The Bible has been changed ( rewritten )

So either there is a God or there is not and I don't believe all we see and do in the here now is an empty dimension or planet that only offers loneliness to the earth. There are too many other things going on that defies explanation so I won't rest on godlessness as the final answer.

I wonder if the next move is Alienolgy, they are finding lots of planets, trouble looms across the globe, increase of natural disasters, nuclear leaks, earthquakes from the sea, manmade viruses to name a few, maybe Aliens will come down to help us, I wonder if its really alien in nature if that is the case because the stage is being set up that way.

If there is no exact version of a living God in precise written form as to his nature and rules but I still believe in God like many other millions do around the world then the situation is that whatever we were lead to believe we can never be judged by a Godly being for it being wrong, somewhere down the line someone other than the Billions out there has to put the blame on history on depending in which God was the right path to him.

Which then brings me to the Anti-Christ theory who will try and lead the world down his many paths and his mission will always make the real God an enemy to him, so either there is a right path or there is not, but can God really judge millions for their choosing a wrong sided faith because somewhere down the line Billions today have not got the right message? Maybe their judgements will be on their actions alone meaning the level playing field will always be that a Being like God would favour just out of faith alone many to live for eternity at some point in the infinite universe where all things are possible.

This coming from a God Being that sees all faiths telling it wrongly but it was not the fault of the masses, so on judgement day if there is such a thing it will be an open playing field of not putting so much blame on mankind, those who got it right in their faith and worked to keep it will have greater reward in their works along with their spiritual battles that could have become a loss in their beliefs to be rewarded with extra merits. Again the Bible describes Two Resurrections, one for the believers to rise first and the rest a thousand years later including the righteous man and people of good nature so in that logic that also makes spiritual sense.

At this rate all written faith has no pure evidence or accuracy or authority from a Godly being if that case is true, but by faith I say that even with the parts missing combine all the evidence of what has been found they fill the gaps from the original books, if not then something is not being said right out there. There was also Oral Traditions that would have helped fill in the gaps along the way that would have at some point combined the books and what was in them.

reply to post by The time lord


Hi Timely -

This thread is not about believe in the gods or in the god of the Jews or about any other god, e.g. Shiva or Mitra. It is about how and why the hand copied texts of both the Hebrew Bible and the Greek 'scriptures' have been tampered with by scribes over time, so stick to the Subject, if you would.

Having said this, now back to businesss...and for other persons on this thread who are likewise in the dark about the nuances of late 1st and early 2nd century Koine Greek and thus would not know what an accurate translation of a ‘biblical text’ from say, Greek into English is - and might even be ignorant enough actually to believe (albeit erroneously !) that 2 Timothy 3:15-16 actually does mean ‘all scripture is god-breathed’, I would have them reflect on a few facts about textual Greek MSS transmission in the 2nd to 5th centuries CE – e.g. that there were no punctuation marks between words nor even spaces between words or letters, so one must be very careful about the exact ‘context’ of any cluster of words in any text and not take words ‘out of context’ which is what you did with your citation of 2 Timothy 3:16.

For a better understanding of this non-Pauline set of verses, one must take into consideration the verse immediately before it to which it is linked: here is a translation of the majority text tradition (the word KAI in the Greek (‘ALSO’ or AND’) is missing from the Pe#ta and from the Ambrosiaster Greek Text (a Pauline Commentary) of c. 340 CE and from the Latin translations from another Greek family of texts, but the word KAI (‘also’) does appear in Codex Sinaiticus and in Codex Bezae Biglot and Codex Alexandrinus, so we have to assume that it must be meant to be there (1-2 Timothy are not found in Codex Vaticanus or the Codex Ephraemi or the Freer Codex – the Christian groups who copied out these texts did not hold either 1-2 Timothy or Titus to be ‘insspired-canonical scripture’ i.e. ‘god-breathed’).

But see the whole passage of 2 Timothy 3:15 and 3:16 in its present CONTEXT before jumping to any false conclusions about ‘scripture’ being ‘god breathed’:

I will translate the passsages in question it into modern American English a little more freer this time around, so you and others non conversant with Koine Greek might be aware of the form of the text as it now stands in the Greek 'majority readings' - e.g. in A, D & Aleph

καὶὅτιἀπὸ βρέφους[τὰ]ἱερὰyράμματαοἶδαςτὰδυνάμενάσεσοφίσαιεἰςσωτηρίανδιὰπίστεωςτῆςἐ ν χριστῶἰησοuπᾶσαγραφὴθεόπνευστοςκαὶὠφέλιμοςπρὸςδιδασκαλίανπρὸςἐλεγμόνπρ� �ς ἐπανόρθωσινπρὸςπαιδείαντὴνἐνδικαιοσύνῃἵναἄρτιοςᾖὁτοῦθεοῦἄνθρωποςπρὸς� �ᾶνἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος…

‘And remember from your earliest youth you have been shown sacred writings having power to make one Wise and leads one to Salvation – for every inspired-writing [most MSS add KAI here: ‘also’] has its own use for Teaching the Truth or for the Refutation of Errors, or for the Reformation of Manners, and for Discipline in right-Living, so that the man who belongs to Ho Theos (lit. ‘the god’) may be efficiently equipt for Mitzvot (lit. good works) of every kind.’

This emphasis on ‘Mitzvot’ (aka Heb. ‘Ma’aseh haTorah’, i.e. ‘commandments’ or ‘good works’ of the Law) is of course non-Pauline in its Nazorean theological bent and this whole passage is not Paul’s language – it is a part of a large block of some later additions in Greek, but IS very very very very similar to the kind of Koine Greek used by the school of Ignatius of Antioch (c. 115 CE) who did use this kind of language, syntax, vocabulary, sentence-length, Weltanschauung & phraseology &tc. (and is also loosely similar to the writings attributed to Clement of Rome c. 115 ....hmmmm – but the Saul-Paul who was responsible for the language in Romans and Galatians and 1 Thessalonians, never. It is NOT his Greek. Style of Utterance !).

In fact, 2 Timothy (known since at least 1850 !) seems to contain at least one genuine Pauline fragment embedded into it – with several non-Pauline later words, phrases & sentences added to make the letter much longer that it was originally.
Computer studies of the Greek language employed tested in the 1980s and 1990s bear this theory out very convincingly. So those persons who claim that Paul wrote 2 Timothy are both right & wrong. &those persons who claim that Paul did NOT write 2 Timothy are also both right and wrong…the Pastorals (1-2 Timothy and Titus) contain a lot of grey area for believers of Bible Inerrancy, or, as this thread is dedicated to, for persons who believe that the ‘Bible has changed’ in the course of its hand written transmission over time & place…

If you wish, I will post what modern computer models spit out as ‘genuine Pauline fragments’ in the larger Greek text of 2 Timothy to give you an idea of what modern biblical scholarship is up to these days !

reply to post by The time lord

Hi again, Timely -

Just a reminder: this particular ATS Thread is about the deliberate Tampering of hand copied ‘biblical texts’ by scribes over different times and places. It is not about belief in the gods or in YHWH the middle eastern clan-god of postExilic Judaeism or about belief in the god Dagon or Chemosh or the Goddess Asherah. So cut with the banal preaching, - and stick to the texts about which this thread pertains, will you please ?

Now then....you found it necessary to quote (albeit out of Context !) a snatchet of 2 Timothy 3:16 t – hopefully you understand more about the subject of FULL Contexts by reading my posts – if not, read them again and then again if necessary !!

As I mentioned, since long before 1850, it has been well-known by biblical scholars that the garbled text of 2 Timothy contains at least TWO distinct Greek writing styles - which modern computer technology has been able to separate ‘mathematically’ – the results are quite compelling and should be a Huge Warning to those ‘believers’ who assume (naively) that the early texts of the ‘Greek New Testament’ have not been violently tampered with over time – whereas there is ample hard evidence within the texts themselves to prove the contrary.

If we strip off the non-Pauline from the genuine Pauline fragments of the majority of the manuscript text versions, the tone of the letter is more personal and urgent, i.e. less reflective on long term theological points.

In other words, ‘the Bible has changed !’ and here is one small example of how hand copied texts can be forged, or more politely, altered in their transmission to future generations without anyone being the wiser – after all in antiquity, there were no printing presses or photocopiers or internet or digital cameras - in the case of ‘biblical’ texts, all one had were amateur (and later, more professional) ‘Christian’ scribes who had their own shall we say Agenda while copying any text in front of them…

SOME GENUINE PAULINE SENTENCES embedded in the Mangled Greek Majority Text of 2 Timothy:

“Paul, an Apostle of Christ Iesous to Timothy, Grace & Peace from the Father of our Lord Iesous Christ – I would have you not be ashamed of the Gospel of the Lord nor of me his prisoner, but to encourage you to partake of your own share of the Suffering for the Gospel, like a good solider of Christ – which is the reason for my own present situation, and yet I myself am not ashamed.

Therefore I would not have you be ashamed of me either even though the whole province of Asia has deserted me – including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

But may the Mercy of the Lord be on the house of Oenesiphoros ! For he alone was not ashamed to visit me, a prisoner of the state, and even took some pains to discover my exact whereabouts (in Rome?) and you already well-know the many services he rendered into us at Ephesus.

Not a single Soul came into the Courtroom to support me at the Preliminary Hearing of my Case - everyone has utterly abandoned me - but I pray that it not be held against them, for the Lord - may Glory be to him for ever, Amen ! - stood by me and gave me Strength, and thus I was rescued from the Lion’s Mouth. On the contrary Alexander the Copper-Smith did me a world of hurt when he violently contradicted my Testimony on the Stand – may the retribution of the Lord fall upon him in the Last Day ! – so, you be wary of him too.

At the present time, only Luke is by my side – I had to sent Tychios over to Ephesus, while Erastus is staying on at Corinth, with Crescens off to Galatia, and Titus still in Dalmatia – Trophimos was so sick that I had to leave him at Miletus - Demas ran back to Thessalonica, his heart too joined to this present World –

Only you it seems have been as loyal to me, my son, having stuck close by me step by step through so many persecutions and trials, not only at Antioch, but also at Iconium and Lystra, which the Lord also rescued me, each time, to which I never cease thanking God, and remembering you also in my Prayers night and day – being reminded of your pure faith which first dwelt in your Grandmother Lois and passed to your mother Eunice and now dwells in you through the laying on of hands.

Do make every effort to join me here as soon as you can (for I long to see you again & thus make my happiness compleat) and when you set out, see if you can bring the Cloak back with you that I had left with Carpos at Troas, and also all of my books – especially my private account books. See if you can find a way to get here before the Winter sets in for good.

Please send my greetings to Prisca & Aquilla & especially to the whole household of Oenesiphoros ! In the meantime, I send you greetings from Eubolos, Pudens, Linus & Claudia – & also from all the Brothers here. Grace be to you all !”

Clear as mud ?!

Maybe this thread like you say is the arguement of scripture, but where does it lead people like me, does it turn me into a skeptic? I doubt it, I would still use the Bible because what we think about this world and reality is not so black and white and I will always use the Bible somehow to make sense of things we barely see glimpses of and make sense of it.

The investigation is not over, we are still rediscovering history from it like it not.

They keep finding new evidence apparently the story is never over even the oldest copies have parts being found all the time.

My take on this as a conspiracy is, maybe the Truth is that Empires and people have tried to destroy the Truth of the Bible events from persecutions to burning books and Churches and laws against it that has been the constant story and it happens today.

What if it is the other way around, where many people even the interpretors do not want to tell the truth if not tried hard to try and destroy it, along the way history and modern times will unearth the Truth by discovering parts of the same Texts and books which is happenning all the time, even the omitted works that would never have made the final cut at least consists of related source because to be honest there were a lot of ancient books around even in ancient times but does not mean they were Canonical or were meant to be.

Is it true the Bible is the Best documented ancient book in History be it those who quote from it or are known enemies from it? Does not that question other religions too.

Fragment from world's oldest Bible found hidden in Egyptian monastery
www.independent.co.uk...

A British-based academic has uncovered a fragment of the world's oldest Bible hiding underneath the binding of an 18th-century book.

Nikolas Sarris spotted a previously unseen section of the Codex Sinaiticus, which dates from about AD350, as he was trawling through photographs of manuscripts in the library of St Catherine's Monastery in Egypt.

Mr Sarris later emailed Father Justin, the monastery's librarian, to suggest he take a closer look at the book binding. "Even if there is a one-in-a-million possibility that it could be a Sinaiticus fragment that has escaped our attention, I thought it would be best to say it rather than dismiss it."

Only a quarter of the fragment is visible through the book binding but after closer inspection, Father Justin was able to confirm that a previously unseen section of the Codex had indeed been found. The fragment is believed to be the beginning of Joshua, Chapter 1, Verse 10, in which Joshua admonishes the children of Israel as they enter the promised land.
Text

The larger picture could be that maybe either they don't want you to know about Christ and they throw away the evidence or they know about a Christ who is not written about as they say today and a conspiracy is to hide the truth in the form of a Da'Vinci Code type conspiracy.

reply to post by The time lord

Hi again, Timely--

The finding of a few random LXX Greek snippets of the book of Joshua in Codex Sinaiticus is always welcome news of course, but it adds nothing to our knowledge of texts since it was copied out c. 360 CE – and used the standard LXX Septuaginta text family - nothing new here.

As I mentioned, the Masoretic version (MT) of c. 960 CE is only ONE version (the LXX Greek version representing a translation of an older Hebrew consonantal VORLAG (source text) – so what scholars want more of are OLDER Hebrew texts that reflect the Vorlag Hebrew underlying the LXX Septuaginta, as well as the Greek versions of Symmachus or Theodotion or Aquilla – all three of these Greek texts from c. 140 CE translate a DIFFERENT Hebrew textual underlay.

As I mentioned also, the proto-Masoretic consonantal text version of the Hebrew scriptures was ONLY decided upon by Babylonian Rebbes who IMPOSED their OWN versions upon the tiny (and politically – religiously weak) Palestinian Jewish population in Eretz Yisro’el that managed to survive the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome in 70 CE - long after the Council of Javneh in 90 CE decided upon ONE version (the protoMasoretic) consonantal text. But the caves 1-11 of Qumran were time capsules which preserved copies going back to as early as 300 BCE

See the Qumran Dead Sea Scroll version of 1 Samuel 11 which preserves an OLDER original text : the masoretic version is garbled (still read by rabinnic Jews and Protestants as ‘holy scripture’

More proof that the supposedly ‘holy bible’ underwent massive textual changes prior to 90 CE...despite what Randys naively believes !!

reply to post by The time lord

Hi again Timely –

For those who are not familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls ‘bible’ - as promised, here is a translation into modern English of the ‘missing’ text of 1 Samuel 11:1-3 (not found in the Greek LXX Septuaginta except for 5 words at the end & missing altogether from the later Masoretic Text MT used in Protestant and rabinnic Jewish ‘bibles’:

The ‘Dead Sea Scrolls Bible’ is a rough delineation of all the recently discovered ‘alternative’ versions of hand copied Hebrew & Aramaic texts that were re-discovered beginning c. November 1946 sitting side by side in caves 1-11 at Qumran that often DO NOT MATCH the proto-Masoretic consonantal text letter for letter by up to 24% at times - nor do they match Hebrew consonant for Hebrew consonant the Vorlag (i.e. older Hebrew textual underlay Text sitting in front of a Greek translator) of the later Greek versions of the Old Testament that Origen bothered to compare closely in his HEXAPLA, e.g. the Alexandrian Greek Old Testament LXX Septuaginta from c. 350 – 300 BCE or the Hebrew consonantal text(s) used by Aquilla or Symmachus (c. 140 CE) or even the version used by Theodotion (c. 160 CE) when translating into Greek - Theodotion’s weird Greek text is even quoted word for word by the author of the Book of Revelation when he cites passages from Daniel & Deuteronomy ! –

The longer original Hebrew consonantal text of 1 Samuel chapter 11:1-3 was totally removed by later scribes from the Masoretic Consonantal Text fairly earluy on & is also 95% missing from the earlier Greek LXX Septuaginta of Alexandria (only capturing the final 4 words of text):

[And for those ‘blindly naïve bible-believers’ who believe every word their pastors, priests or rebbes tell them, the older Dead Sea Scroll copy (from Cave 4 at Qumran = 4QSamuel-a) is sitting right there in the היכל הספר‎ heikhal haSefer – ‘The Shrine of the Book’ Museum-Depository in Jerusalem…for all to see…!!!]

MISSING TEXT from LXX / MASORETIC VERSIONS of 1 SAMUEL 11:1-3 found at Qumran cave 4 (4QSamuel-a)

‘And Nahash, the ‘serpent’ King of the sons of Ammon was relentless in his attacks against the sons of Gad &the sons of Reuben – for he would gouge out the right-eyes of each captured prisoner & would not grant the sons of Yisro’el the possibility of a Ransom or Tribute payments by Treaty. No one was left among the sons of Yisro’el east of the Yordan whose right eye Nahash the ‘serpent’ King of the sons of Ammon had not dug out. However, there were 700 (7000?) fighting men who had managed to escape from the sons of Ammon, and had fled to Jabesh Gilead. Then about a month later….’

The LXX Greek Seputaginta manages to preserve part of the next half-phrase ‘Then a month later….’ But this partial phrase is TOTALLY missing (like the full text quoted / translated above into English) from the Masoretic Text of 1 Samuel chapter 11, read by Rabinnic Jews & Protestants today in their churches &synagogues – a full 1% of the text of 1 Samuel was therefore expunged by later scribes - ): so much for the inviolate holy text of ‘sacred scripture’ !

And this is only ONE tiny example of the shenanigans that scribes got up to when copying out ‘holy texts’ – from BCE 540 to 68 CE - the process was not so much exact copying of the texts in front of a copyist, but an active ‘interpretive process’ by the scribes as they wrote…which accounts for so many differences between later post-Javneh post 90 CE protoMasoretic consonantal versions & the Hebrew consonantal Vorlag textual underlay used by the Greek Alexandrian LXX Septuaginta scribal translators & the Hebrew - Aramaic older textual underlays used by Greek translators e.g. Symmachus or Aquila or Theodotion c. 140- 160 CE (all 3 of whom were translating post-Javneh 90 CE !! –must have caused a stir among the protoMasoretic proponents –if they bothered to read these Greek translations – for they would know at once that Symmachus and Co. were copying OTHER family of Hebrew consonantal texts than their ‘sacred’ Babylonian protoMasoretic versionwwhich eventually became ‘the standard received Hebrew text’ !!)

The evidence is finally being leaked out about all of this - largely thanks to persons such as the great Dr. Emanuel Tov & so many other brave scholars like him who, like it or not, keep finding evidence that the earliest text versions of the ‘Hebrew Scriptures’ were ‘far more fluid’ than previously supposed - or allowed to be known – & ditto for the 5770+ Greek MSS for the ‘Christian’ scriptures, many of which quote Theodotion’s Greek version(e.g. wwhen the Book of Revelation quotes Daniel or Deuteronomy !) or even something similar to Aquila’s weird Greek version (as in a few of ‘Matthew’s gospel’ citations of OT) & at other times the LXX Septuaginta– wherever it suits the purposes of the gospel writer, apparently !!

Even so some things from my own experiences that I would not fully explain here is that when I have used the Bible, repeated certain texts from it in the form of thought, held up crosses it has had an effect on people. Either it works or it does not but that is another story.

Either way there is something in the text that has an effect on people in ways we can not explain yet, maybe there is something that not even the writers know or are telling us and that for some reason what the scriptures hold is very holy or they have a spiritual effect .

reply to post by randyvs


I think you will find that even some of the most conservative Bible scholars admit that many changes have been made to both the texts of the NT and the OT.

In 1707, the Oxford Scholar John Mill, in possession of 100 ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament discovered many many changes. Upon a 30 year analysis he discovered over 30,000 variations and literary contradictions in the New Testament. Scholars are now in possession of about 5,700 ancient manuscripts of the New Testament and the variations recorded now number between 200-300 thousand. As one of the leading bible scholars, Professor Bart D Ehrman has noted; there are more variations in the New Testament texts than there are words in the New Testament itself.

Some of these changes seem to have found thier way into the texts at precise moments in history, when the alteration served a purpose. An example of this was when the adoptionists were a threat to Orthodoxy and Luke was changed from; "the heavens opened up and voice said, you are my son today I have begotten you," to "you are my son in whom I am well pleased." this change seems to have been due to the rise of the adoptionist Christian sects, so yes the bible has been changed.

If this is true I do not know,
they say that all the parts of the Bible fit when you add all the missing parts from people who quoted from the scrolls before the Bible as a book was put together.

Meaning if you go through all the research all the pieces fit together into the Bible we know today.

If this is true then so be it, if not then something is wrong where information is not being said either by those against the Bible in everyway or by a religious powers that have edited it.

There is a range of ancient manuscripts and quotes by people who predate even the oldest known Bible, the story is not always to prove Jesus is the Christ many others have written that this is the case before we even come to put the oldest Bible together.

You could make two Bibles, one that proves of what we have today out of the many text and other manuscripts found other than the oldest books and one that includes all disregarded books and missing text that would not make much of a religion when putting it together since Doubting Thomas and Judas are not exactly known for their faithful works.

I probably personally could not go through every ancient script in time to try and prove either way so will leave it to faith on this one, makes me a better person in this chaotic world either way.

Unless God is a time traveller and he updates his work all the time putting the timeline right.

reply to post by michaelsherlock


"Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him." --Isa. 3:11

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be
destroyed forever." --Ps. 92:7

"To me belongeth vengeance, and recompense; their foot shall slide in due time; for the day of their calamity
is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste." [--Deut. 32:35]

So at the end o the day. We count only the number of literary contradictions ? What about all the corrolatons ?
Can you tell me how many times the Bible corroborates itself ? Try reading it without all the disruptive knowledge
you possess. Because the act alone, of scrutinizing something that is so far and away above you. Is truely an insult to the Holy Spirit. It is sinful to scrutinize the only best example we have to loive by.

I was going to spellcheck but decided this should be a word.

Loive - encompassing all that humans both live and love.

I believe that the light of the truth imposes obligations on moral agents.

reply to post by The time lord

Hi again, Timely

You still seem dubious in our proofs that your modern Bibles read today in churches (in the US, mostly in bad English translations !) DO NOT ACCURATELY reflect earlier traditions of the Jesus Movement – or the texts read by the earliest Christians (c. 25 CE to 90 CE).

Why is that, do you think? Is it a case of deliberately NOT looking closely at all the hard evidence in front of your nose? If so…time for a RUDE awakening.

FYI (& for the education of other 'Christians' on this ATS thread who ONLY believe the half-truths their pastors tell them about the ‘‘canonical NT !), there are hundreds of ‘citations’ of words allegedly spoken by R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (Gk. Iesous) which DID not get into the ‘bible’ i.e. New Testament – but are quoted as "received tradition" by the ‘Bishops' (i.e. the fathers’) from earlier disciples and followers of ‘Jesus’ –

Have a look at what Iranaeus the Bishop of Lyones wrote (c. 180 CE) in his Adversus Haereses 5:333 –

“Now as the Elders used to recall, those who spoke with John, one of the 'Lord’s followers', said that he remembered how the 'Lord Jesus' taught his disciples, saying (=a Midrash on I Henoch 10:19),

‘The day is coming, and now is, when the Messiah shall be revealed to Yisro’el in the Tiqqun (‘Regeneration’), the land of Qol Yisro’el shall be tilled in Righteousness & be planted with trees of blessing and they shall plant vines on it: and the vine which they plant thereon shall yield wine in abundance, and as for all the seed which is sown thereon each measure (of it) shall bear a thousand, and each measure of olives shall yield ten presses of oil. when the Land of Yisro’el will yield its fruit 1000 fold, - yea, on a single vine will be 1000 branches and one branch shall produce 1000 clusters & one cluster shall yield 1000 grapes and one grape will yield an entire COR of Wine….& when one of the Holy Ones goes to take hold of one of the Clusters to press it in the Wine Press, another one of the Saints will shout to him, ‘No, but take hold of me instead and press me in the wine-vat, that the Holy One of Yisroel might be blessed through my act… “

These things also Papias, who often heard John speak & a friend of Polycarp, testified in the 4th Chapter of his book…“

The source of the allusions placed into the mouth of the Greek speaking Iesous here by Iranaeus and Papias step from various & sundry Apocalyptic texts which were widely quoted by ‘Iesous’ and his disciples in their preaching (see parallels in the Book of Revelation !)

For example, I Henoch chapter 10:19 (which the earliest Christians regarded as Sacred Writ, BUT IS NOT IN MODERN BIBLES) states:

“Then shall the Plant of Righteousness and Truth be revealed to Israel. and it shall prove a Blessing upon the land - the works of righteousness and truth shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore.

And then shall all the righteous escape &live unrtil they beget thousands of children & all the days of their youth up to their old age they shall complete in Peace.

For in that Day shall the land of Qol Yisroel be tilled in Righteousness &planted withTrees in Blessing & they shall plant Giant vines on it: and the Vine which they plant thereon shall yield Wine in abundance. And as for all the seed which is sown thereon each measure (of it) shall bear a thousand, and each measure of olives shall yield ten presses of oil.” --I Henoch 10:19

These words also have a typical literary ‘Rabbinic Last Days Exaggeration’ stamp on them (i.e. expansive miracles during the Last days when the Days of the Tiqqun usher in the Messiah – when the Sun will shine 7 times brighter than normal etc.) in other words, what became ‘canonical’ Hebrew Scriptures - here are some prophetic fantasies of the End Times according to Trito Isaiah (chapters 56-66) writing AFTER the Babylonian Exile, around 490 BCE

see Trito-Isaiah 60:17

In that day, in the place of Bronze you will have Gold,
and you shall have Silver in the place of Iron.
Instead of Wood I will bring you Bronze,
and in the place of Stones, you shall have Iron !
The Sun will no more be your light by day,
nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for YHWH will be your everlasting Light,
and your clan-god will be your glory.
Your Sun will never set upon you,
and your Moon will wane no more;
For YHWH will be your everlasting Light,
And your people will be Righteous
so they might possess the land of Yisro’el forever.
They are the shoot I have planted, the work of my hands,
For the Showcase of my Splendour:
Yea, the very Least of you will become a Thousand,
And the smallest among you shall become a Mighty Empire !"

Rabinnic Fantasy? yes - just like your claim that the 'Bible' is a unity is one of your fantasies !!

reply to post by randyvs


Heres the deal fighting over this point in its self brings you further from the concept of god. The point is when we were one with the concept of god we were beings beyond the boundaries of death bc we were one with all life and death is just a process of life, which of course is what the story of adam and eve represents. Guess what adam and eve werent worried about manuels on how to correctly become one with the notion of god, beings were just that, one, in the sense of body mind and all that surrounds us within the physical world and beyond. So clearly only spiritually retarded beings need physical representations of what it means to truley be a concious being with free will and the ability to colaborate thought, which of course creates an idea of self. That self which is your individual presence is ment to always be 100% connected to gods energy of creation which weaves all of reality together. If your lookin for answers in the physical realm you wil learn nothing, only they who can elevate their physical concious (to elevate ones conciousness is to except realtity truley and exponge all ties to mans physical fallen creation as well as all the resentments and negative aspects created through such a fallen design. In doing so your thoughts will bring you to truths that only enlightened beings can aquire) will ever understnad what the concept of heaven truley is, and its not a cloud castle in the sky that houses every being that ever lived a life in this universe, that way of thinking is just another example of spiritual ignorance. Thinking the end all leads to you maintaing a single physical form for all eternity, that is the belief of the fearful, those who lust physical life so much they have lost all sight of what is truley ment to be experienced outside of the bubble your kings of man have created for you to worship. Jesus did not die for your sin he died because of it. If an actual physical connection to the concept of god came and died for our sin it would have removed it from our physical form, our minds would of been purged by his "cleansing light" but none of that happened we continued to murder each other in his name which we have disected into so many fragments of understanding we lost sight of the true mission. If you want proof that religous documents have been manipulated just use common sense. The example i used about jesus dying bc of our sin is one of the verses said tohave been changed in the bible, to what everyone knows now which is he died for our sins. If we use logic though and say to our selves well hey jesus went around making everyones physical life better and passed on words of truth to help those forced into ignorance walk free of those bounds, why with his last breath would he not create a mircale which didnt just heal one mans mind but heal us all and free us from our evil thought process in physical life, which essentially would garentee you a place in what the "churches" concept of heaven is, because seeing how body and spirt are one, if our physical minds were to be cleansed then our souls would be saved. Thats not what the bible says though apparently our sins were forgiven and now as long as we say sorry to a priest we go to paradise bahahahahahahahahaha. Every spirtual leader of every religeon known to man has died they all pass on as we do bc we all reside in a world consumed by sin, these leaders like christ, mosses, muhamad they all tried to show man how to expand the mind from just fixating on a physical level, after thousands of years man is exactly where we left off , except now were cave men with cell phones.

I will still hold onto faith, like I said I can neither prove it or disprove it, translate or not, people for all different reasons find God or experience things that the scientific world can not prove or see and I believe that not all balls have been played out just yet on court.

But here is what you guys say and here is what other say, all in all I still believe in God of the Bible, experienced things and seen glimpses of things you should not but that is ok because it takes faith to even get that far into it.

Like it or not God still exists for me.

Here are what other people are saying on the internet, if it means that much that the ancient text is all wrong then write to them and find out for sure, I am too much of an amateur like the rest of them to know for sure so I guess your impact will be greater with them if you convince them rather than convincing me.
I will quote from this guy's site to see if he is telling the truth or not, if not write to these people since you both are experts.

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Manuscript Support for the
Bible's Reliability
by Ron Rhodes
Manuscript Evidence for the New Testament

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament.

These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity).

Bottom line: the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

The Variants in the New Testament Manuscripts Are Minimal
In the many thousands of manuscript copies we possess of the New Testament, scholars have discovered that there are some 150,000 "variants."

This may seem like a staggering figure to the uninformed mind.

But to those who study the issue, the numbers are not so damning as it may initially appear.

Indeed, a look at the hard evidence shows that the New Testament manuscripts are amazingly accurate and trustworthy.
To begin, we must emphasize that out of these 150,000 variants, 99 percent hold virtually no significance whatsoever.

Many of these variants simply involve a missing letter in a word; some involve reversing the order of two words (such as "Christ Jesus" instead of "Jesus Christ"); some may involve the absence of one or more insignificant words.

Really, when all the facts are put on the table, only about 50 of the variants have any real significance - and even then, no doctrine of the Christian faith or any moral commandment is effected by them.

For more than ninety-nine percent of the cases the original text can be reconstructed to a practical certainty.

Even in the few cases where some perplexity remains, this does not impinge on the meaning of Scripture to the point of clouding a tenet of the faith or a mandate of life.
Thus, in the Bible as we have it (and as it is conveyed to us through faithful translations) we do have for practical purposes the very Word of God, inasmuch as the manuscripts do convey to us the complete vital truth of the originals.

By practicing the science of textual criticism - comparing all the available manuscripts with each other - we can come to an assurance regarding what the original document must have said.

Let us suppose we have five manuscript copies of an original document that no longer exists. Each of the manuscript copies are different. Our goal is to compare the manuscript copies and ascertain what the original must have said. Here are the five copies:
Manuscript #1: Jesus Christ is the Savior of the whole worl.

Manuscript #2: Christ Jesus is the Savior of the whole world.

Manuscript #3: Jesus Christ s the Savior of the whole world.

Manuscript #4: Jesus Christ is th Savior of the whle world.

Manuscript #5: Jesus Christ is the Savor of the whole wrld.
Could you, by comparing the manuscript copies, ascertain what the original document said with a high degree of certainty that you are correct? Of course you could.

This illustration may be extremely simplistic, but a great majority of the 150,000 variants are solved by the above methodology.

By comparing the various manuscripts, all of which contain very minor differences like the above, it becomes fairly clear what the original must have said.

Most of the manuscript variations concern matters of spelling, word order, tenses, and the like; no single doctrine is affected by them in any way.

We must also emphasize that the sheer volume of manuscripts we possess greatly narrows the margin of doubt regarding what the original biblical document said.

If the number of [manuscripts] increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small.

Continued, I keep seeing people write these type of examples, either they are correct or they are just making it up too when it comes to cross references and translations.

home.earthlink.net...

Continued:
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The New Testament Versus Other Ancient Books
By comparing the manuscript support for the Bible with manuscript support for other ancient documents and books, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that no other ancient piece of literature can stand up to the Bible. Manuscript support for the Bible is unparalleled!

There are more [New Testament] manuscripts copied with greater accuracy and earlier dating than for any secular classic from antiquity.

Rene Pache adds, "The historical books of antiquity have a documentation infinitely less solid."

Dr. Benjamin Warfield concludes, "If we compare the present state of the text of the New Testament with that of no matter what other ancient work, we must...declare it marvelously exact."
Norman Geisler makes several key observations for our consideration:

No other book is even a close second to the Bible on either the number or early dating of the copies. The average secular work from antiquity survives on only a handful of manuscripts; the New Testament boasts thousands.

The average gap between the original composition and the earliest copy is over 1,000 years for other books.

The New Testament, however, has a fragment within one generation from its original composition, whole books within about 100 years from the time of the autograph [original manuscript], most of the New Testament in less than 200 years, and the entire New Testament within 250 years from the date of its completion.

The degree of accuracy of the copies is greater for the New Testament than for other books that can be compared. Most books do not survive with enough manuscripts that make comparison possible.
From this documentary evidence, then, it is clear that the New Testament writings are superior to comparable ancient writings. "The records for the New Testament are vastly more abundant, clearly more ancient, and considerably more accurate in their text."

Support for the New Testament from the Church Fathers
As noted at the beginning of this chapter, in addition to the many thousands of New Testament manuscripts, there are over 86,000 quotations of the New Testament in the early church fathers. There are also New Testament quotations in thousands of early church Lectionaries (worship books).

There are enough quotations from the early church fathers that even if we did not have a single copy of the Bible, scholars could still reconstruct all but 11 verses of the entire New Testament from material written within 150 to 200 years from the time of Christ.

Manuscript Evidence for the Old Testament
The Dead Sea Scrolls prove the accuracy of the transmission of the Bible.

In fact, in these scrolls discovered at Qumran in 1947, we have Old Testament manuscripts that date about a thousand years earlier (150 B.C.) than the other Old Testament manuscripts then in our possession (which dated to A.D. 900).

The significant thing is that when one compares the two sets of manuscripts, it is clear that they are essentially the same, with very few changes.

The fact that manuscripts separated by a thousand years are essentially the same indicates the incredible accuracy of the Old Testament's manuscript transmission.
A full copy of the Book of Isaiah was discovered at Qumran.

Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text.

The 5 percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling."
From manuscript discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls, Christians have undeniable evidence that today's Old Testament Scripture, for all practical purposes, is exactly the same as it was when originally inspired by God and recorded in the Bible.
Combine this with the massive amount of manuscript evidence we have for the New Testament, and it is clear that the Christian Bible is a trustworthy and reliable book.

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in going about their work.

These copyists knew they were duplicating God's Word, so they went to incredible lengths to prevent error from creeping into their work.

The scribes carefully counted every line, word, syllable, and letter to ensure accuracy.

Like I said it could still hold conspiracy between those who deny it or those who could be making it up so if the experts like to speak to each other they could solve a few problems, it is like two forces at work, either one moves ahead or the other strinks slowly.

Continued:
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home.earthlink.net...

God's Preservation of the Bible
The Westminster Confession declares: "The Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek, being immediately inspired by God and, by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them."

The Westminster Confession makes a very important point here.

The fact is, the God who had the power and sovereign control to inspire the Scriptures in the first place is surely going to continue to exercise His power and sovereign control in the preservation of Scripture.
Actually, God's preservational work is illustrated in the text of the Bible.

By examining how Christ viewed the Old Testament, we see that He had full confidence that the Scriptures He used had been faithfully preserved through the centuries.

Because Christ raised no doubts about the adequacy of the Scripture as His contemporaries knew them, we can safely assume that the first-century text of the Old Testament was a wholly adequate representation of the divine word originally given.

Jesus regarded the extant copies of His day as so approximate to the originals in their message that He appealed to those copies as authoritative.

The respect that Jesus and His apostles held for the extant Old Testament text is, at base, an expression of the confidence in God's providential preservation of the copies and translations as substantially identical with the inspired originals.
Hence, the Bible itself indicates that copies can faithfully reflect the original text and therefore function authoritatively.

Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries
P.O. Box 80087
Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688
____________________________________

Write to these people I might but they will tell me the skeptics are wrong anyway.

reply to post by VibratoryAgent


OMG I want to read what you wrote but that wall of words kills my eyes just to look at it. Please I will read it but man don't do that again partner. Don't you see how everyone else breaks up their posts ? That's excruciating to read.

You now have the first post I won't star.