OWS: ATS has your opinion changed?

reply to post by Unknown Soldier

The naysayers that say OWS needs to go after the right people I agree however wall street is a limb of the same monster.

Oh please do enlighten me. I wish for you to compare the two in greater detail.

reply to post by audioengineer



Oh so Wall Street is all sunshine and rainbows? Because one may/may not be as corrupt as the other it is no longer deemed relevant? Is that what you are trying to imply in your query ? Please tell me how great Wall Street is and those Bankers and how much they help America


Want to give them another bail out?

It's like comparing a kid who steals a candybar to a murderer.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by nenothtu

 

You already do live under collectivists, corporate ones.

How's that?

how do you think I live "under" corporate collectivists?

I guess I should just let it slide, since you obviously don't know me all that well.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Have your views, stance or opinions changed about OWS since OWS started?
If so, from what to what and why?

When I first heard about it, I was mildly interested but didn't think much of it. I figured it would die down in a few days, I didn't expect anything. After ten days or so I took a bit more notice.

Those tiny little streets in the financial district of NYC are like capillaries. That part of the city was laid out in the 17th and 18th century based on the tracks that wandering cattle made. It's noodly down in there, very easy to snarl up. Visions of molotov coctails, people trampled in stampedes down alleys, all kinds of similar things come easy...I started to think it would end badly.

Actually I'm shocked there hasn't been more significant violence for something this large and seemingly disorganized. Once again my pessimistic bias clouded my expectations. Have to work on that.

I don't agree with the theories that it began as a "leftist plot." I think in the beginning days (as in the beginning days of the Tea Party), there was a chance, a hope, that it could possibly be a truly grass-roots phenomenon, beyond ideology. But I think the co-option is well under way.

Recently they have started bickering about "identity issues"...race, gender, so on and so forth, unequivocally using the vocabulary of the ideological left. To me this is a great disappointment because it shows the process of hardening along ideolgical lines is probably too advanced to be reversed. Until recently I entertained hope that it could break out of the left-right paradigm but just like the Tea Party before it, it failed to do so. The pressure on it from all sides (right and left both) is enormous and its sad but understandable that it couldn't achieve purity in the way I would have liked to see.

Ultimately some sort of civil unrest in America seems a foregone conclusion to me and has for some time...we all knew this kind of thing was coming, didn't we...and I suspect it is not over. I think the left-right paradigm will not be able to contain the fundamental forces that are shifting underneath society. If this gets coopted to the left and made stale, another movement will break out trying to go beyond it. Society is about to become a lot rougher. I know Slayer is pretty well prepared...are the rest of you?

reply to post by nenothtu


Do you live in the United States? Actually do you live on earth?
If yes, you live under Big Business, Big Bank...Big whatever collectivists.

reply to post by sonnny1


Slowly I got the impression, that you are not really discussing with me, but only use some prepared arguments - no matter if they fit or not.

So you don't like OWS. Okay.
I won't pack my tent and fly over the ocean to take part in it. You just changed history!

Originally posted by zworld

Originally posted by psyop911
see? that's the establishment left gatekeeping talk right there.
and establishment left gatekeepers all over ows, like it's the second
coming of christ.

And your problem with that is......what?

well, left gatekeepers (most of them) never questioned the events of 9/11.
if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck it surely can't a bloody horse.
that's why the events of 9/11 are a universal litmus test. and so far, "officialy",
#ows failed that test. although, as far as i can see, there are many people
out there, at the protests, who do question the events of 9/11. but, "officialy",
9/11 isn't mentioned regarding #ows.

so, in one hand you have establishment left gatekeepers jumping the #ows
bandwagon within seconds, and on the other hand you have those same people
labelling 9/11 truthers as "crazies".

that's all.
oh, and thanks for reminding me that a bunch of hippies are a much better choice
than bloody halliburton. jeez louise, i never thought of that.

cheers.

I supported them from start. To me it doesn't matter if according to someone else's opinion their message is a misdirected because in my opinion they are on the right track. They have shown they are willing to put actions behind their words. So in my opinion their words hold more weight than someone behind a keyboard.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Do you live in the United States? Actually do you live on earth?
If yes, you live under Big Business, Big Bank...Big whatever collectivists.

If you say so.

I mean, it's YOUR world, so you get to make the rules. I just hang out here.

My part of it ain't so bad - I've yet to have the first corporatist or banker kick in my door. Hell I hardly ever even SEE those people - they're like Bigfoot. You know they're there, somewhere, because people say so, but they pretty much leave me alone, and have done since I cut them out of my loop. Not a ONE has been able to force his way back in so far. I'm certainly not "under" (i.e. "beneath", "subservient to", "beholden to", "dependent upon") any of them.

I've not done anything that anyone else can't do, all by his lonesome, without being crowded by a collective.

I'm just not getting how I'm supposed to believe that I live under their thumb just because you say so, but it MUST be true...

... after all, it's YOUR world, so you get to set the rules for the rest of us.

Originally posted by nenothtu

See ya on the battlefield, then. I don't like either of the choices you give, so I'm opting for a third choice. I'll be on the side against both of you - the socialists AND the fascists.

I'm not living under a collectivist regime of any kind - doesn't matter if it's socialist or fascist. As I've said before, I spent my youth fighting against 'em, and it looks more and more like I'm gonna die that way, too.

Fascism is nothing more than capitalism unchecked. That was stated repeatedly by Hitler. And right now that is the basic situation in America. You may think you're free, but try going against TPTB and see what happens. America is already a fascist government. They just depend on people like you to think that freedom still exists.

And I helped fight communism in the 80s through political and environmental actions. And continue today fighting issues in China and N. Korea. By the way, our military is basically a socialist program. When you enlist you are saying that you our going to defend the rights of all Americans. And you have joined the social pool.

And I am a rainbow warrior. We dont need no stinkin badges and we dont need to be violent. Its that silly Ghandi and King thing. But thanks for not trying to understand where I was coming from before wanting to do me in, which screams of fascism in and of itself. So much for being a freedom fighter.

Good article on the pros and cons and why its important to keep on keeping on. www.aljazeera.com...

It would be easy to dismiss these incidents as a potentially crippling disunity. On the contrary, I see it as a movement's growing pains, as people who previously had little meaningful interactions with one another are forced to hash out their differences en route to realising their similarities. This can only happen if we're actually talking with each other. Every city also had its share of typical passive-aggressive armchair activists or old-guard leftists, who dismissed the movement as a passing fad. Many of them had valid criticisms of OWS but had not spent one minute actually interacting with any protesters, nor had any interest in participating to change these conditions.

The thing is, when a sleeping giant awakes, it's going to mumble inarticulately. It'll still be letting go of the dreams it had while it was asleep. It'll probably need a good shower. The "99 per cent" might not yet resemble the actual 99 per cent, but I've come to realise that such a transformation doesn't happen without participation. Lastly, this whole Occupy thing isn't a new phenomenon. It might have taken a new form, but let's not forget that as long as classes have existed, there have been those who have dedicated their lives to organising around economic justice even before the news cameras started being pointed in their direction. In the words of a black protester at OWS, "We've already been occupying this s***".

By the time we reached New York for our final show of the tour on November 11, we had visited Occupy sites in 16 cities, each one completely different from another. Zuccotti Park seemed like a mashup of all these cities all at once, encompassing all the dopeness and the wackness of all the sites previously visited. There was a long line of folks waiting to get grub at the People's Kitchen, some of them arguing, while others reminded them to keep the peace. White anarchists walked around with laptops streaming live videos and yelling obscenities at the cops who patrolled silently. There were people gathered around a tree, meditating. Someone was passing out informational flyers while peddling their mixtape. Whatever snark I carried with me in the middle of this long tour suddenly dissipated.

So, the same question I carried on this eight-week tour remains: What is to be done? Dorli Rainey, the 84-year-old woman who was pepper-sprayed at Occupy Seattle by the Seattle Police Department referenced an old feminist slogan in her public statement: "Screw us and we multiply".

And with the coordinated efforts of city officials to screw the 'Occupy' movement, a multiplicity has been born. Zuccotti may have fallen, but before I left New York, I heard of 'Occupy' assemblies in Harlem, Queens and Brooklyn. When we started this tour, there was one 'Occupy' site. Now, it's in over a hundred cities and counting, with many college campuses joining. Everywhere, police are using violence to shut down sites under the guise of some law that says camping out overnight in public is against the law. Which is funny, 'cause I've never seen any police shut down a line of people camping out to buy the newest pair of Air Jordans.

Originally posted by Siddharta
reply to post by sonnny1

 

Slowly I got the impression, that you are not really discussing with me, but only use some prepared arguments - no matter if they fit or not.

So you don't like OWS. Okay.
I won't pack my tent and fly over the ocean to take part in it. You just changed history!

No I didnt prepare anything. Just speaking from the experience of living here.
Some people have conceptions,and misconceptions also.

I dont mind protesting either. Camping out is a whole other story.
OWS is a worldwide phenomena!(so the supporters say)
You wont have to pack your bags.........

Originally posted by zworld

Fascism is nothing more than capitalism unchecked.

Fascism is collectivist, same as communism and socialism. The very symbol of fascism, the fasces, is illustrative of that. A bundle of sticks, all bound together. There are those who would have us believe otherwise, that fascism is the logical development of capitalism, but it simply ain't so. What we have now economically isn't capitalist, regardless of claims made. It appears in most respects to be some monstrous hybrid.

That was stated repeatedly by Hitler. And right now that is the basic situation in America. You may think you're free, but try going against TPTB and see what happens. America is already a fascist government. They just depend on people like you to think that freedom still exists.n

You are mistaken. I KNOW I'm free. My freedom isn't dependent on a political or economic system. It's not a matter of "going against TPTB", they go against one another pretty well, and don't need my help. Why would I really waste my time in such an endeavor? It's more a matter of insuring they don't get in my way, and I've done pretty well at that. You can, too, assuming you have the willpower - and if you don't have the willpower, you can throw yourself against their walls all day and make no mark.

And I helped fight communism in the 80s through political and environmental actions.

I'd be interested in hearing how one "fights against communism through political and environmental actions". Most of the communists i ran into didn't much care about environmental factors unless they could somehow benefit from them. Bullets get their attention pretty quick, though, and they seem to be annoyed at the intrusions.

And continue today fighting issues in China and N. Korea. By the way, our military is basically a socialist program. When you enlist you are saying that you our going to defend the rights of all Americans. And you have joined the social pool.

I wouldn't know. I never enlisted. I was free-lance. I see socialists trying to make all sorts of thing into "social programs", sometimes rather creatively, in order to try to sell their product to the masses. Doesn't make it true, though.

And I am a rainbow warrior.

A WHAT?

What in the devil is a "rainbow warrior" Do they ride unicorns into battle, or what? There is only one kind of "warrior" - the kind who fights, and gets his hands bloody. All else are posers who just want to claim the term without doing the job.

We dont need no stinkin badges and we dont need to be violent. Its that silly Ghandi and King thing. But thanks for not trying to understand where I was coming from before wanting to do me in, which screams of fascism in and of itself. So much for being a freedom fighter.

What a concept! A "non-violent" warrior? Is that the kind that pokes flowers into the muzzles of the enemies, hoping the barrel obstruction will blow them up?

It's not you specifically that I want to "do in", so relax. Anyone attempting to foist themselves off on me or dictate the terms I will live by will, however, be dealt with roughly. If that ain't you, don't sweat it. Neither Ghandi nor King accomplished anything through non-violence. Read the history again, and this time pay attention to the fine print.

Call me "fascist" or whatever else you like. Makes no difference to me. Whatever label you care to apply will in no way change the actual contents.

Who is a "freedom fighter"? The folks who insist that they can tell you how to live, or the lone guy who tells them to piss off, he'll live any damned way he pleases?

reply to post by zworld


fascism is a form of socialism, just like communism is a form of socialism.
we are a socialist country, vacillating back and forth between a threatened complete take over by fascists and a complete take over by communists. if we point out that it's socialistic, either fascist or communistic in nature, they defend each other, because the bottom line is to keep it socialistic, whether it ends up fascist or communist. this is why it's so hard for us to talk to each other.

One thing I learned in a few years as a "freedom fighter" (what a pretty euphemism for something that is essentially all mud and blood!) is that you CAN NOT fight for another man's freedom - if he doesn't have the gumption to fight for his own, he'll never be free. He will ALWAYS be dependent on what others provide for him, whatever they offer.

Furthermore, the usual end result of the attempt is that the first thing the other folks will do with their newly acquired "freedom" is to attempt to abuse it in order to limit YOURS, forgetting altogether just WHO is the actual fighter, and WHO sat on the sidelines, waiting for someone else to give them something.

Sort of like the OWS "freedom fighters" who think they can take theirs from someone else without a fight, and limit, herd, and shear the rest of us in their grand social experiment. Something tells me it's not going to be as easy as they think.

Originally posted by nenothtu
One thing I learned in a few years as a "freedom fighter" (what a pretty euphemism for something that is essentially all mud and blood!) is that you CAN NOT fight for another man's freedom - if he doesn't have the gumption to fight for his own, he'll never be free. He will ALWAYS be dependent on what others provide for him, whatever they offer.

Furthermore, the usual end result of the attempt is that the first thing the other folks will do with their newly acquired "freedom" is to attempt to abuse it in order to limit YOURS, forgetting altogether just WHO is the actual fighter, and WHO sat on the sidelines, waiting for someone else to give them something.

Sort of like the OWS "freedom fighters" who think they can take theirs from someone else without a fight, and limit, herd, and shear the rest of us in their grand social experiment. Something tells me it's not going to be as easy as they think.

i don't even know how they could consider it an experiment since the experimenting was already done in the prior fascist and communist countries. one of the problems with fascism is that it tends to want to force its religion of choice on its citizens,and communism tends to want to kill you if you believe in religion. so you have a choice of being coerced into a religion you may not want or believe in or being killed because you believe in religion.

The biggest problem are the dogs. They think they are free and an important part of the group. They bark at anyone, they think could be an enemy.

Well done, dog!

Masters like dogs like you!

Go and get the stick!

Someone has to protect the honest sheep from the sheep in wolves clothing.

It takes a pretty good nose on a dog to tell the two apart and ferret out the bad.

The sheep themselves never know who the dogs master IS, for they are only sheep. Hell, they don't even know a wolf when they see one if it dresses like they do.

But the dog, HE knows whom he's looking out for, and which sheep are really wolves in disguise,

WOOF!

reply to post by nenothtu


I appreciate what you're bringing to this thread, esp. the true definition of Fascism


__________________________________________________________________

Have your views, stance or opinions changed about OWS since OWS started? If so, from what to what and why?

My views and stance have actually hardened in the fact that these protesters are full-circle destructive and selective in who they mob(frighten) .
The majority seem like mindless drones who find any excuse not to be truly productive.
Day of Rage/Occupy ______ (insert whatever comes to mind, lol) will become more destructive before, during and after the elections.

I feel terrible for the protesters who participated with a genuine heart, who hoped to have their voice and concerns heard but who's voices are drowned out by the mob .

The movement has become Occupy Fecal Matter and they are funded by the 1% they pretend to be against.
While most view it as an epic failure, the ptb applaud it and are setting up for the next level