, the Bran[ch of David] it is he who will put [him] to de[ath by stroke]s and by wounds.
And a Priest [of s]ome renown will then command [all the] the slain of the Kitti[m] that have fallen on the [...]"
In other words the text could speak of a 'killed Messiah' (who is himself 'pierced to death') or a 'piercing Messiah' (i.e. a Killing Messiah - one who pierces others, specifically the sons of Darkness in the War....)
Most of the Dead Sea Scroll material was copied out by hand (some quote biblical texts including books such as the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs, or The Words of Henoch (i.e. I Henoch chapters 1-36 and 72-107) or 'The Scroll of the Book of the Divisions of the Times into their Jubilees and Weeks' aka The Book of Jubilees or The Scroll of the Book of the Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach (aka Ecclesiasticus, aka Sirach) published by his grandson in 190 BCE) , whilst other texts found in caves 1-11 seem to quote texts that only the Community itself used, which are known as Sectarian texts) somewhere between 280 BCE and 68 CE - and the vast majority of the non-Biblical texts speak of the Teacher of Righteousness (or 'Righteous Teacher' aka 'Priest-Teacher' since TSADDIQ can mean 'righteous according to Ma'aseh haTorah' or sometimes can be translated as 'Priest' hTsaddiq or 'Priests' (haTsaddiqim) in the plural,..) who seems to have lived between BCE 190 and BCE 95 - living to the ripe old age of c. 96 years having undergone some 'persecution' during Yom Kippur by a 'Wicked [high] Priest' (haCohen HaRasha') sometime following the Macabbean Revolt (c. 165 BCE), where a rival High Priest (i.e. the teacher of Righteousness, allegedly blood-descended from Zadokite Priests in Jerusalem) was chased out of Jerusalem and 'fled to Damascus' which could mean the capital of modern day Syria, or it could be a code-word for The Camp of Seccacah (present day Khirbet Qumran near the caves where the Scrolls were found) 14 miles northeast of Jerusalem in the 'Wilderness of Judaea' where allegedly John the Baptist (R. Yohanon bar Zechariah) received his training and did his 'water-dipping' i.e. immersion baths or ritual MIKVOT for his own disciples, R. Yehoshua bar Yosef (Gk. ho Iesous) as was R. Shimeon bar Yonah ha Kephah ('aka Simon Peter'and his blood brother Andreas bar Yonah) being one of 'John's disciples' before he was executed by beheading by Herod Antipas c. 29 CE.
The Rule of War for all the Sons of Light in the Last Days was one of these non canonical 'sectarian' documents, although had the Jews won the war against Rome (66-72 CE) it might have become part of the 'bible' - certainly the author(s) of the Book of Revelation (which describes this Holy War Jihad against the Gentiles in the Last Days) quotes often from the War Rule Scroll as if it were already scripural (i.e. god-breathed, sacred scriptures, able to defile the hands...) & quotes from the same antiGentile War Hymns (which begin with the phrase 'sing unto YHWH a NEW SONG' -
Look up the 9 NEW SONGs (or New Psalms) i.e. War Hymns in the Hebrew 'bible' (in whatever mangled version , whether the Masoretic, or the text family used by the translators of the Greek LXX Septuaginta, or in the Peshtta or in Aquila or Symmachus or Theodotion etc.) these NEW PSLAMS ALL have to do with wiping out the Goyim (i.e. gentiles) in some kind of Jihadist Ziionist Final Holy War - the attitude of the writer of 'Revelation' echoes this War Scroll again and again and again and again and again.
To quote fragments of the War Scroll know what you are quoting !!
edit on 19-1-2012 by Sigismundus because: stuttering commputerrrrr
But even so the ancients and the saints were all quoting from scrolls or books that we do not have full versions today that predate 350 AD but many
manuscripts have been found to prove a Christ existed as a person. The writings of the disciples all say they had scrolls based on what they taught
and believed.
The most reliable written language of the Bible is Hebrew and Greek because of the matrix of the text, where letters and numbers have values unlike Latin which is not as reliable.
Then it has to be edited based on the structure of the writing and links of the writers who said they were inspired by spirit or spoke to God directly and I think the person has to be male because of the original sin situation.
Each book contains links that were put together, if there were other books in between, God would have included them and most importantly Jesus would have mentioned those including links to other writers and prophets. Although other books are mentioned like the Annuls and Enoch they were never part of whole message for different reasons.
The books all quotes events of that time period not afterwards, unless it is prophecy, the language used is always from that time period, predicted events like the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem state beforehand the events and only Jesus could do that without using symbolic visions other prophets were in spirit who had the visions which will only make sense many years later.
Then you have Jewish scribes who copy everything precisely somewhere in History so they must have been using an ancient language style that is said to be similar to the dead sea scrolls even so D.S.S are not works inspired by God or say they have that authority but are rather historical documents that help prove some ancient text styles, preservation style, important people and any other beliefs of those times.
I'm not put off either way because for me scripture goes deeper than just a fairy tale as modern times paint it, I am inspired by the patterns and prophecies and usual enemies of the faith itself who have been predicted in their natures, international and tribal conflicts which happen today and pattern of spiritual attack while yet we are living in a time where everything the Bible predicts can come true from every conspiracy on ATS to the Middle East conflicts and the recent for the sake of history WW2 events which again point patterns to an end time ant-Christ figure which was defeated and many others who have risen in similar spirit to try and destroy Israel, Christianity and Israel in the very same way it says they would.
I have other things on my mind for ATS which I need to get out because with the situation of Iran which sounds very Biblical prophecy I need to consentrate on that rather than be diverted here.
The most reliable written language of the Bible is Hebrew and Greek because of the matrix of the text, where letters and numbers have values unlike Latin which is not as reliable.
Then it has to be edited based on the structure of the writing and links of the writers who said they were inspired by spirit or spoke to God directly and I think the person has to be male because of the original sin situation.
Each book contains links that were put together, if there were other books in between, God would have included them and most importantly Jesus would have mentioned those including links to other writers and prophets. Although other books are mentioned like the Annuls and Enoch they were never part of whole message for different reasons.
The books all quotes events of that time period not afterwards, unless it is prophecy, the language used is always from that time period, predicted events like the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem state beforehand the events and only Jesus could do that without using symbolic visions other prophets were in spirit who had the visions which will only make sense many years later.
Then you have Jewish scribes who copy everything precisely somewhere in History so they must have been using an ancient language style that is said to be similar to the dead sea scrolls even so D.S.S are not works inspired by God or say they have that authority but are rather historical documents that help prove some ancient text styles, preservation style, important people and any other beliefs of those times.
I'm not put off either way because for me scripture goes deeper than just a fairy tale as modern times paint it, I am inspired by the patterns and prophecies and usual enemies of the faith itself who have been predicted in their natures, international and tribal conflicts which happen today and pattern of spiritual attack while yet we are living in a time where everything the Bible predicts can come true from every conspiracy on ATS to the Middle East conflicts and the recent for the sake of history WW2 events which again point patterns to an end time ant-Christ figure which was defeated and many others who have risen in similar spirit to try and destroy Israel, Christianity and Israel in the very same way it says they would.
I have other things on my mind for ATS which I need to get out because with the situation of Iran which sounds very Biblical prophecy I need to consentrate on that rather than be diverted here.
edit on 20-1-2012 by The time lord because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Stormdancer777
Hi again, StormDancer:
Ref your rather mis-informed LINK to 4Q285 No. 5 and its concomitant pseudo-scholarly discussion which you quoted in order to try (in vain) to prove that the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters were looking for a ‘Pierced’ Messiah, viz.
books.google.com... #v=onepage&q=The%20Crucified%20Messiah%20Scroll&f=false
As I stated earlier, this fragment is part of end of the War Scroll at Qumran dated between BCE 40 & 15 CE = 1QM – i.e. Sefer HaMilkhama) showing that ‘in the Last Days’ the Messiah of Yisro’el (‘the Prince of the Congregation of the Righteous ones’) will ‘put to death’ (i.e. slay) the King of the Kittim (i.e. the Goyim / non-Jews / Gentiles) before ordering the ritual disposal of the slain corpses of the gentiles – not the other way around !
Recent ultra-violet examination of the fragment has revealed a few more consonants to the text (the Hebrew / Aramaic MSS at Qumran were written without vowel ‘pointings’ – which can allow for more than one reading as all the Greek translations of the LXX Septuaginta, Aquila, Symmachus, Theodotion etal. show) now proves that the correct translation supported by modern Dead Sea Scroll scholars (e.g. Dr Lawrence Shiffman, or Dr Fiorntino GarciaMartinez etal. ) read the text commenting on proto-Isaiah 10:34 to 11:1 as follows:
4Q285 no. 5 – from the Final Sections of The War Scroll (1QM)
‘At t[hat time sh]all a[rise the Prince of the Congreg]ation, even as it is written in the Scroll of the Book of the Prophet Isaiah:
“In t[hat Da]y the Thickets of the Fo[rest shall be cut down with the Ax, and ] with all of its majestic Trees shall likewise fall. “
Then a Shoot shall rise from the Stump of Jesse, yea, a NAZIR (i.e. Branch) shall grow out of his Roots who is the Branch of David. Then shall all the Forces of Belia’l be judge[d at onc]e when the King of the Kittim (i.e. goyim non-Jews) hims[elf shall] stand in the Judgment.
Then the Leader of th[e righteous N]ation, even the Branch of David shall put the King of the Kittim to death. Then shall qol-Yisro’el (=’all Israel’) come forth with Singing & Dancing wi[th Timb]rels & Dru[ms.
Th[en the H]igh Priest shall command them to ritually-purify their bodies from the un[clean gui]lty blood of the Corpses of the all the slain Kittim (= goyim, non-Jews).
Then shall all the people rejoice and sing Ps[alms of Vic]tory over the sla]in to the Holy O[ne of Isr]ael…”
Certainly we have come A LONG WAY from the earlier pre-ultra violet light translations of this fragment since the 1970s !!
The mis-interpreted Hebrew word that led your pseudo-scholarly LINK astray was MECHOLLOT (see Exod. 15:20) meaning ‘victory Dances’ not the verb ‘Pierced’ (MECHOLLAL) according to the latest ultra-violet readings which reveal the correct consonants of this Fragment.
The fact that the Final Defeat of the Goyim (non Jews, aka Kittim) in the Zionist Anti Gentile Jihadist Final War of the ‘chosen people of YHWH’ is accompanied by Victory Psalms derives from reference to war-oracles in the Aramaic Targum to Isaiah 30:32, viz.
“Every stroke that YHWH lays on the Gentiles with his punishing Rod will be accompanied by the Music of Ttambourines & Harps, as he fights them in the Battle with the blows of his right-Arm.
The Sacrificial Altar for them has long been prepared, ready to receive the corpse of the King of the Gentiles :
Yea, its fire pit is deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; in that Day, the breath of YHWH will be a stream of burning Sulfur, which will set it ablaze….”
This is the reason why the WAR SCROLL at Qumran is so full of Ritual Singing Psalms of Victory over the Goyim especially towards the end of the text (e..g. 1QM col 19)
“And they shall sing a Hymn of Victory in that days, chanting: Rejoice Zion ! Keep your gates open night and day, never to be closed that the Armies of the gentiles might be brought captive into you in chains !
Yea the Kings of the Goyim shall serve you & all of your Oppressors shall fall down before your face[s] to lick the dust of your feet ! Therefore Rejoice, Daughters of my people !
Bedeck youself with the Jewels of the conquered Goyim in the day when you shall rule over them ! Sovereignty be to YHWH & Everlasting Dominion to Israel…”
The same kind of Zionist Jihad AntiGentile Warrior Messiah hate-language can be found in the ‘Apocalypse of Yohanon the Seer’ (aka 'Book of Revelation') which is similarly dedicated to Jihadist War against the Goyim in the Last Days when the Daviddic Warrior Messiah shall ‘slay the Gentiles with the Breath of his Lips, even from the Sharp Double Edged Sword dangling from his mouth; he shall crush them in splinters..."
Hi again, StormDancer:
Ref your rather mis-informed LINK to 4Q285 No. 5 and its concomitant pseudo-scholarly discussion which you quoted in order to try (in vain) to prove that the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters were looking for a ‘Pierced’ Messiah, viz.
books.google.com... #v=onepage&q=The%20Crucified%20Messiah%20Scroll&f=false
As I stated earlier, this fragment is part of end of the War Scroll at Qumran dated between BCE 40 & 15 CE = 1QM – i.e. Sefer HaMilkhama) showing that ‘in the Last Days’ the Messiah of Yisro’el (‘the Prince of the Congregation of the Righteous ones’) will ‘put to death’ (i.e. slay) the King of the Kittim (i.e. the Goyim / non-Jews / Gentiles) before ordering the ritual disposal of the slain corpses of the gentiles – not the other way around !
Recent ultra-violet examination of the fragment has revealed a few more consonants to the text (the Hebrew / Aramaic MSS at Qumran were written without vowel ‘pointings’ – which can allow for more than one reading as all the Greek translations of the LXX Septuaginta, Aquila, Symmachus, Theodotion etal. show) now proves that the correct translation supported by modern Dead Sea Scroll scholars (e.g. Dr Lawrence Shiffman, or Dr Fiorntino GarciaMartinez etal. ) read the text commenting on proto-Isaiah 10:34 to 11:1 as follows:
4Q285 no. 5 – from the Final Sections of The War Scroll (1QM)
‘At t[hat time sh]all a[rise the Prince of the Congreg]ation, even as it is written in the Scroll of the Book of the Prophet Isaiah:
“In t[hat Da]y the Thickets of the Fo[rest shall be cut down with the Ax, and ] with all of its majestic Trees shall likewise fall. “
Then a Shoot shall rise from the Stump of Jesse, yea, a NAZIR (i.e. Branch) shall grow out of his Roots who is the Branch of David. Then shall all the Forces of Belia’l be judge[d at onc]e when the King of the Kittim (i.e. goyim non-Jews) hims[elf shall] stand in the Judgment.
Then the Leader of th[e righteous N]ation, even the Branch of David shall put the King of the Kittim to death. Then shall qol-Yisro’el (=’all Israel’) come forth with Singing & Dancing wi[th Timb]rels & Dru[ms.
Th[en the H]igh Priest shall command them to ritually-purify their bodies from the un[clean gui]lty blood of the Corpses of the all the slain Kittim (= goyim, non-Jews).
Then shall all the people rejoice and sing Ps[alms of Vic]tory over the sla]in to the Holy O[ne of Isr]ael…”
Certainly we have come A LONG WAY from the earlier pre-ultra violet light translations of this fragment since the 1970s !!
The mis-interpreted Hebrew word that led your pseudo-scholarly LINK astray was MECHOLLOT (see Exod. 15:20) meaning ‘victory Dances’ not the verb ‘Pierced’ (MECHOLLAL) according to the latest ultra-violet readings which reveal the correct consonants of this Fragment.
The fact that the Final Defeat of the Goyim (non Jews, aka Kittim) in the Zionist Anti Gentile Jihadist Final War of the ‘chosen people of YHWH’ is accompanied by Victory Psalms derives from reference to war-oracles in the Aramaic Targum to Isaiah 30:32, viz.
“Every stroke that YHWH lays on the Gentiles with his punishing Rod will be accompanied by the Music of Ttambourines & Harps, as he fights them in the Battle with the blows of his right-Arm.
The Sacrificial Altar for them has long been prepared, ready to receive the corpse of the King of the Gentiles :
Yea, its fire pit is deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; in that Day, the breath of YHWH will be a stream of burning Sulfur, which will set it ablaze….”
This is the reason why the WAR SCROLL at Qumran is so full of Ritual Singing Psalms of Victory over the Goyim especially towards the end of the text (e..g. 1QM col 19)
“And they shall sing a Hymn of Victory in that days, chanting: Rejoice Zion ! Keep your gates open night and day, never to be closed that the Armies of the gentiles might be brought captive into you in chains !
Yea the Kings of the Goyim shall serve you & all of your Oppressors shall fall down before your face[s] to lick the dust of your feet ! Therefore Rejoice, Daughters of my people !
Bedeck youself with the Jewels of the conquered Goyim in the day when you shall rule over them ! Sovereignty be to YHWH & Everlasting Dominion to Israel…”
The same kind of Zionist Jihad AntiGentile Warrior Messiah hate-language can be found in the ‘Apocalypse of Yohanon the Seer’ (aka 'Book of Revelation') which is similarly dedicated to Jihadist War against the Goyim in the Last Days when the Daviddic Warrior Messiah shall ‘slay the Gentiles with the Breath of his Lips, even from the Sharp Double Edged Sword dangling from his mouth; he shall crush them in splinters..."
reply to post by Stormdancer777
Hi again, StormDancer:
Here are some more Gentile hating Zionist Jihad War Scroll type passages that are found in the mangled Greek texts of the so-called Book of Revelation, which was compiled from ‘Hebrew & Aramaic scriptures, during the middle of the 1st Failed Jewish War (fought between CE 66-72) against Rome around the year c. 69 BCE (i.e. during a lull in the War following the death of the ‘divine’ Emperor Nero which gave the Jews hope to ‘defeat the Gentile Occupiers of the Land of Yisroel ’)
which of course is a mangled text (with only few major MSS to support any reading) in baby Greek 'full of grammatical Greek howlers' (C.K. Barrett) which likewise does not see anything like a 'conquered' or 'slain' or ‘pierced’ Messiah, but rather envisages more of a Victorious Warrior Messiah who shall rule over the Goyim (i.e. Gentiles / non-Jews) with a Rod of Iron and Dash them in Pieces Like a Potter’s Vessel following the Final Battle against them:
See Rev. Chapter 19
Then behold I saw the Heavens laid open
and lo, a White Stallion,
And behold, I saw One who Sat Upon
And his name was called ‘Faithful’ and ‘True’
In that he shall Judge Justly
To Wage War against the Gentiles.
And lo, his eyes are like blazing fire,
And upon his head are set the Multiple Crown
And he had a Secret Name given to him
Which was known to no son of man but himself.
And lo, his Robe is dipped in Blood
Engraved with the Name Debir-EL (‘the Oracle of EL’).
And lo, I saw the The Heavenly Armies
And behold, they were following behind him
Being led into the Fray of Battle.
And lo, they began to form Columns
And rode forth upon White Stallions
Each dressed in ritually-pure, White Linen.
And out of his mouth dangled a Sword
Even the Sharp Double Edged weapon
With which he will use in the Last Days.
In that Day when he shall wipe out the Goyim
And shall begin to rule as King over them
Even with an iron Scepter.
The same shall tread the Winepress
Even the Indignation of the Wrath of EL Elyon .
And on his Robe he has Names engraved upon it.
And I read it, I AM THE KING OF KINGS
And upon his Thigh he has the name engraved
I AM THE LORD OF LORDS.
And I saw an angel standing in the Sun,
And he began to thunder in a loud voice
Even to all the Flying Birds of the Air chanting
"Come, gather yourselves together
Even for the great feast of YHWH
And eat the flesh of the kings of the Gentiles !
That you may devour the blood of generals,
And swallow the bones of mighty men,
And glut yourselves of Horses and their Riders !
Even to devour all the Flesh of the Gentiles
And of the Peoples free and slave,
And the goyim, both small and great."
Then behold, I saw the Beast
Accompanied by all the Kings of the earth
And their armies were attached to them!
And lo, they were gathered together to wage holy War
Even against the Armies of the Righteous ones
And against Him who sat upon the Stallion.
Then, behold, the Beast was captured
Even by the Rider of the White Stallion
In the Midst of the fray of Battle:
And captured too was the False prophet
Even he who performed the Miracles
And the wondrous Signs performed under him.
For by means of these signs
He was able to delude the Many
Even those branded with the Mark of the Beast.
The same who fell down to worship his Idol
And who had the Number of his Name
Even burned into their flesh.
And behold, both of them were thrown down
Even while still alive into Lake of Fire
Boiling hot with the smell of burning Sulfur.
And lo, the rest were likewise slain
And thrown also into the Pit of Fire
Even by the Rider on the White Stallion….”
This kind of Jihadist 'Osama Bin laden' type anti gentile Holy War hatred language fits in well with what the War Scroll says in many other parts of the 10-fragment Hebrew text (e.g. 1QM – col. 4:5)
“In that Day, the Prince of the Congregation will defeat the ritually impure guilty Gentiles and shall chase them as far as the shores of the Mediterranean Sea.
Then the Kings of the Goyim shall all flee in Terror before the face[s] of Israel.
Then the Prince of the Co[ngregation, even the Bran]ch (NAZIR) of Dav[id shall summon the Armie]s of all the Sons [of Light against them in hot] pursuit, and will make a firm stand against them.
Then the armies of EL shall array themselves for Battle.
And after they have slain them all with great carnage, the priests will b[low the Trumpets a]nd sound th[e Alarm for Ret]reat and command that they return back to t[he Land of Is]rael, marching back over dry land in that Day…”
Is this all news to you?
Hi again, StormDancer:
Here are some more Gentile hating Zionist Jihad War Scroll type passages that are found in the mangled Greek texts of the so-called Book of Revelation, which was compiled from ‘Hebrew & Aramaic scriptures, during the middle of the 1st Failed Jewish War (fought between CE 66-72) against Rome around the year c. 69 BCE (i.e. during a lull in the War following the death of the ‘divine’ Emperor Nero which gave the Jews hope to ‘defeat the Gentile Occupiers of the Land of Yisroel ’)
which of course is a mangled text (with only few major MSS to support any reading) in baby Greek 'full of grammatical Greek howlers' (C.K. Barrett) which likewise does not see anything like a 'conquered' or 'slain' or ‘pierced’ Messiah, but rather envisages more of a Victorious Warrior Messiah who shall rule over the Goyim (i.e. Gentiles / non-Jews) with a Rod of Iron and Dash them in Pieces Like a Potter’s Vessel following the Final Battle against them:
See Rev. Chapter 19
Then behold I saw the Heavens laid open
and lo, a White Stallion,
And behold, I saw One who Sat Upon
And his name was called ‘Faithful’ and ‘True’
In that he shall Judge Justly
To Wage War against the Gentiles.
And lo, his eyes are like blazing fire,
And upon his head are set the Multiple Crown
And he had a Secret Name given to him
Which was known to no son of man but himself.
And lo, his Robe is dipped in Blood
Engraved with the Name Debir-EL (‘the Oracle of EL’).
And lo, I saw the The Heavenly Armies
And behold, they were following behind him
Being led into the Fray of Battle.
And lo, they began to form Columns
And rode forth upon White Stallions
Each dressed in ritually-pure, White Linen.
And out of his mouth dangled a Sword
Even the Sharp Double Edged weapon
With which he will use in the Last Days.
In that Day when he shall wipe out the Goyim
And shall begin to rule as King over them
Even with an iron Scepter.
The same shall tread the Winepress
Even the Indignation of the Wrath of EL Elyon .
And on his Robe he has Names engraved upon it.
And I read it, I AM THE KING OF KINGS
And upon his Thigh he has the name engraved
I AM THE LORD OF LORDS.
And I saw an angel standing in the Sun,
And he began to thunder in a loud voice
Even to all the Flying Birds of the Air chanting
"Come, gather yourselves together
Even for the great feast of YHWH
And eat the flesh of the kings of the Gentiles !
That you may devour the blood of generals,
And swallow the bones of mighty men,
And glut yourselves of Horses and their Riders !
Even to devour all the Flesh of the Gentiles
And of the Peoples free and slave,
And the goyim, both small and great."
Then behold, I saw the Beast
Accompanied by all the Kings of the earth
And their armies were attached to them!
And lo, they were gathered together to wage holy War
Even against the Armies of the Righteous ones
And against Him who sat upon the Stallion.
Then, behold, the Beast was captured
Even by the Rider of the White Stallion
In the Midst of the fray of Battle:
And captured too was the False prophet
Even he who performed the Miracles
And the wondrous Signs performed under him.
For by means of these signs
He was able to delude the Many
Even those branded with the Mark of the Beast.
The same who fell down to worship his Idol
And who had the Number of his Name
Even burned into their flesh.
And behold, both of them were thrown down
Even while still alive into Lake of Fire
Boiling hot with the smell of burning Sulfur.
And lo, the rest were likewise slain
And thrown also into the Pit of Fire
Even by the Rider on the White Stallion….”
This kind of Jihadist 'Osama Bin laden' type anti gentile Holy War hatred language fits in well with what the War Scroll says in many other parts of the 10-fragment Hebrew text (e.g. 1QM – col. 4:5)
“In that Day, the Prince of the Congregation will defeat the ritually impure guilty Gentiles and shall chase them as far as the shores of the Mediterranean Sea.
Then the Kings of the Goyim shall all flee in Terror before the face[s] of Israel.
Then the Prince of the Co[ngregation, even the Bran]ch (NAZIR) of Dav[id shall summon the Armie]s of all the Sons [of Light against them in hot] pursuit, and will make a firm stand against them.
Then the armies of EL shall array themselves for Battle.
And after they have slain them all with great carnage, the priests will b[low the Trumpets a]nd sound th[e Alarm for Ret]reat and command that they return back to t[he Land of Is]rael, marching back over dry land in that Day…”
Is this all news to you?
edit on 20-1-2012 by Sigismundus because: stuttering ccccommmputerr keeeyboarddd
I say better the devil you know, just go by your faith, see how it all patterns out, does it make you a better person, do you find that ancient man at
least wrote something and compiled something you can hold onto and be inspired with, that maybe they were not all in the dark ages and that man has
always had some form of degree level of knowledge or doctor level of intelligence all throughout history, look at some of ancient works like the
pyramids and the maths behind that and all the rest of the arts they had on them thousands of years before us, does that no inspire maybe there was
something more than barbaric tribes war and people who are no different today anyway. For all its worth its worth keeping your Bibles there are too
many clues to History, a lot of unsolved mystery within it and prophecies that are to come about with a good overall message to mankind.
There will aways be things in there we don't understand even in adult life which is a test to its interlectual properties.
I defintely believe corrupt or not that prophecy about the Mark of the Beast, one world governments, anti-religion takeover, Israel and Middle East tensions, the rise of maybe two other good prophets beforehand which are the witnesses and the lost tribes will always give us something to think about.
There will aways be things in there we don't understand even in adult life which is a test to its interlectual properties.
I defintely believe corrupt or not that prophecy about the Mark of the Beast, one world governments, anti-religion takeover, Israel and Middle East tensions, the rise of maybe two other good prophets beforehand which are the witnesses and the lost tribes will always give us something to think about.
reply to post by Sigismundus
It's new to me!!!! but in a good way. I love to study apocrypha, did you find this on a website or book? I would love to read more. Thanks. Great info!
It's new to me!!!! but in a good way. I love to study apocrypha, did you find this on a website or book? I would love to read more. Thanks. Great info!
reply to post by DivineFem
Hi Divina
This information I am imparting on these ATS threads are all the latest 'standard' modern scholarship - but generally very very new to most lay persons (i.e. non-scholars) - for some reason biblical scholars keep this kind of stuff far away from the masses - for whatever reasons !
The data is mostly cleaned from my own personal Lecture Notes (1977-1981) from my good ole British University days, but here are a few books to check out to get an idea of how the texts of the Hebrew (and later Christian) 'scriptures' morphed over time via hand written copies - plenty of opportunity to fudge with the texts.
What people generally DO NOT KNOW about all this, is the exact EXTENT to which these hand copied manuscripts were tampered with - and besides specialist scholars in the field, nobody is willing to share this information with the tithe giving public (including Rebbes, Pastors & Priests who make good livings off of tax free incomes from therr more or less blind-faith-sheeple...more's the pity !)
Check out some of these Books still in print to catch a glimpse of the hard facts of the matter of text changes in the 'bible' over time - which is STILL being kept from lay persons
'The Israelite Sammaritan Version of the Torah Compared with the Masoretic Text' by Sharon Sullivan & Benyamin Sedaka
www.goodreads.com...
This informative (and forbidden !!) book discusses in English and in GREAT DETAIL (via parallel columns of Text alla The 'Origen Hexapla' ) the more than 6,000 textual differences between the SamPent (Sammaritan Pentatuech) and the later 'received' Masoretic Text of the Torah used by Protestants and Rabinnic Jews to-dayy (some of these textual differerences are MASSIVE) in Genesis, Exodus, Leveticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy) , This format highlights the differences which normally are NEVER brought to the attenion of the general public...
www.goodreads.com...
Also check out some of the work by Rabinnic (Talmudic) scholar Dr Lawrence Schiffman who has in recent years devoted time to the Dead Sea Scrolls and how they foreshadow the contents of the Mishnah in places ('From Texts to Tradition', 'Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls for Judaeism' & 'The Hebrew Bible Course Guide' etc.)
www.goodreads.com...
www.goodreads.com...
Also: a very good TOOL would be the book entitled: 'The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible' ed. Martin Abegg etal. =
www.amazon.com...
'Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible' by Emanuel Tov
www.amazon.com...
Exploring the Origins of the Bible by Emanuel Tov
www.goodreads.com...
There are another 50 by a variety of notable biblical scholars in the field who have published some excellent books (most are still in print) which also show in excruciating detail how these ancient hand copied 'sacred' texts were tampered with over time and in different places - but again, this is a VERY CLOSED SHOP and persons like Randyss will forever be kept in the dark about the truth if they do not do a little homework on their own - beginning with learning how to read paleoHebrew and Aramaic as well as 1st century Koine Greek so they can actually (shock and awe !!!) see all the hard evidence for themselves up close and personal.
If any of these persons who are unacquainted with the facts of this matter bothered actually to look VERY CLOSELY at the material evidence (such as Dr Bart Ehrman did - to his utter Shock and Awe when he actually was able to view the material textual evidence up close for himself) they would be singing a wildly different tune than they ignorantly do...
And that means you too, Randyss !!
Hi Divina
This information I am imparting on these ATS threads are all the latest 'standard' modern scholarship - but generally very very new to most lay persons (i.e. non-scholars) - for some reason biblical scholars keep this kind of stuff far away from the masses - for whatever reasons !
The data is mostly cleaned from my own personal Lecture Notes (1977-1981) from my good ole British University days, but here are a few books to check out to get an idea of how the texts of the Hebrew (and later Christian) 'scriptures' morphed over time via hand written copies - plenty of opportunity to fudge with the texts.
What people generally DO NOT KNOW about all this, is the exact EXTENT to which these hand copied manuscripts were tampered with - and besides specialist scholars in the field, nobody is willing to share this information with the tithe giving public (including Rebbes, Pastors & Priests who make good livings off of tax free incomes from therr more or less blind-faith-sheeple...more's the pity !)
Check out some of these Books still in print to catch a glimpse of the hard facts of the matter of text changes in the 'bible' over time - which is STILL being kept from lay persons
'The Israelite Sammaritan Version of the Torah Compared with the Masoretic Text' by Sharon Sullivan & Benyamin Sedaka
www.goodreads.com...
This informative (and forbidden !!) book discusses in English and in GREAT DETAIL (via parallel columns of Text alla The 'Origen Hexapla' ) the more than 6,000 textual differences between the SamPent (Sammaritan Pentatuech) and the later 'received' Masoretic Text of the Torah used by Protestants and Rabinnic Jews to-dayy (some of these textual differerences are MASSIVE) in Genesis, Exodus, Leveticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy) , This format highlights the differences which normally are NEVER brought to the attenion of the general public...
www.goodreads.com...
Also check out some of the work by Rabinnic (Talmudic) scholar Dr Lawrence Schiffman who has in recent years devoted time to the Dead Sea Scrolls and how they foreshadow the contents of the Mishnah in places ('From Texts to Tradition', 'Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls for Judaeism' & 'The Hebrew Bible Course Guide' etc.)
www.goodreads.com...
www.goodreads.com...
Also: a very good TOOL would be the book entitled: 'The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible' ed. Martin Abegg etal. =
www.amazon.com...
'Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible' by Emanuel Tov
www.amazon.com...
Exploring the Origins of the Bible by Emanuel Tov
www.goodreads.com...
There are another 50 by a variety of notable biblical scholars in the field who have published some excellent books (most are still in print) which also show in excruciating detail how these ancient hand copied 'sacred' texts were tampered with over time and in different places - but again, this is a VERY CLOSED SHOP and persons like Randyss will forever be kept in the dark about the truth if they do not do a little homework on their own - beginning with learning how to read paleoHebrew and Aramaic as well as 1st century Koine Greek so they can actually (shock and awe !!!) see all the hard evidence for themselves up close and personal.
If any of these persons who are unacquainted with the facts of this matter bothered actually to look VERY CLOSELY at the material evidence (such as Dr Bart Ehrman did - to his utter Shock and Awe when he actually was able to view the material textual evidence up close for himself) they would be singing a wildly different tune than they ignorantly do...
And that means you too, Randyss !!
BUMP!
Mauro Biglino: Unexpected Bible - Translating it literally (1 of 6) - Eng. subs
Really interesting videos!!!!
Mauro Biglino: Unexpected Bible - Translating it literally (1 of 6) - Eng. subs
Really interesting videos!!!!
reply to post by Lilith27
As it goes with ATS. So it goes with this thread. The members are most definetly the quality. Thank you for your post Lilith. I can hardly take any credit for it myself except that I CREATED a board for this information to move thru. Yet I must say it's one of my proudest endeavors. Again thanks to each and every member who has contributed here in an intelligent way.
Namaste
As a theologian I find this thread very interesting.
As it goes with ATS. So it goes with this thread. The members are most definetly the quality. Thank you for your post Lilith. I can hardly take any credit for it myself except that I CREATED a board for this information to move thru. Yet I must say it's one of my proudest endeavors. Again thanks to each and every member who has contributed here in an intelligent way.
Namaste
But people are going to do, what they want to do. If the Bible has been changed it should be as easy as pie in your all seeing eye to prove. So don't just spray it when you say it. Prove it.
Wait...what? Of course the bible has been changed. You know that book that Protestants follow, hold on, I have the name on the tip of my tongue. Oh yeah, the King James VERSION. Notice how "version" is in all caps? Thats because its a different version than the "original". Why is it different? Oh yeah, there was this thing you probably heard of all through out grade school, its called the Protestant Reformation. It was that whole thing where people got fed up with the Catholic church and started their own sect. But of course you believe that we're still using the same bible as we were before the reformation. Oh yeah and the councils pretty much wrote the "original" bible, so now you know. i.e. council of nicaea.
For your proof, go read any general history book ever written...ever.
edit on 26-1-2012 by manbearpigisreal because: edit: i accidentally a
word
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